Recent Church Actions (Nyt Link)

[Danzo]

Can someone really smart here figure out an algorithm predicting how many posts before a random thread derails into a discussion of SSM?

 

or a discussion of blacks and the priesthood.

[guerreiro9]

Could you provide some more info and references for this, it is so totally sideways, I'd like to read more about it.

Here is another publication. I find this one a little easier to follow.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=U8qjU_aeNdGSyASdwoHgDQ&url=http://digitalcommons.mcmaster.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1006%26context%3Dnexus&cd=17&ved=0CC4QFjAGOAo&usg=AFQjCNFDcLX_2o1ppQJiYRfUqEHvDvQcow&sig2=L2yiz2vE9OCHWAl2lxy8rg

Would you find it less sideways that a society promotes cannibalism or homosexuality? For me I find cannibalism more surprising yet for some reason no one denies that cannibalism was normalized by some cultures yet they will vehemently deny that a culture could normalize homosexual acts.

-guerreiro9

[Danzo]

I think you are probably right.

 

But then again, I have a friend in Utah County who had her temple recommend taken by her Bishop because she posted that viral gay marriage proposal video (Utah Home Depot?) on her FB wall.

 

And she did nothing else? the bishop, without discussion walked up to her in church and asked for her recommend?

[rockpond]

I don't want her kicked out. I want her to reconcile with the Lord and serve in full fellowship.

You have evidence that she isn't reconciled with the Lord and serving in full fellowship?

[rockpond]

There might not be any danger in everyone adopting a homosexual lifestyle. but there is great danger in adopting the attitude that "its not a choice" ("it" being whatever sin you are having trouble with) and just assuming that "small percentages of the population are naturally (forced to sin)." and therefore are exempt from "choice"

Ummm... But your sexual orientation is NOT a choice. How you choose to act on it is a choice. But we need to be clear about the distinction there.

[Avatar4321]

You have evidence that she isn't reconciled with the Lord and serving in full fellowship?

 

Seriously? We wouldn't be talking about her otherwise.

[rockpond]

Here is another publication. I find this one a little easier to follow.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=U8qjU_aeNdGSyASdwoHgDQ&url=http://digitalcommons.mcmaster.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1006%26context%3Dnexus&cd=17&ved=0CC4QFjAGOAo&usg=AFQjCNFDcLX_2o1ppQJiYRfUqEHvDvQcow&sig2=L2yiz2vE9OCHWAl2lxy8rg

Would you find it less sideways that a society promotes cannibalism or homosexuality? For me I find cannibalism more surprising yet for some reason no one denies that cannibalism was normalized by some cultures yet they will vehemently deny that a culture could normalize homosexual acts.

-guerreiro9

Sexual acts can be normalized. You provided an example of that. But I don't see any evidence that culture can have an impact on percentage of people who are naturally homosexual.

[Danzo]

Well, it looks like she may very well get kicked out.  So you win.  Except that you don't... we all lose.

Unless you believe (like I do) that church discipline, is something that is inspired and can benefit the church and the one that it was administered to.

 

We all Win!

[rockpond]

Seriously? We wouldn't be talking about her otherwise.

So you've decided that because a disciplinary council has been called that she must not be reconciled with the Lord?

Sounds like you are assuming guilt. I think that's unfair unless you have evidence to support such a conclusion.

[Danzo]

Ummm... But your sexual orientation is NOT a choice. How you choose to act on it is a choice. But we need to be clear about the distinction there.

 

Are any of our thoughts choices?

Don't we all need to control how we act?

 

By giving one group a pass on their actions based on a (self defined "orientation") aren't we giving everyone a pass?

Edited June 20, 2014 by Danzo

[Avatar4321]

So you've decided that because a disciplinary council has been called that she must not be reconciled with the Lord?

Sounds like you are assuming guilt. I think that's unfair unless you have evidence to support such a conclusion.

 

I don't have to assume anything. When one is in open rebellion for all the world to see, the world can see it. All one has to do is read what she and the others are saying and see the rebellious spirit in them.

 

To be reconciled with God, we have to submit to Him. We have to accept our circumstances and what He calls for us and not fight against it. We have to become as a child, willing to submit to all things.

 

It's very difficult to do sometimes. But you can't spit in the Lord's face and expect everything to be hunky dory.

 

Demanding priesthood doesn't work. We can't demand anything from God. We can't purchase anything with money. We have to accept His gifts at His terms or we have no right to them.

[guerreiro9]

Sexual acts can be normalized. You provided an example of that. But I don't see any evidence that culture can have an impact on percentage of people who are naturally homosexual.

