Did Heavenly Father Live As We Currently Live?

[mfbukowski]

(here is where mfbukowski needs to post his Rorty video...)

 

[teddyaware]

What does that even mean? Infinite fullness.

In the scriptures, when speaking of sanctification, the use of the word fullness can refer to a state of where one exists in a state of holiness but not absolute perfection. An infinite fullness refers to a state of holiness when eternal perfection has been obtained. It is an expression used by Jeffrey R. Holland in an address he gave in 2006.

Edited July 19, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

D&C 130:10

True. But whatever we learn about that higher order will already be known by our Father, and He is the one who will make it possible for us to gain that knowledge. So we're right back where we started: Whatever we inherit will be through our Father in Heaven, through the atonement of Christ.

But that really is an interesting scripture, isn't it... a mind-blower, as they say.

Edited July 19, 2014 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

True. But whatever we learn about that higher order will already be known by our Father, and He is the one who will make it possible for us to gain that knowledge. So we're right back where we started: Whatever we inherit will be through our Father in Heaven, through the atonement of Christ.

But that really is an interesting scripture, isn't it... a mind-blower, as they say.

 

Yep.  But if achieving Celestial Glory (where God dwells) opens up access to a higher order of Kingdoms, it is an assumption to say that Heavenly Father has already achieved them.  He absolutely will be the one opening that knowledge before us (through the white stone), but unlike the McConkie model, it's pretty clear if God dwells in the highest degree of Celestial and there are a higher order of kingdoms that God has somewhere to progress to as well as we do.

[Tacenda]

Go to the temple sometime.

"... that's the way Father gained his knowledge".

Which temple and what knowledge?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Tacenda, he was quoting a line from the temple video that's shown during the endowment ceremony.

[Alan]

 

I'm not having this argument twice in the same thread.

I will not allow myself to be one of those people that can't handle what Joseph taught:

- JSH 1:20

- TPJS 329

- TPJS 331

- HC 5:362

- HC 6:366

- Millennial Star - 13:257 & 55:585

- 9th Article of Faith

 

When it comes to the recorded teachings of Joseph Smith I will never allow myself to think that way.

 

So the answer is...... none of them.

[JLHPROF]

So the answer is...... none of them.

 

No, the answer is the King Follett Discourse.  I consider it a revelation direct from God through his prophet Joseph Smith.  And the fact that there are members who refuse to accept it because "it was never adopted as canon" doesn't make it one iota less true.

Joseph said the majority of the members would refuse to accept most of what he could teach them.  This thread is living proof of that.

[mfbukowski]

So the answer is...... none of them.

Only if you ignore this, and I don't see how you can.

 

 

Go to the temple sometime.

"... that's the way Father gained his knowledge".

And "consider the source" is not a valid argument unless we have no consequences for living up to temple ordinances, which comes from the same source.

I know that is a tad cryptic, but it has to be.

Edited July 21, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Stone holm]

In the scriptures, when speaking of sanctification, the use of the word fullness can refer to a state of where one exists in a state of holiness but not absolute perfection. An infinite fullness refers to a state of holiness when eternal perfection has been obtained. It is an expression used by Jeffrey R. Holland in an address he gave in 2006.

It is dangerous to think of perfection as a destination rather than a process, and running too far with such terms and language can lead to inconsistencies in teaching. One of the dangers of dumbing down Mormonism and teaching only milk is that people spin strange stuff out of hyperbole that is just meant to convey awe, not reality.

[teddyaware]

It is dangerous to think of perfection as a destination rather than a process, and running too far with such terms and language can lead to inconsistencies in teaching. One of the dangers of dumbing down Mormonism and teaching only milk is that people spin strange stuff out of hyperbole that is just meant to convey awe, not reality.

