Salvation Vs. Exaltation

[Rob Osborn]

Oh good, another opportunity to try to correct Rob's misunderstanding.

Anyone want to volunteer for the challenge?

I've tried several times before and apparently it didn't sink in.

Misunderstandings are a funny thing. Let me ask this one thing- find a scripture, anywhere in all of our standard works, that teaches Christ can save a person eternally from hell without repentance and baptism (hint: there isn't a single one). When you get to that conclusion of understanding the rest will sink in as truth.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Rob Osborn

[VideoGameJunkie]

I have a question about exaltation. Do we actually become our own Gods and have our own worlds, or do we just share with Heavenly Father and assist and share his throne?

[JLHPROF]

I have a question about exaltation. Do we actually become our own Gods and have our own worlds, or do we just share with Heavenly Father and assist and share his throne?

 

Yes.

 

Just kidding - but I think it's a safe bet that we will assist with a creation before we are set out on our own.  Even our Heavenly Father was given the assignment by the Council to create this earth.  Who knows how many other earths he had seen created before creating one of his own?

[JLHPROF]

LDS theology is rather complex and not even understood by our own religion

.

 

Actually Rob, there is a lot of truth in that rather long discourse you wrote.  There are things in there that are quite brilliant.  But there are also some conclusions you come to that are not scriptural.  But it would take quite a while (and a lot of text to answer).

Basically, there are a lot of absolute genius half truths in it.

[Ahab]

Misunderstandings are a funny thing. Let me ask this one thing- find a scripture, anywhere in all of our standard works, that teaches Christ can save a person eternally from hell without repentance and baptism (hint: there isn't a single one). When you get to that conclusion of understanding the rest will sink in as truth.

First, define hell.

Second, define glory.

Then ask God if a person can be somewhere or in some state of existence other than in or experiencing hell and at that point have only telestial or terrestrial glory.

[seriously honestly]

So given these are generally accepted distinctions (with the usual semantic opinions sure to arise) why do we insist on mixing them up in our discussions and applying on when we mean the other?

 

Context of the audience and one's personal knowledge of what they mean when say salvation or exaltation. Kind of like when you correct yourself after saying left instead of right, but the person you're talking to says "I knew what you meant". Or the way my job refers to tags and permits interchangeably (even though they're different things) because we know which one we're actually talking about.

[Rob Osborn]

First, define hell.

Second, define glory.

Then ask God if a person can be somewhere or in some state of existence other than in or experiencing hell and at that point have only telestial or terrestrial glory.

Hell is a place. Its defined by our church as 2 things-

Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. Second, it is the permanent location of Satan and his followers and the sons of perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. https://www.lds.org/topics/hell?lang=eng

Glory is light and truth. We enjoy the presence of the Holy Ghost here in this kingdom. Some more than others. That is the glory of this kingdom and also our glory here. We are in the telestial kingdom and thus enjoy telestial glory.

[teddyaware]

Actually Rob, there is a lot of truth in that rather long discourse you wrote.  There are things in there that are quite brilliant.  But there are also some conclusions you come to that are not scriptural.  But it would take quite a while (and a lot of text to answer).

Basically, there are a lot of absolute genius half truths in it.

Your questioning of Ron's ideas provides an excellent opportunity to shed some light on one of those "perceived inconsistencies" in LDS doctrine I was talking about. Among the Latter-day Saints, for many years the commonly held belief has been that baptism is only needed for entry into the celestial kingdom and that it has nothing at all to do with those who inherit the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms. But the Doctrine and Covenants cast serious doubt on that belief.

For many years critics of the LDS have been saying that there's no possible way to harmonize the "one heaven one hell model" of the plan of salvation presented in the Book of Mormon with the "three degrees of glory model" of the plan salvation presented in sections 76, 88, 128, and 138 of the Doctrine and Covenants. But after some months of diligent prayer, study and pondering I came to realize there is no actual disparity between these two models. They key to gaining this understanding on my part came as a result of studying D&C sections 76, 88, 128 and 138 without superimposing any preconceived beliefs or notions of mine onto the texts. For the purposes of this quest to gain further light and knowledge, I simply cast out of my mind every settled idea I already had about the salvation of the human family and let the aforementioned four sections of the D&C speak for themselves. What I learned thrilled and astonished me.

