Salvation Vs. Exaltation

[JLHPROF]

The thread on Lucifer makes me really want to differentiate between salvation and exaltation.

 

I think pretty much everyone on this board understands the difference:

1. Salvation - to be saved (resurrected) or redeemed from death and the fall as opposed to lost (perdition) and remaining in death.

2. Exaltation - to be saved in a Celestial/Godly environment where we become like God.

 

I think pretty much everyone on this board understands the requirements for each:

1. Salvation - To fall under the atonement (where none are lost but the sons of perdition), and eventually accept of Christ all are resurrected (every knee shall bow and every tongue confess).  The wages of sin are death, so we either pay the price for our own sins to escape the grave (if that's even an option) or we accept Christ's atonement to escape the grave.

2. Exaltation - To enter into God's presence through Baptism and receive at some point all the laws  and ordinances of the gospel until we receive the highest degree and become celesital material.

 

So given these are generally accepted distinctions (with the usual semantic opinions sure to arise) why do we insist on mixing them up in our discussions and applying one when we mean the other?

And why do we not apply these distinct definitions to related doctrines and use specificity in scripture reading?

 

[Ahab]

Where's Rob?

Oh Rob!

He can explain his idea that we'll either be saved/exalted or sent into darkness to gnash our teeth in the cold better than I can.

[mnn727]

I agree with you, too many Mormons, even internet Mormons, say Salvation when they really mean Exaltation (which annoys me - maybe that's why they do it, to annoy me.)

[stemelbow]

The thread on Lucifer makes me really want to differentiate between salvation and exaltation.

 

I think pretty much everyone on this board understands the difference:

1. Salvation - to be saved (resurrected) or redeemed from death and the fall as opposed to lost (perdition) and remaining in death.

2. Exaltation - to be saved in a Celestial/Godly environment where we become like God.

 

I think pretty much everyone on this board understands the requirements for each:

1. Salvation - To fall under the atonement (where none are lost but the sons of perdition), and eventually accept of Christ all are resurrected (every knee shall bow and every tongue confess).  The wages of sin are death, so we either pay the price for our own sins to escape the grave (if that's even an option) or we accept Christ's atonement to escape the grave.

2. Exaltation - To enter into God's presence through Baptism and receive at some point all the laws  and ordinances of the gospel until we receive the highest degree and become celesital material.

 

So given these are generally accepted distinctions (with the usual semantic opinions sure to arise) why do we insist on mixing them up in our discussions and applying one when we mean the other?

And why do we not apply these distinct definitions to related doctrines and use specificity in scripture reading?

I think because there are about a thousand levels of each. When you say exaltation you mean the highest highest level of salvation or the lowest level of the highest kingdom? "well", says the respondent, "it's not really exaltation to be in the Celestial kingdom but lower than the toppest of the top". Then what is it, salvation like those in the Telestial? Nah...not that. we're all saved, except for some fools who decide to somehow side with Satan. Just say salvation since none of us know, except for Tom Phillips and a few others, that they'll be sitting in the highest of the high of the Celestial realm.

[stemelbow]

I agree with you, too many Mormons, even internet Mormons, say Salvation when they really mean Exaltation (which annoys me - maybe that's why they do it, to annoy me.)

yes we do! But mostly because there are thousands of salvations and one exaltation that, it seems, not many will actually make it to anyway.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I hope I'm exalted. That should be everyone's goal. Exaltation and eternal families.

[stemelbow]

VideoGameJunkie, on 14 Jul 2014 - 1:52 PM, said:

I hope I'm exalted. That should be everyone's goal. Exaltation and eternal families.

Everyone's goal, sure. But is it? Not now, most people don't have any sort of concept of exaltation. They're goal is to be nice and kindly, loving and helpful. You know stuff like that. Why can't we just keep it simple like that? 'Cause we've been cursed blessed with the knowledge of the gospel, of course.

[JLHPROF]

yes we do! But mostly because there are thousands of salvations and one exaltation that, it seems, not many will actually make it to anyway.