Those who overcome the world by faith either become joint heirs with Christ in all He possesses, including the fullness of His infinite and eternal power and divine attributes, or they don't. Do you believe our God is perfect or do you believe He's not yet perfect and is still engaged in the never ending process of which you speak. If you do believe He's still involved in the process of obtaining perfection, you are at variance with the scriptures for we read the following concerning Christ:

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him. (D&C 93)

 

And if you believe men will forever be involved in the process of becoming perfect without ever obtaining perfection, you are mistaken on that point as well, for we read the following concerning the destiny of man:

 

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same  (the full glory of Christ), and are the church of the Firstborn.

 

And doesn't the milk of the Gospel refer to the doctrine that teaches men will never become like God? Isn't it the meat of the Gospel, like the glorious but controversial (to the unenlightened) doctrines revealed in the King Follett Discourse, that teach otherwise?

 

But I will agree with you when you say the teaching that men can become like God is a dangerous one. After all, it was that teaching that caused the enemies of Christ to scourge Him and nail Him to a cross.

 

Edited July 21, 2014 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

But I will agree with you when you say the teaching that men can become like God is a dangerous one. After all, it was that teaching that cause the enemies of Christ to scourge Him and nail Him to the cross.

That's a great insight- I hadn't looked at it quite that way before. You are completely right. Jesus, a man, was claiming to be God.

I don't know how I missed that perspective before.

[teddyaware]

That's a great insight- I hadn't looked at it quite that way before. You are completely right. Jesus, a man, was claiming to be God.

I don't know how I missed that perspective before.

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[Stone holm]

Those who overcome the world by faith either become joint heirs with Christ in all He possesses, including the fullness of His infinite and eternal power and divine attributes, or they don't. Do you believe our God is perfect or do you believe He's not yet perfect and is still engaged in the never ending process of which you speak. If you do believe He's still involved in the process of obtaining perfection, you are at variance with the scriptures for we read the following concerning Christ:

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him. (D&C 93)

 

And if you believe men will forever be involved in the process of becoming perfect without ever obtaining perfection, you are mistaken on that point as well, for we read the following concerning the destiny of man:

 

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same  (the full glory of Christ), and are the church of the Firstborn.

 

And doesn't the milk of the Gospel refer to the doctrine that teaches men will never become like God? Isn't it the meat of the Gospel, like the glorious but controversial (to the unenlightened) doctrines revealed in the King Follett Discourse, that teach otherwise?

 

But I will agree with you when you say the teaching that men can become like God is a dangerous one. After all, it was that teaching that caused the enemies of Christ to scourge Him and nail Him to a cross.

I believe in eternal progression and in the definition of perfection that BY applied to us and to God, namely "doing the best we know how" which he said was all that HF did as well. I believe that Exaltation is reaching that stage where one becomes a God, but that gods still progress. The idea that there are some things that God cannot do, like forcing someone to heaven, is part of the meat. Teaching that God does not progress and that He has no limits to His knowledge or use of power and using phrases meant to express awe as descriptive doctrine is milk.

[teddyaware]

I believe in eternal progression and in the definition of perfection that BY applied to us and to God, namely "doing the best we know how" which he said was all that HF did as well. I believe that Exaltation is reaching that stage where one becomes a God, but that gods still progress. The idea that there are some things that God cannot do, like forcing someone to heaven, is part of the meat. Teaching that God does not progress and that He has no limits to His knowledge or use of power and using phrases meant to express awe as descriptive doctrine is milk.

You conveniently ignore commenting on the canonized passages of scripture I quoted.  Here's something to think about:

'Without the knowledge of all things, God would not be able to save any portion of his creatures, for it is by reason of the knowledge which he has of all things, from the beginning to the end, that enables him to give that understanding to his creatures by which they are made partakers of eternal life; and if it were not for the idea existing in the minds of men that God had all knowledge it would be impossible for them to exercise faith in him.' (Joseph Smith)

 

"There is simply no way to reconcile the doctrine of the omniscience of God with the notion of a god who is something less than that." (Apostle Neal A Maxwell)

Edited July 21, 2014 by teddyaware

[Stone holm]

Yeah, I don't subscribe to that idea of omniscience.  If that puts me at odds with Neal A. Maxwell, so be it.  I am in the minority that feels that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive concepts.