I could go on at great length on this subject but I'll cut right to the heart of the matter. I'll be interested to hear what you will have to say in response. So for a few moments cast your preconceived ideas out of your mind and carefully read and ponder the following verses from section 138, paying especial attention to the lines in bold italic...

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism (!!!) for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost (!!!) by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross. (D&C 138)

 

There's more but I'll stop at this point for now.

So what do you think?

P.S. As an aside, I was quite familiar with section 138 before it was added to the Doctrine and Covenants in 1981. Prior to 1981, whenever I would read this this account of Joseph F. Smith's vision of the redemption of the dead, I would think to myself, "if this vision is ever added to the Standard Works, it's going to be a real game changer!"

 

Edited July 17, 2014 by teddyaware

[Rob Osborn]

Section 138 shows the progression of understanding correct doctrine. We went from the BoM teachings about no chance for repentance after death to section 138 teaching that repentance is possible after death. The temple endowment clarifies further that not only is repentance and baptism necessary for salvation but also the priesthood with its covenants are also required.

[Ahab]

Joseph clearly taught that the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial orders or regions are all part of heaven, so that's how heaven is one of the two places where we will go after we are judged. If not to one of those regions of heaven the only alternative will be hell.

Rob is stuck on the idea that the only 2 choices we'll have is the celestial region of heaven or hell.

[teddyaware]

Section 138 shows the progression of understanding correct doctrine. We went from the BoM teachings about no chance for repentance after death to section 138 teaching that repentance is possible after death. The temple endowment clarifies further that not only is repentance and baptism necessary for salvation but also the priesthood with its covenants are also required.

I believe at least several of the Book of Mormon prophets knew all about the doctrines of salvation for the dead and the three degrees of glory. The Brother of Jared would have known about these things because they would have been included in the great, all-inclusive revelation he received...

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ..." (Ether 4)

Nephi would have known about salvation for the dead and the three degrees of glory as well because he received the exact same all-inclusive revelation the Brother of Jared and John the Apostle received, but he was forbidden to commit all that he say and heard to writing...

24 And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see.

25 But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them.

26 And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel. (1 Nephi 14)

 

Further, Nephi tells us his Father saw the same all-inclusive revelation he saw, so Father Lehi would have known about salvation for the dead and the three degrees of glory as well...

28 And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.

29 And I bear record that I saw the things which my father saw, and the angel of the Lord did make them known unto me. (1 Nephi 14)

It's likely Nephi would have shared all the things he'd seen and heard with his righteous brothers, so there's a good chance Jacob and Sam would have known about salvation for the dead and the three degrees of glory as well. The same holds true for King Mosiah, about whom we read the following:

1 And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the mount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people. (Ether 4)

 

Who else among the Book of Mormon peoples would have known about salvation for the dead and the three degrees of glory? Well that would be the Church leaders and the other Church members who were taught all things by the Lord Jesus Christ after His resurrection. How would I know this? I'll explain: In 3 Nephi the Lord reveals to the gathered saints the following famous words of the Prophet Malachi concerning salvation for the dead:

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord;

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (1 Nephi 25 & Malachi 4)

 

Then immediately after giving the Nephites these words of Malachi concerning salvation for the dead and the sealing power we are told:

1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had told these things he expounded them unto the multitude; and he did expound all things unto them, both great and small.

2 And he saith: These scriptures (meaning Malachi's words concerning salvation for the dead and the sealing power), which ye had not with you, the Father commanded that I should give unto you; for it was wisdom in him that they should be given unto future generations.

3 And he did expound all things, even from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory—yea, even all things which should come upon the face of the earth, even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth should be wrapt together as a scroll, and the heavens and the earth should pass away;

4 And even unto the great and last day, when all people, and all kindreds, and all nations and tongues shall stand before God, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

5 If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of damnation; being on a parallel, the one on the one hand and the other on the other hand, according to the mercy, and the justice, and the holiness which is in Christ, who was before the world began.

6 And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people; (3 Nephi 26)

 

After being informed the Saviour revealed all things great and small to the Nephites (most assuredly this would have included salvation for the dead and the sealing power; else why would the Saviour quote Malachi's famous words?), we are further informed that by His own command these all-encompassing teachings of the Lord were forbidden to be included in our Book of Mormon abridgement ...

