One Satan Or Many?

[janderich]

I am sure opposition and challwnges make us stronger. I just dont believe we need Satan to make us stronger. The scriptures speak of a day when Satan and his works will be destroyed. So ifSatan is so good for making us stronger then why is God in the process of trying to defeat and destroy him and his works? What then? What happens when Satan and his angels are destroyed? Will Gods works cease or will he just continue to people worlds without end? Satan is tjus not a requirement for Gods works to continue.

Evil will never be entirely destroyed. It is necessary for growth. The Savior clarified:

 

For it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! (Matt 18:

Satan will be at one point disorganized but there will be another and another to take his place. Opposition is eternal.

[Storm Rider]

Evil will never be entirely destroyed. It is necessary for growth. The Savior clarified:

Satan will be at one point disorganized but there will be another and another to take his place. Opposition is eternal.

 

"Satan will be at one point disorganized but there will be another and another to take his place."  Where is this taught as doctrine of the Church?

[janderich]

"Satan will be at one point disorganized but there will be another and another to take his place."  Where is this taught as doctrine of the Church?

Doctrine.. to some this word is so narrowly defined that only what they believe is doctrine. But here are the words of scripture and Brigham Young: 

 

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he [Christ] also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil: and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (Hebrews 2:14-15)

 

Jesus says, he will DESTROY death and him that hath the power of it. What can you make of this but decomposition, the returning of the organized particles to their native element, after suffering the wrath of God until the time appointed. ...when the elements in and organized form do not fill the end of their creation they are thrown back again, like brother Kimball's old pottery ware, to be ground up, and made over again. (Brigham Young, JD 1:275-276)

As quoted in the very first post, each earth will have a tempter. When there is a new earth there will be another Satan. 

[Rob Osborn]

Not really buying into the "need" for a Satan in order for Gods works to progress.

[EllenMaksoud]

So do you think each world has it's own tempter/Satan or does Lucifer just go from world to world and that's his eternal job for each of Gods earths? I believe that each has it's own. Here's why.

 

--W/out quoting the temple there are some hints in there that Satan is not the only one up to no good!

 

--Question: A third of what? We know that a third of the hosts of heaven left and followed Lucifer. Ok...up to what point in time? God is always going to be creating worlds from now through eternity. So eventually all of the 2/3rds that were left in that war in heaven will have come to this earth or another one and will have moved on to resurrection. Then what? Will God's future spirits have another war in heaven? Or will he just say...."Well you can follow my proven plan or you can follow that idiot that rebelled a long time ago but who isn't here now to influence you one way or the other".

 

--Nah...I don't think so. I think God creates billions of spirits for one particular earth. He teaches them the plan of salvation and then WHEN and only WHEN one of them decides to rise up and become a devil, that's what triggers the creation of a new world and now the system is in place and can move forward. Maybe statistically it always happens sooner or later.

 

--Paradoxes....Satan still has agency. What if he just decided to stop being Satan? Not tempt anyone anymore. Not provide any opposition. Wouldn't that in and of itself thwart the plan? Of course to pull that off he'd have to convince all of the other devils to do the same thing. Maybe he won't ever do that though because the only little bit of pleasure he gets out of life is to cause pain in others (which is just what God needs for the opposition so it all works). Or...if he knows that this is his only chance to cause havoc and that he won't be moving onto another world that creates a sense of urgency to cause as much destruction as possible. It's now or never. That would ensure that he won't give up and quit. He's taking down as many as he can in the short time he has.

 

--Makes you wonder what Satan was thinking. Did he really believe he could take down God? Did he know what other Satan's had done before him and that they failed? Maybe he full well did know and just didn't care. His pride was so bad that he'd rather lose it all in as big of a fashion as possible VS humbling himself and doing what God wanted. He obviously was a very good salesman and had a lot of followers. That in and of itself must provide him with some pleasure, feelings of success, etc. He didn't want to give that up to conform to the system.