"Naturally" under what conditions? "Naturally" in what culture? Who defines what it means to be "naturally homosexual"? You? Me?

You're too black and white on this issue rockpond. Sexuality is much more nuanced than "you are or you ain't".

As an aside if our culture strongly encouraged left-handedness, what percentage of the population do you think would believe they were right handed?

-guerreiro9

[Storm Rider]

Depends on the person, I guess. We're set up to monitor each other's activities and many people seem to have a good time doing it. Nearly each week I'm at Church someone asks me about something that I know I didn't mention to anyone. Where they getting their info? my wife's facebook or instragram. I realize I live an exceptionally exciting life, but there are others. It seems Dehlin get's monitored by people too. I hear many a comment about what he said here or there, offering criticisms and complaints or praises and support. People at another site, not to be named, are seemingly obsessed with Dan Peterson and others, ready to pounce upon anything they feel ought to be mocked or derided. I don't know how people have the time or interest either, but it's fairly common, it seems to me.

I wouldn't doubt there are bishops eager to learn the thoughts of certain ward members so they take to social media to find out what they're saying. If interested they start to "follow". Soon monitoring could take place. Can't say I'd put it past local leaders.

 

I disagree with you.  If we were "set up to monitor each other" I would have heard about it.  There is nothing the Church teaches that would cause us to monitor the thoughts and actions of each member.  We are better at putting out fires in a service capacity; when someone is sick, we respond, etc.  

 

Humans are curious and backbitting; some more than others.  This is not the responsibility of the Church and did not create such a characteristic.  

 

Besides, what were you doing last night at 9:37 p.m. leaving that house?  I saw you were straightening your shirt and it made me think, "why you would be doing that since it was not your home?"

[cdowis]

I don't want her kicked out. I want her to reconcile with the Lord and serve in full fellowship.

 

I'm sure you understand that is the ultimate goal of excommunication -->>>  not to "kick them out" of the church, but to make it possible for them to repent and get back into full fellowship.  But that is going to be their choice.  

Edited June 20, 2014 by cdowis

[Avatar4321]

I'm sure you understand that is the ultimate goal of excommunication -->>>  not to "kick them out" of the church, but to make it possible for them to repent and get back into full fellowship.  But that is going to be their choice.  

 

I do. Im not sure rock does though.

[Bart Burk]

I sometimes wonder if in the midst of all of this politics we forget to focus on what's important.  I'm extremely conservative when it comes to same sex marriage and the work of women in the church, but do we get too caught up in trying to censor people instead of persuading them?  There is a part of me which thinks that when such groups are given publicity, the get more power than they deserve.  It is not as if the LDS Church is going to change because of these dissidents. Focus on what's important ...

 

 

 

“Satan trembles when he sees the weakest saint upon his knees. But Satan laughs without restraints when saints go clobbering other saints.” - Ruth Graham

Edited June 20, 2014 by Bart Burk

[Senator]

I did not say it but the OW mission statement does.

 

http://ordainwomen.org/mission/

 

What do you think they mean? I am only commenting on your post because you stated that I said it but it was actually said by OW. My question was: is this mission statement a statement of apostacy?

 

The statement says, "God is male and female, father and mother, and all of us can progress to be like them someday."

 

I see nothing heretical about it.

[Yirgacheffe]

Here is another publication. I find this one a little easier to follow.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=U8qjU_aeNdGSyASdwoHgDQ&url=http://digitalcommons.mcmaster.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1006%26context%3Dnexus&cd=17&ved=0CC4QFjAGOAo&usg=AFQjCNFDcLX_2o1ppQJiYRfUqEHvDvQcow&sig2=L2yiz2vE9OCHWAl2lxy8rg

Would you find it less sideways that a society promotes cannibalism or homosexuality? For me I find cannibalism more surprising yet for some reason no one denies that cannibalism was normalized by some cultures yet they will vehemently deny that a culture could normalize homosexual acts.

-guerreiro9

Cannibalism is  just as sideways and a whole lot more gruesome.  I'm not denying anything here and I didn't mean to challenge you on this it's just that I have read about societies with normalized cannibalism but not about societies with normalized homosexuality.  I jumped the gun asking you about it without reading further in the thread.  This morning I saw your posts providing links to people who asked for them much earlier than I did, I should have finished the thread.  Thanks for the links (especially for easy to follow, I can always use easy) it is interesting stuff.

[Duncan]

Yes, but did you in any way support SSM in those emails? That's what Seth's getting at. But posting a sweet video, you get your TR taken away? Seems a little out of whack to me.