 

But I am not addressing the types of salvation (of which there are many as the stars in the heavens).  I am simply addressing the fact that the term salvation means "will be resurrected instead of going to perdition" aka saved instead of lost.

 

And after a tiring debate on the Lucifer thread, I got a little annoyed with people saying that Lucifer's plan wouldn't achieve this most basic law fulfillment because they want instead to apply the principle of atonement only to receiving Celestial glory instead of salvation.  That is not scriptural.

Edited July 14, 2014 by JLHPROF

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well I believe we should always shoot for the top.

[stemelbow]

But I am not addressing the types of salvation (of which there are many as the stars in the heavens).  I am simply addressing the fact that the term salvation means "will be resurrected instead of going to perdition" aka saved instead of lost.

 

And after a tiring debate on the Lucifer thread, I got a little annoyed with people saying that Lucifer's plan wouldn't achieve this most basic law fulfillment because they want instead to apply the principle of atonement only to receiving Celestial glory instead of salvation.  That is not scriptural.

 

Fine by me.  I was just responding to your question--why are the two words interchangeably and sometimes, often confused with each other.  Oh to add to the answer, it's also because the scriptures seem to interchangeably use the terms and concepts.  There's good precedent for people to do so.  We might as well jump on board.

[mormonnewb]

Fine by me.  I was just responding to your question--why are the two words interchangeably and sometimes, often confused with each other.  Oh to add to the answer, it's also because the scriptures seem to interchangeably use the terms and concepts.  There's good precedent for people to do so.  We might as well jump on board.

 

Besides, I'm not sure we really understand enough about exaltation to make a meaningful distinction between exaltation and salvation.  At EQ yesterday, I asked why we were all shooting for the Celestial Kingdom.  What do we expect to get in the CK that we won't have in the lower kingdoms?  Other than vague answers like "I get to be with my family forever," no one could really say. Certainly, no one had a definitive view of what their CK existence would be like.  No one said, "Okay, well on Day 1, I'm going to take a planet in the Andromeda Galaxy and move it over to ...."

 

Given the vagaries of what lies beyond the veil, I can see why it just turns into one big lump of "salvation."

[JLHPROF]

Besides, I'm not sure we really understand enough about exaltation to make a meaningful distinction between exaltation and salvation.  At EQ yesterday, I asked why we were all shooting for the Celestial Kingdom.  What do we expect to get in the CK that we won't have in the lower kingdoms?  Other than vague answers like "I get to be with my family forever," no one could really say. Certainly, no one had a definitive view of what their CK existence would be like.  No one said, "Okay, well on Day 1, I'm going to take a planet in the Andromeda Galaxy and move it over to ...."

 

Given the vagaries of what lies beyond the veil, I can see why it just turns into one big lump of "salvation."

 

I don't think what lies beyond the veil is as vague as we think it is.  The Church for the first half of its existence had very clear teachings that were widely accepted by the membership but never canonized.  For the second half of it's existence the fact that these teachings are non-canonical has caused many to say "we just don't know" and dismiss them as speculation.

 

But if you ignore the requirement of canon, and study the teachings and sermons of all the prophets (along with their scriptural justifications), there is a body of knowledge that was taught once upon a time with consistency and continuity.

Sometimes I think the "we don't know" club has taken all that was wonderous about our religion and pushed it out of sight.  Canon only matters in what you claim to be "Church teachings".  But study a little outside of canon and you will see the restored gospel and scripture from angles you'd never imagined. 

[mormonnewb]

I don't think what lies beyond the veil is as vague as we think it is.  The Church for the first half of its existence had very clear teachings that were widely accepted by the membership but never canonized.  For the second half of it's existence the fact that these teachings are non-canonical has caused many to say "we just don't know" and dismiss them as speculation.

 

But if you ignore the requirement of canon, and study the teachings and sermons of all the prophets (along with their scriptural justifications), there is a body of knowledge that was taught once upon a time with consistency and continuity.