 

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this (the "lesser part" of Jesus' words to the Nephites), which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi (surely including the teachings on salvation for the dead and the three degrees of glory), but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

(3 Nephi 26)

 

Finally, we know both Mormon and Moroni had access to both the more advanced teachings of the Lord Jesus (mentioned immediately above) that were not included in Mormon's abridgement, and they also had access to the great revelation given to the Brother of Jared that Moroni was commanded of the Lord to included in the sealed portion of the Nephite record.

 

Why bother with all of this? In consideration of all the above, I conclude many of the Nephites knew about the principles of salvation for the dead and the three degrees of glory (amongst many other of the more advanced Gospel teachings), but they were commanded to not include them in what Mormon calls the "lesser part" (today's Book of Mormon) of the Nephite record.

 

So most certainly there was no lack of understanding of the doctrines of salvation of the dead and of the three degrees of glory among the Nephites. It only seems to be that way among the misinformed because the more advanced gospel teachings known and understood by the Nephites were by deliberately not included in our Book of Mormon by the Lord's own command.

Edited July 17, 2014 by teddyaware

[Rob Osborn]

Joseph clearly taught that the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial orders or regions are all part of heaven, so that's how heaven is one of the two places where we will go after we are judged. If not to one of those regions of heaven the only alternative will be hell.

Rob is stuck on the idea that the only 2 choices we'll have is the celestial region of heaven or hell.

What I find interesting is that when Christ speaks of heaven in the scriptures he always uses it in the context of the same place where he and The Father will dwell. He never mentions heaven as a place where the unrepentant go. Also if interest is that in Revelations it speaks of the Holy city which is the celestial kingdom here on this earth and all tje saved being here while the only ones not admitted are the sons of perdition.

[mnn727]

Besides, I'm not sure we really understand enough about exaltation to make a meaningful distinction between exaltation and salvation.  

 

There is a BIG difference between Salvation and Exaltation. See D&C 76 for details

 

Just because we don't know every little detail doesn't mean you should lump it all together under the incorrect word.

Edited July 17, 2014 by mnn727

[teddyaware]

What I find interesting is that when Christ speaks of heaven in the scriptures he always uses it in the context of the same place where he and The Father will dwell. He never mentions heaven as a place where the unrepentant go. Also if interest is that in Revelations it speaks of the Holy city which is the celestial kingdom here on this earth and all tje saved being here while the only ones not admitted are the sons of perdition.

Rob: Are you in disagreement with D&C 76 when it testifies to the following concerning the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom?

 

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

 

And are you also in disagreement with D&C 76 when it testifies to the following concerning the inheritors of the telestial kingdom?

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

 

Edited July 17, 2014 by teddyaware

[Rob Osborn]

Rob: Are you in disagreement with D&C 76 when it testifies to the following concerning the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom?

 

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

 

And are you also in disagreement with D&C 76 when it testifies to the following concerning the inheritors of the telestial kingdom?

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

Several issues here. The first is receiving ptesence of Son but not the Father. But, Christ is supposed to be in the Celestial glory n his throne next to the Father. So, if Christ has same glory as the Fathet why not the Fathers oresence too ? We do know that during tje millennium we wil enjoy presence of the Son. Its just not coincidence that the earth during the millenniym is the terrestrial kingdom. Also, there will be spirits assigned from the higher kingdom to help with lower kingdom. But isnt everyone supposed to be resurrected by then?

We do know from JS that he saw Jacobs ladder with the angels assending and descending on the three principle rungs. JS then said the three rungs represent the celestial, terrestrial and telestial kingdoms.

[Rob Osborn]

I also wanted to bring this verse up in particular-

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

Of interest here is when speaking of the telestial inhabitants in the present tense it says they will be heirs of salvation speaking about them in the future tense. This is rather intriguing because if one is already redeemed from hell they already have salvation. The only way it adds up is if you define this verse as speaking about us- those of Christs fold here on this earth now. Its really interesting when you cross referece this verse-

6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth. (D&C 7:6)

I honestly tjink this is a classic case of Joseph Smith seeing a real vision but not being abke to define the specific timing of events such as the various kingdoms and what they are and when they exist.

[Rob Osborn]

Also of interest, check out this verse-

68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

These are the names written in the Book of Life. This is speaking of the Celestial inhabitants. Here-

2 Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world.(D&C 88:2)

So, the nameswritten in heaven are those of the Celestial world. Thats all sound doctrine isnt it. Now look at these verses-

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.(Rev. 20:14-15)

So, it apoears that if you are not partof the Celestial world in the end you are cast out with the evil into the second death. Further proof that the telestialand terrestrial worlds do not exist after the millenium.