 

Who the heck knows. Brother Brigham seems to think that each earth has it's own though...

 

 

JD 14:70--He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Is it so on any other earth? On every earth. How many earths are there? I observed this morning that you may take the particles of matter composing this earth, and if they could be enumerated they would only be a beginning to the number of the creations of God; and they are continually coming into existence, and undergoing changes and passing through the same experience that we are passing through. Sin is upon every earth that ever was created, and if it was not so, I would like some philosophers to let us know how people can be exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fullness of glory with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof, in their turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through.

Go to the Bible and look at the accounts of the war in Heaven. I believe it says that 1/3 of the Angels fell in that time. There may be only one Lucifer but he has his minions. I don't think about these characters because I also believe that they can do nothing to me lest Heavenly Father allow it for my testing and instruction. ( Rev 12:7, Isaiah 14, Luke 10:18, Rev 9:1, Hebrews 12:22)

[Grundelwalken]

Not really buying into the "need" for a Satan in order for Gods works to progress.

I'm with Rob on this one. Who was it that tempted Satan? Didn't he decide for himself? We don't need someone to convince us to sin, we just need an alternate choice. MW

[Rob Osborn]

Opposition in all things refers to our ability to choose coupled with principle and law in place. In heaven before we came here we all were free to choose to receive the lightr reject the light. Lucifer happened to be an angel who had authority and was in charge of others. He held a high position. But, because he too had chouce decided to not receive further light and chose to be disobedient and fell because of his choices. The rebellion of Lucifer in heaven was not part of Gods plan to exalt us. Gods plans continue with or without Lucifer falling and becoming Satan. Its just that now there is more at stake- special conditions and circumstances. God will eventually destroy Satan and "all" his works. After that triumph God will still continue to peopke worlds and exalt his children. The big difference will be that Satan will not exist at that later date to try to frustrate Gods works. Just as I want to raise my children without evil influences so too does God wish to raise his children the same. Thus the charge and command to us to build Zion wherever we are so that Satan has no power to temptus.

[Calm]

Clarification, Rob.

Do you believe that on some other worlds they still fell on their own without anyone else tempting them?

Do you believe evil exists even in the absence of Satan?

There was some confusion, iirc, from a previous post where it seemed you may have believed this is the only world that fell.

[janderich]

Opposition in all things refers to our ability to choose coupled with principle and law in place. In heaven before we came here we all were free to choose to receive the lightr reject the light. Lucifer happened to be an angel who had authority and was in charge of others. He held a high position. But, because he too had chouce decided to not receive further light and chose to be disobedient and fell because of his choices. The rebellion of Lucifer in heaven was not part of Gods plan to exalt us. Gods plans continue with or without Lucifer falling and becoming Satan. Its just that now there is more at stake- special conditions and circumstances. God will eventually destroy Satan and "all" his works. After that triumph God will still continue to peopke worlds and exalt his children. The big difference will be that Satan will not exist at that later date to try to frustrate Gods works. Just as I want to raise my children without evil influences so too does God wish to raise his children the same. Thus the charge and command to us to build Zion wherever we are so that Satan has no power to temptus.

Is it not inevitable that given a choice some will rise and some will fall? Of those that fall, no doubt one will be more powerful than the others. This is Satan.

[Rob Osborn]

Clarification, Rob.

Do you believe that on some other worlds they still fell on their own without anyone else tempting them?

Do you believe evil exists even in the absence of Satan?

There was some confusion, iirc, from a previous post where it seemed you may have believed this is the only world that fell.

People will fall regardless of spmeone to tempt them. We have "natural" tendencies that cause each of us, on our own, to experiment and get into trouble.

This is the only world where this particular condition of Satan exists with so much evil.

[Rob Osborn]

Is it not inevitable that given a choice some will rise and some will fall? Of those that fall, no doubt one will be more powerful than the others. This is Satan.