 

no, but um you know I tease Church culture sometimes! and I despise bureacracy

[rockpond]

Are any of our thoughts choices?

Don't we all need to control how we act?

By giving one group a pass on their actions based on a (self defined "orientation") aren't we giving everyone a pass?

Now you are introducing "thoughts" into the mix which are also distinct from both actions and one's orientation. But of course, we are responsible for how we act.

And I have not suggested that anyone be given a pass.

[guerreiro9]

Cannibalism is just as sideways and a whole lot more gruesome. I'm not denying anything here and I didn't mean to challenge you on this it's just that I have read about societies with normalized cannibalism but not about societies with normalized homosexuality. I jumped the gun asking you about it without reading further in the thread. This morning I saw your posts providing links to people who asked for them much earlier than I did, I should have finished the thread. Thanks for the links (especially for easy to follow, I can always use easy) it is interesting stuff.

The cannibalism comment was not meant as an attack against you, but as an opening thought to give you some perspective before reading the posted link.

A few years ago I took a university course on human sexuality. As part of that course I was required to write a research paper on the prevalence of homosexuality in nonwestern cultures. What I found was surprising and completely changed my preconceptions about sexuality. I do not claim to be an expert in this area (my background is physics and engineering), but the material was abundant and easily found, in fact most of it was in our text book.

Despite this I have found that whenever I mention what I learned to people they vehemently deny the findings. For some reason people will not entertain the possibility that their sexuality is influenced by their culture, but will freely admit that their culture had an influence on whether they were willing to eat other people.

Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps my text book was wrong, but there sure seems to be a whole lot of information suggesting that your sexuality (including whether you engage in homosexuality) is strongly influenced by your culture.

The Melanesians are just the extreme example.

-guerreiro9

[Storm Rider]

The cannibalism comment was not meant as an attack against you, but as an opening thought to give you some perspective before reading the posted link.

A few years ago I took a university course on human sexuality. As part of that course I was required to write a research paper on the prevalence of homosexuality in nonwestern cultures. What I found was surprising and completely changed my preconceptions about sexuality. I do not claim to be an expert in this area (my background is physics and engineering), but the material was abundant and easily found, in fact most of it was in our text book.

Despite this I have found that whenever I mention what I learned to people they vehemently deny the findings. For some reason people will not entertain the possibility that their sexuality is influenced by their culture, but will freely admit that their culture had an influence on whether they were willing to eat other people.

Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps my text book was wrong, but there sure seems to be a whole lot of information suggesting that your sexuality (including whether you engage in homosexuality) is strongly influenced by your culture.

The Melanesians are just the extreme example.

-guerreiro9

 

Does that mean that cultures should outlaw those behaviors they deem unfavorable?

[Avatar4321]

 

I sometimes wonder if in the midst of all of this politics we forget to focus on what's important.  I'm extremely conservative when it comes to same sex marriage and the work of women in the church, but do we get too caught up in trying to censor people instead of persuading them?  There is a part of me which thinks that when such groups are given publicity, the get more power than they deserve.  It is not as if the LDS Church is going to change because of these dissidents. Focus on what's important ...

 

 

“Satan trembles when he sees the weakest saint upon his knees. But Satan laughs without restraints when saints go clobbering other saints.” - Ruth Graham

 

 

That is the point of disciplinary councils. They area there to persuade people to repent before they lose out on the promised blessings.

[why me]

The statement says, "God is male and female, father and mother, and all of us can progress to be like them someday."

 

I see nothing heretical about it.

Is god both man and woman, male and female? I believe that OW is playing with words. It should say this: We are children of heavenly parents and all us can progress to be like them someday. But by saying that god is both man and woman it delutes the concept of heavenly parents and makes god a god who has both genders. Here is an interesting read:

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng&query=heavenly+mother

 

It is very clear that god is He with the pronoun his.

 

From the link:

 

Conclusion

All human beings are children of loving heavenly parents and possess seeds of divinity within them. In His infinite love, God invites His children to cultivate their eternal potential by the grace of God, through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ.⁵⁶ The doctrine of humans’ eternal potential to become like their Heavenly Father is central to the gospel of Jesus Christ and inspires love, hope, and gratitude in the hearts of faithful Latter-day Saints.

Edited June 20, 2014 by why me

[Bart Burk]

That is the point of disciplinary councils. They area there to persuade people to repent before they lose out on the promised blessings.

 

Or are they there to assert power over people?  It seems to me they can persuade people without calling a disciplinary council.  Pray for them. Teach the truth in love. I don't think people respond very well to getting punched in the face even if it is only figuratively.