[Rob Osborn]

And also of interest is this-

7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.(Mosiah 5:7-

Salvation comes by baptism whereby we become spiritually begotten of Christ. This is the only way we are saved eternally from hell. We also become members of the Church of the Firstborn-

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn(D&C 93:22)

All pretty sound doctrine right? To be saved eternally from hell we have to be born again through Christ. When we do we belong to Christs church. Its all sound and good right? Now look at this verse from section 76-

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

This verse was speaking of the celestial inhabitants. Couple all this together and we see that unless we are begotten through Christ we cannot be set free from hell eternally. And, if we are begotten through Christ we receive of his glory in the celestial world. Once again proof that the telestial and terrestrial worlds will not exist after the millennium.

[Ahab]

You're just having trouble seeing how a person can be saved fron hell while still not having celestial intelligence/glory, personally. Those with only telestial and terrestrial intelligence/glory, personally, will have people of celestial intelligence/glory trying to teach them more than they currently accept as truth, with repeated visits throughout eternity, but nobody will be able to force those less intelligent people to accept what the more intelligent people will be trying to teach them.

[Rob Osborn]

Theres no trouble here on my end. I have studied it out very well. The only trouble that exists is trying to make three world glory model in eternity to jive with Christs gospel. It just doesnt work and its very troubling. Under our current teaching we teach that an unrepentant whoremonger can be saved from hellbeing cleansed by the atonement. That literally flys in the face of all of Christs teachings. Study it out yourself, our three world plan of salvation is wrought with so many holes its rather embarrasing.

[Ahab]

Theres no trouble here on my end. I have studied it out very well. The only trouble that exists is trying to make three world glory model in eternity to jive with Christs gospel. It just doesnt work and its very troubling. Under our current teaching we teach that an unrepentant whoremonger can be saved from hellbeing cleansed by the atonement. That literally flys in the face of all of Christs teachings. Study it out yourself, our three world plan of salvation is wrought with so many holes its rather embarrasing.

The 3 world model, as you call it, should appropriately be referred to as the 3 world-type model, since each class of people will have (and now has) more than only 3 worlds/planets to live on, with the quality of life on each world-type distinguished by the degree of intelligence of the people who are the primary residents on each planet, aside from the people with greater intelligence/glory who visit the planet.

It's not as if people automatically become more intelligent by having more intelligent people visit them to try to teach them, so even people who will enjoy the presence of our Savior will not necessarily become as intelligent as he, and our Father, is.

And no, our most current teaching is not that an unrepentant person will be cleansed by our Lord's atonement If any person doesn't repent from all of his or her own sins he or she will have to suffer the penalties for those sins each and every time he or she commits that sin, and then after each time that he or she suffers for that sin he or she will be sent (or sent back) to live with other people with the same degree of intelligence.

[teddyaware]

Theres no trouble here on my end. I have studied it out very well. The only trouble that exists is trying to make three world glory model in eternity to jive with Christs gospel. It just doesnt work and its very troubling. Under our current teaching we teach that an unrepentant whoremonger can be saved from hellbeing cleansed by the atonement. That literally flys in the face of all of Christs teachings. Study it out yourself, our three world plan of salvation is wrought with so many holes its rather embarrasing.

Embarrassing? Really? Here, in part, is where you're going wrong:

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;

116 Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;

117 To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; (D&C 76)

The simple fact of the matter, Rob, is that D&C 76 doesn't tell the whole story. This Vision (as it's called), as we have it today, is not by any means complete and definitive because there's so much more yet to be revealed. In your zeal to formulate a complete and finalized picture of the plan of salvation -- before the Lord has even seen fit to reveal that complete picture -- you have gotten ahead of yourself, and you're looking beyond the mark.  At this point in time the answers you're seeking are not even lawful to reveal or talk about, yet you are filled with angst because in your impatience you want the complete picture NOW.