Sure, but the conditions that led to Lucifer falling and the kingdom he built is like the difference between a few hooligan kids getting into trouble, perhaps stealing a car and going for a joy ride and a complete organized crime gang that tangles and weaves its dirty crimes into all parts of peoples lives and government, etc..

What I am saying is that disorganized small pockets of resistance is worlds of difference than a large secret society that tried to usurp the entire kingdom from the Father.

[Storm Rider]

We also believe that Jesus was a fallen angel; however, we do have a different understanding of what an angel is and is not.  Suffice it to say that they are not a different species.

 

Just as there is one Redeemer for all of God's creations it would make sense that there is one Satan; however, I don't think this is a major point.  We believe that while on this probationary period on earth we must choose to follow between the Light and the Dark.  True our carnal body comes with passions, but I think and believe that Satan tempts us and quickly finds where we are weakest. 

 

When we are no longer in this mortal experience we have no need for further opposition in all things; Satan is chained for a little while and then loosed one final time for the great war afterwards he and his minions are thrown into Outer Darkness and the Sons of Perdition will join them.

[Storm Rider]

That is not doctrine and has not been accepted as such.

 

I would say Outer Darkness could be described as being destroyed. 

[janderich]

Rob,

Here on earth their are limitations. For instance, up to this point in earth's history one cannot communicate and control and large body of people easily. But I put no such limitations in the eternal realm. Through the spirit God directs his work. I have no reason to suppose that wicked spirits cannot in some fashion be communicated with instantly and controlled. Following this line of reasoning we can remove the communication boundary, the time factor, and death. With no such constraints I see it as almost inevitable that the most wicked and powerful will rule.

Edited July 20, 2014 by janderich

[janderich]

Storm Rider said:

"That is not doctrine and has not been accepted as such. I would say Outer Darkness could be described as being destroyed."

 

It appears that the quote functionality in response to a post is not working correctly. However, I believe the above is directed at my statement. At any rate, as I alluded to, this term "doctrine" seems mostly to impose limits on discussion and to some extent thought. The church itself does not have well defined doctrine, nor should it in my opinion. Even a statement like, "the standard works are doctrine" create all sorts of problems.  

 

In the context of this discussion I could say that one redeemer for all of God's creations is not doctrine and I believe I would have a fairly firm foundation. Rather, it is more of a modern interpretation, but now generally accepted.    

[Storm Rider]

For some reason the quote function is not working on this new computer; it uses windows 8.1, which is the only thing I can think of at the moment.  If someone has an clue, please let me know.

 

Yes it is about creating limits.  Do state that something is church doctrine sets a definite boundary and lends credence to the statement.  To misapply it is to aggrandize something that does not deserve it.  What you did was call something a doctrine that is clearly not.  That does not limit the discussion, but it does create a parameter that personal logic, ideas, thoughts, are valid, but not sacrosanct. 

 

I prefer to define what is doctrine and what isn't.  I admit that I am a purist; if it is not in the Standard Works one may not say it is doctrine.  In those situations, as was done above, we state BY stated so and so or quote some other past Church President's, apostle's, etc. statement.  It keeps the conversation honest, remains valid, but does allows for the free exchange of ideas

 

Doctrine is doctrine and opinions, ideas, etc. are something else.

[janderich]

Storm Rider, I don't believe I said that Satan being disorganized was doctrine. At any rate, the word itself doesn't concern me. But I am concerned about accidentally or intentionally imposing limits to truth. Joseph said:

...I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief. HC 6:477

If I believe too much, so be it. Again he said:

The great thing for us to know is to comprehend what God did institute before the foundation of the world. Who knows it? It is the constitutional disposition of mankind to set up stakes and set bounds to the works and ways of the Almighty. … That which hath been hid from before the foundation of the world is revealed to babes and sucklings in the last days [see D&C 128:18]. HC 5:529-530

 

[rodheadlee]

IE 11 appears to be the problem with the quote function. I have to use Google Chrome if I want to quote somebody.