Sometimes I think the "we don't know" club has taken all that was wonderous about our religion and pushed it out of sight.  Canon only matters in what you claim to be "Church teachings".  But study a little outside of canon and you will see the restored gospel and scripture from angles you'd never imagined. 

 

You sound like Pocahantas in that Colors of the Wind song:

 

"You'll learn things you never knew you never knew."

 

Maybe there is something to that Lamanite thing, after all

[teddyaware]

The thread on Lucifer makes me really want to differentiate between salvation and exaltation.

 

I think pretty much everyone on this board understands the difference:

1. Salvation - to be saved (resurrected) or redeemed from death and the fall as opposed to lost (perdition) and remaining in death.

2. Exaltation - to be saved in a Celestial/Godly environment where we become like God.

 

I think pretty much everyone on this board understands the requirements for each:

1. Salvation - To fall under the atonement (where none are lost but the sons of perdition), and eventually accept of Christ all are resurrected (every knee shall bow and every tongue confess).  The wages of sin are death, so we either pay the price for our own sins to escape the grave (if that's even an option) or we accept Christ's atonement to escape the grave.

2. Exaltation - To enter into God's presence through Baptism and receive at some point all the laws  and ordinances of the gospel until we receive the highest degree and become celesital material.

 

So given these are generally accepted distinctions (with the usual semantic opinions sure to arise) why do we insist on mixing them up in our discussions and applying one when we mean the other?

And why do we not apply these distinct definitions to related doctrines and use specificity in scripture reading?

"Salvation means eternal life; the two terms are synonymous; they mean exactly the same thing." (Bruce R. McConkie)

“Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else.” (Joseph Smith)

[Bob Crockett]

Salvation has many different meanings in the Bible, as well as the Book of Mormon.   A woman is saved by childbearing.  From what?  The stain of original sin?  What happens if a woman doesn't ever bear a child?

[Ahab]

Besides, I'm not sure we really understand enough about exaltation to make a meaningful distinction between exaltation and salvation. At EQ yesterday, I asked why we were all shooting for the Celestial Kingdom. What do we expect to get in the CK that we won't have in the lower kingdoms? Other than vague answers like "I get to be with my family forever," no one could really say. Certainly, no one had a definitive view of what their CK existence would be like. No one said, "Okay, well on Day 1, I'm going to take a planet in the Andromeda Galaxy and move it over to ...."

Given the vagaries of what lies beyond the veil, I can see why it just turns into one big lump of "salvation."

When you learn to equate glory with intelligence (light and truth) you'll learn that what distinguishes people with greater degrees of glory from people with lower degrees of glory is greater intelligence, with those who have more knowing and applying more intelligence in their lives than those with less intelligence.

I still have a lot to learn but at least I know as much as I know now, which some people have yet to learn.

[teddyaware]

Salvation has many different meanings in the Bible, as well as the Book of Mormon.   A woman is saved by childbearing.  From what?  The stain of original sin?  What happens if a woman doesn't ever bear a child?

I'm well aware of that fact, Bob. My post was a deliberate attempt to throw an alternate perspective into the mix.

[Coreyb]

Besides, I'm not sure we really understand enough about exaltation to make a meaningful distinction between exaltation and salvation.  At EQ yesterday, I asked why we were all shooting for the Celestial Kingdom.  What do we expect to get in the CK that we won't have in the lower kingdoms?  Other than vague answers like "I get to be with my family forever," no one could really say. Certainly, no one had a definitive view of what their CK existence would be like.  No one said, "Okay, well on Day 1, I'm going to take a planet in the Andromeda Galaxy and move it over to ...."

 

Given the vagaries of what lies beyond the veil, I can see why it just turns into one big lump of "salvation."

thrones, kingdoms, principalities of all heights and depths?

[theplains]

According to this May 1998 Ensign article, there are at least 6 different meanings.