 

For now, this is as far as the Vision goes:

94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; (D&C 76)

and again,

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D&C 76)

 

Like it or not, this is as far as it goes (D&C 138 may go just a little further). D&C sections 76, 88, 128 and 132 present the official LDS plan of salvation as far as the Lord has been willing to reveal thus far. I'll admit in the end it may very well turn out that some of what you're advocating may in some unforeseen way turn out to be true, but putting one's cart before the horse when the Lord says not to do so is never a good idea.

 

Personally, I'm content to live with what the Lord has seen fit to reveal thus far  -- patience is a spiritual virtue. But remember, even if someone through full devotion and diligence is permitted to have all the answers revealed to him privately, before those answers have been revealed to the Church at large, the Lord puts such a man under a very strict command to keep what he knows to himself because the mysteries that have been disclosed to him by revelation "are not lawful for man to utter." 

Edited July 18, 2014 by teddyaware

[Rob Osborn]

The 3 world model, as you call it, should appropriately be referred to as the 3 world-type model, since each class of people will have (and now has) more than only 3 worlds/planets to live on, with the quality of life on each world-type distinguished by the degree of intelligence of the people who are the primary residents on each planet, aside from the people with greater intelligence/glory who visit the planet.

It's not as if people automatically become more intelligent by having more intelligent people visit them to try to teach them, so even people who will enjoy the presence of our Savior will not necessarily become as intelligent as he, and our Father, is.

And no, our most current teaching is not that an unrepentant person will be cleansed by our Lord's atonement If any person doesn't repent from all of his or her own sins he or she will have to suffer the penalties for those sins each and every time he or she commits that sin, and then after each time that he or she suffers for that sin he or she will be sent (or sent back) to live with other people with the same degree of intelligence.

Here is our doctrine from the Gospel Principles manual

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

Telestial

These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–88, 103–6, 109.) https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng

As one can clearly see, we teach that the telestial are those who never repent and never receive the gospel. If they did they would be in the terrestrial kingdom. So, what we have is this doctrine that the telestial is filled with all the unrepentant liars, whoremongers, etc, but are not necessarily sons of perdition either. Paradoxical to this is that it says that through the atonement they are redeemed from spiritual death (hell) and receive a kingdom of glory. The paradox is that one must repent and turn to Christ to be saved through the atonement. The church is firm in the teaching that telestial heirs are those who never repent. If they did repent they would fall under the definition of terrestrial. The manual is very clear that they remain unrepentant. It even says in section 76 that they are liars, sorcerers, adulterers, whoremongers, etc, speaking of them in the present tense. It doesnt say they "were" those things, no, it says they "are" those things. So, the hard part I have wrapping my mind and logic around is how in the world can Christ save them through the atonement (cleanse them) is if they remain in their saved condition the same type of person that Christ said he cannot save? Thats a grand paradox. There isnt one single scripture that states Christ can save any soul eternally from hell without repentance. This is a clear case, and quite embarrassing too, where our doctrine is completely screwed up. Here is just one such scripture reference about the unrepentant-

43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;

44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;

45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey.(D&C 29:43-45)

These three verses simply contradict the Gospel Principles manual.

[Rob Osborn]

Embarrassing? Really? Here, in part, is where you're going wrong:

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;

116 Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;

117 To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; (D&C 76)

The simple fact of the matter is, Rob, that D&C 76 doesn't tell the whole story. This Vision (as it's called), as we have it today, is not by any means complete and definitive because there's so much more yet to be revealed. In your zeal to formulate a complete and finalized picture of the plan of salvation -- before the Lord has even seen fit to reveal that complete picture -- you have gotten ahead of yourself, and you're looking beyond the mark.  At this point in time the answers you're seeking are not even lawful to reveal or talk about, yet you are filled with angst because in your impatience you want the complete picture NOW.

 

For now, this is as far as the Vision goes:

94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.

98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; (D&C 76)

and again,

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D&C 76)

 

Like it or not, this is as far as it goes (D&C 138 may go just a little further). D&C sections 76, 88, 128 and 132 present the official LDS plan of salvation as far as the Lord has been willing to reveal thus far. I'll admit in the end it may very well turn out that some of what you're advocating may in some unforeseen way turn out to be true, but putting one's cart before the horse when the Lord says not to do so is never a good idea.

 

Personally, I'm content to live with what the Lord has seen fit to reveal thus far  -- patience is a spiritual virtue. But remember, even if someone through full devotion and diligence is permitted to have all the answers revealed to him privately, before those answers have been revealed to the Church at large, the Lord puts such a man under a very strict command to keep what he knows to himself because the mysteries that have been disclosed to him by revelation "are not lawful for man to utter."