[Stone holm]

JLHProf agree with your last post

[teddyaware]

Yeah, I don't subscribe to that idea of omniscience.  If that puts me at odds with Neal A. Maxwell, so be it.  I am in the minority that feels that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive concepts.

While the Standard Works give us every reason to exalt, praise and glorify God as infinite and eternal, some members give our enemies powerful ammunition against the Church by diminishing the omniscience of God and validating the criticism that the Latter-day Saints worship and imperfect God. Not smart.

20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it. (2Nephi 9)

[mfbukowski]

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Excellent point.

Being a convert I think I never saw that from a Mormon perspective, though I have been one 34 years now. Thanks! Learned something new today

[Ahab]

While the Standard Works give us every reason to exalt, praise and glorify God as infinite and eternal, some members give our enemies powerful ammunition against the Church by diminishing the omniscience of God and validating the criticism that the Latter-day Saints worship and imperfect God. Not smart.

20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it. (2Nephi 9)

I think he may be mixed up on the omnis.

I agree that God is omniscient (notice the scient referring to him as a scientist), but I wouldn't say he is omnipotent (all powerful) in the sense of being able to do anything. Nor would I say he is omnipresent in the sense of him being everywhere at the same time.

[Stone holm]

I am quite satisfied that my God is all good and all benevolent, I don't require Him to be Omnipotent or Omniscient.  I think that is probably stemming from either running with hyperbole meant as a way of expressing awe, or just Greek philosophy getting a grip on Christian creeds.

[teddyaware]

I am quite satisfied that my God is all good and all benevolent, I don't require Him to be Omnipotent or Omniscient.  I think that is probably stemming from either running with hyperbole meant as a way of expressing awe, or just Greek philosophy getting a grip on Christian creeds.

Perhaps you know of evidence to the contrary, but as far as I'm aware the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price were not influenced by Hellenistic philosophy. In addition, I've never heard any General Authority or Church scholar make the claim the Prophet Joseph Smith and/or the prophets who produced the above books of scripture were prone to literary hyperbole. In my opinion, when these men glorified God in their writings they did so because He is fully worthy of being glorified. Here's another example of scripture that teaches God knows all things:

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment. (Moses 6)

Edited July 22, 2014 by teddyaware

[Stone holm]

Yeah I think that is a good example of awe hyperbole.

[teddyaware]

Yeah I think that is a good example of awe hyperbole.

I deliberately placed that verse because I had a strong hunch you were going to mock your own scriptures. You didn't disappoint.

Edited July 22, 2014 by teddyaware

[Storm Rider]

The idea of having itching ears is one that we all need to be daily cognizant.  Too often we want a God that fits our image rather than one that demands that we listen and obey him.  This is the part of our being that is found in our pride and we use it to reinforce and strengthen our pride.

 

God must be a certain way or he can not be God.  God must accommodate our desires, wants, and passions.  Surely a god who loves us would give us what we want without any personal sacrifice!?!  What is love other than to give us what we want?

 

We each do this because we are all proud.  It often stuns me that many Christians do not see that the evil one is real; that he lies in wait to deceive each of us and he motivates us to run after shadows of truths that are all wrapped in a pretty, little box that satiates our passions.  He is so good at this that we will call evil good and good evil.  

 

The path without sacrifice is one that is fraught with sorrow and pain because God is not found on the easy path and never will be.  He demands that we be willing to forfeit our own will and accept his will for our lives.

 

He demands of a humble, broken heart that is willing to say, "Not my will, but thine be done".  As much as we know this truth we remain incredibly gullible to the temptations and guidance of the evil one.  We wake up and conscious of his machinations by walking with the Spirit in humility.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Storm Rider