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

[Flyonthewall]

The thread on Lucifer makes me really want to differentiate between salvation and exaltation.

 

I think pretty much everyone on this board understands the difference:

1. Salvation - to be saved (resurrected) or redeemed from death and the fall as opposed to lost (perdition) and remaining in death.

2. Exaltation - to be saved in a Celestial/Godly environment where we become like God.

 

I think pretty much everyone on this board understands the requirements for each:

1. Salvation - To fall under the atonement (where none are lost but the sons of perdition), and eventually accept of Christ all are resurrected (every knee shall bow and every tongue confess).  The wages of sin are death, so we either pay the price for our own sins to escape the grave (if that's even an option) or we accept Christ's atonement to escape the grave.

2. Exaltation - To enter into God's presence through Baptism and receive at some point all the laws  and ordinances of the gospel until we receive the highest degree and become celesital material.

 

So given these are generally accepted distinctions (with the usual semantic opinions sure to arise) why do we insist on mixing them up in our discussions and applying one when we mean the other?

And why do we not apply these distinct definitions to related doctrines and use specificity in scripture reading?

My opinion would be that it is because the rest of the Christian world believes in a dichotomy of saved or damned. It is pass or fail, there is no in-between. They do not know what exaltation is, and most likely believe it is a heresy.

We try to overlay the 3 kingdoms + outer darkness on top of what other Christians model, in our public discussions.

When they say there is no marriage or family in heaven but we enjoy the communion of saints and are in the presence of God and Jesus, to me that is a mish-mash of the 3 kingdoms.

As others have pointed out, there are many definitions or types of "salvation" so this one word is a one size fits all. But as anyone knows with one size fits all, its not a perfect fit.

[Nofear]

I've usually only use exaltation to mean the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. We can enter the Celestial Kingdom and not be married, but marriage is necessary for exaltation.

[Rob Osborn]

Salvation is to be saved from physical and spiritual death. This term is synonymous with "eternal life" in the scriptures. We confuse these two terms though with "exaltation". Exaltation is only mentioned in the D&C and is used in the strict context of the highest glory within the celestial kingdom. One can thus receive eternal life but not be exalted at that point. Salvation is what the scriptures refer to as being "saved". Being saved requires obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. No suffering on our part, by itself without obedience to the gospel never gets a person salvation. Salvation is only given to those washed clean through baptism and born again into eternal life.

[JLHPROF]

Salvation is only given to those washed clean through baptism and born again into eternal life.

 

So you don't consider those who end up in Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms to be "saved"?  They are saved from physical and spiritual death, and have eternal life.   

Baptism is only required for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, not to be saved period.

[Rob Osborn]

So you don't consider those who end up in Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms to be "saved"?  They are saved from physical and spiritual death, and have eternal life.   

Baptism is only required for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, not to be saved period.

LDS theology is rather complex and not even understood by our own religion. I can point out countless scriptures where baptism is a requirement to be saved eternally from hell. In fact, the scriptures are so replete with this doctrine that its not even debatable. The doctrine of salvation is so extremely sound regarding the requirements. You have two outcomes- 1. Salvation unto eternal life, or- 2. Damnation unto eternal death. Everyone will either fall into one or the other- there are no other outcomes. Christ speaks of this over and over in his teachings- being saved on the right hand unto eternal life or found on the left hand to be cast out into outer darkness with the devil and his angels. Again- we are either sheep or we are goats and all the sheep are saved while the goats are cast out into outer darkness. Again- we are either wheat or we are tares with the wheat stored up unto eternal life while the tares are burned into everlasting fire and damnation. One must understand this strict dichotomy in order to understand Christs teachings. For instance- Christ has never taught that he will save a sinner in any part of heaven. He has also never taught that he will save anyone who has not taken upon his name through the waters of baptism- its just not possible to save a person into any part of heaven without the "saving ordinances" having been performed. Without these saving ordinances one must remain in hell for all eternity. This is what the scriptures teach- nothing more and certainly nothing less.