Its kind of interesting that when I was taking the temple preparation class that I was taught that the endowment teaches the plan of salvation. I was really excited about this. When I went to the temple though I was really surprised that the plan of salvation as taught in the temple is not the plan of salvation we teach outside the temple. After many years of careful thought I came to the conclusion that this too was one of them things- line upon line revelations kind of like section 138 which clarified and even reversed some old teachings and thoughts on the subject of heaven and hell. If we are to take the temple endowment as the most clarifying position regarding the plan of salvation then it becomes quite obvious that section 76 was given as kind of the first line about how salvation works and remained at that time incomplete. If we couple section 76 with the later revelation ( I call it part 2)of the endowment it becomes obvious the Lord was trying to teach the saints that He could not save the unprepared, the unrepentant, etc and that is why each kingdom or "stage of the earth" was a stepping stone, line upon line, that could prepare Gods children to receive salvation in the celestial kingdom. In the endowment we teach that all man starts out in the telestial kingdom and from there we learn line upon line until we are ready to be presented to the next stage- the terrestrial kingdom and then we go into that kingdom and receive further instructions and learn more until once again we are presented to be accepted to the celestial kingdom. As the temple prepaation class teaches- the endowment is the plan of salvation. here- https://www.lds.org/manual/endowed-from-on-high-temple-preparation-seminar-teachers-manual/lesson-1-the-temple-teaches-about-the-great-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng

So, if the endowment is the plan of salvation then the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are kingdoms of this earth that all man "must" pass through in order to receive salvation. They are thus not worlds of glory after the millennium for the saved to go to.

[teddyaware]

Its kind of interesting that when I was taking the temple preparation class that I was taught that the endowment teaches the plan of salvation. I was really excited about this. When I went to the temple though I was really surprised that the plan of salvation as taught in the temple is not the plan of salvation we teach outside the temple. After many years of careful thought I came to the conclusion that this too was one of them things- line upon line revelations kind of like section 138 which clarified and even reversed some old teachings and thoughts on the subject of heaven and hell. If we are to take the temple endowment as the most clarifying position regarding the plan of salvation then it becomes quite obvious that section 76 was given as kind of the first line about how salvation works and remained at that time incomplete. If we couple section 76 with the later revelation ( I call it part 2)of the endowment it becomes obvious the Lord was trying to teach the saints that He could not save the unprepared, the unrepentant, etc and that is why each kingdom or "stage of the earth" was a stepping stone, line upon line, that could prepare Gods children to receive salvation in the celestial kingdom. In the endowment we teach that all man starts out in the telestial kingdom and from there we learn line upon line until we are ready to be presented to the next stage- the terrestrial kingdom and then we go into that kingdom and receive further instructions and learn more until once again we are presented to be accepted to the celestial kingdom. As the temple prepaation class teaches- the endowment is the plan of salvation. here- https://www.lds.org/manual/endowed-from-on-high-temple-preparation-seminar-teachers-manual/lesson-1-the-temple-teaches-about-the-great-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng

So, if the endowment is the plan of salvation then the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are kingdoms of this earth that all man "must" pass through in order to receive salvation. They are thus not worlds of glory after the millennium for the saved to go to.

So here's another problem I see with your position. Fact is that you will never hear what you're advocating on this thread taught in General Conference, the Church teaching manuals, Gospel Doctrine, Sacrament meeting, or even in the Journal of Discourses. What you advocate is unorthodox and is not the officially endorsed plan of salvation taught throughout the Church. And I feel certain that if you were to teach such doctrine in the presence of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve you would almost certainly be called out on it, especially if you chose to use unambiguous, straightforward language. Respectfully, I'm asking you if you would kindly provide even one source, any source, that can back up the assertions you're making. Or do you admit these ideas are yours and yours alone?

As far as the temple rites are concerned, just because this earth in its present state is called a telestial kingdom doesn't mean there can't also be telestial kingdoms of a higher order that are the abode of resurrected telestial beings who are assigned there after the final judgment. The mere fact that we're told telestial beings will be visited, ministered to, and taught by terrestrial beings of a more glorious order of than their own should be enough to put this notion to rest till more is revealed.

Edited July 18, 2014 by teddyaware