The next obvious issue then is the discussion of the telestial and terrestrial inhabitants that Joseph Smith saw in vision. And this is where LDS theology gets really paradoxical and confusing. With the above in mind we must ask what exactly is the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms? A thorough reading of D&C 76 leaves one very confused because in the first part of the section it states that Christ only saves those who have been obedient to gospel law from hell. Everyone else is a son of perdition and goes into eternal damnation in hell. Then later on when describing some of the telestial inhabitants Christ refers to a word grouping associated in other NT and BoM passages that describe the very sons of perdition. So why is there sons of perdition in the telestial kingdom? Under current LDS doctrine this creates a grand paradox because on the one hand you have Christ himself teaching he cannot save the unrepentant and then on the other we teach that you can attain salvation from hell without repentance. Now remember- repentance has to be coupled with the ordinance of baptism or it means nothing to God. No repentance is eternally granted to anyone if they have refused baptism. So, this telestial kingdom is a definite issue that needs to be rethought by the Brethren in SLC because it doesnt jive with Christ's teachings regarding salvation.

Ironically the temple is the only source we have that doctrinally corrects our understanding. The problem is however that temple teachings are not ordinarily taught outside the temple endowment. even more ironically however is that anyone who does a walkthrough of a temple are told these simple truths just by walking through. What is this simple teaching? Its that the telestial kingdom is defined exactly as being the earth we now live on. It plainly says this in the endowment and is also plainly taught to anyone willing to walk through on an open house before the temple is set apart and sanctified for holy use. Well, now it all makes sense. If Joseph was seeing the telestial kingdom in vision (before the temple endowment was revealed BTW) he probably assumed it was a part of the eternal kingdom after the millennium. It wasnt until years later that the Lord revealed through the temple endowment ceremony that the telestial kingdom is actually this earth we now live on. So, seeing the unrepentant and even the liars whores and murderers in the telestial kingdom (notice when reading D&C 76 that he defines them in their present tense as being unrepentant) makes sense only when we properly define that Joseph Smith was being shown a vision of this earth in its various stages of progression from now until the earth becomes the celestial kingdom.

Speaking one step further also note in section 76 that when discussing the terrestrial kingdom Joseph sees one group and defining them as those who "died without law". These according to scripture are those who cannot be delivered to the spirit prison because they cannot be judged by law- they are without sin. These are different than another group who also are in the terrestrial who did die with law and went to the spirit prison but then repented and accepted the gospel. So, this first group who died without law must include little children who die before reaching an accountable age. Once one reaches an accountable age they automatically fall under law and the penalties of that law because they are capable of sin and must need baptism. This first group must also include the mentally and perhaps some physically handicapped as well as they too do not fall under the law of sin and the penalties of that law. So, why do little children who die before accountability who are without law inheriting the terrestrial kingdom? Without a proper understanding its completely against LDS doctrine. Its only when we properly view the plan of salvation through the lens of the temple endowment that it begins to make sense. The terrestrial kingdom is the earth during the millennium. All of us start in the telestial kingdom. From here we progress into the terrestrial kingdom- the earth during the millennium. From there we progress into the celestial kingdom. Its only at this point that salvation is meted out. Wrapping this all up into Christs teachings it thus makes sense that in the end (after the end of the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms) there are only two places- the kingdom of heaven (celestial kingdom) and outer darkness which is hell where the devil and his angels are. Thus- eternal life comes to only those who make it to this point and return again to live with Heavenly Father in his kingdom. If you do not make it to this point you CANNOT be saved at all because you remain unrepentant and in rebellion to Christ and MUST be cast out into outer darkness. Everyone must be born again (repent and be baptised) into the kingdom of heaven (names written in the Celestial kingdom/ Book of Life) or they must be cast aside and burned in everlasting hell.

[Ahab]

Oh good, another opportunity to try to correct Rob's misunderstanding.

Anyone want to volunteer for the challenge?

I've tried several times before and apparently it didn't sink in.