Recent Church Actions (Nyt Link)

[rockpond]

Considering them to be YOUR tithing dollars means you do not get the principle.

 

I believe you know what I meant, I'm quite clear on the principle.  But, I will rephrase if you'd like:  It's good to know that the Church is spending the Lord's consecrated funds on monitoring the social media activities of select members.

 

Better?

[rockpond]

In this instance, the reason why Paul wasn't excommunicated (or even disciplined for that matter) is because Peter knew he was wrong to have indulged the Judaizing sensibilities of semi-converted Jewish converts to Christ. Peter feared that if these proud former Jews saw him sharing a meal with the Gentiles, in disobedience to the Law of Moses, he might lose these touchy semi-converts before they could be brought to understand that the Law of Moses was abolished and a great many of its strictures -- such as not being allowed to mingle with "unclean" Gentiles -- were no longer in force nor applicable. This was likely a onetime incident where things were smoothed out between Peter and Paul before they both retired to bed.

It's also important to note that Paul was an Apostle, and it's not at all uncommon for the General Authorities to disagree with one another from time to time.

Now in the case of Kate, her disobedience to the counsel of the presiding Church authorities has been going on for many months now, and she still shows no apparent sign of relenting in her misguided efforts. Your attempt to compare Peter and Paul's passing incident with Kate's ongoing defiance to the counsel of the General authorities is an apples and oranges comparison that doesn't really work. Sorry to pop your bubble.

 

Do we have evidence that Kelly was actually defiant to the general authorities of the church?  It seemed like they pretty much ignored her.

[rockpond]

Really?  The association is not apparent to you?

 

No.

[rockpond]

It is a fact which has been documented. There has been coordinated effort of promoting the homosexual lifestyle to soften the public's attitude toward homosexuality.

 

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/hollywoods-gay-culture-reshaping-america

 

http://www.catholic.net/index.php?option=dedestaca&id=168

 

Of course, it is all open to debate. But it shouldn't be just dismissed as nonsense.

 

Your evidence comes from two Catholic publications?  That doesn't prove a "coordinated effort of promoting the homosexual lifestyle to soften the public's attitude toward homosexuality".  It just proves that the Catholics view it that way -- which shouldn't come as a surprise to any of us.

[Senator]

And I believe it is naive to think that the negative effects of same sex marriage on society are minimal.

 

We are watching the breakdown of the family before our eyes.  I am confident you are aware of the statistical support for that claim over the past several decades.  Many things likely contribute to divorces, infidelity, abuse, and the significant trend of people not marrying or forming families.

I am far more confident that divorce, infidelity ,abuse ,economic stress, neglect, selfishness, mental illness, combined or individually, contribute more to the breakdown of families, so much so, that the contribution from SSM would indeed be minimal in comparison.

It is therefore interesting in my mind how SSM has become the Normandy of society's fate.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Senator

[guerreiro9]

The thing is, we understand that there is no risk of everyone "adopting a homosexual lifestyle". It's not a choice and there seems to be a consistently small percentage of the population who are naturally homosexual.

Actually there have been a few of societies where the entire male population adopted homosexuality. I see no reason why its promotion won't increase its prevalence. Every other human characteristic behaves in this manner and sexuality is not exempt.

-guerreiro9

[Pahoran]

If publically airing ones doctrinal and other greavances with ones preisthood authorities is an excommunicable offense like this recent rash of witch hunts has shown,

Pardon me for interrupting your slogan-chanting, but what "witch hunts?"

Regards,

Pahoran

[Senator]

Actually there have been a few of societies where the entire male population adopted homosexuality.

 

 

CFR

[omni]

Can someone really smart here figure out an algorithm predicting how many posts before a random thread derails into a discussion of SSM?

Edited June 20, 2014 by omni

[sethpayne]

Can someone really smart here figure out an algorithm predicting how many posts before a random thread derails into a discussion of SSM?

 

I had to use Mathematica 9 to perform the necessary calculations but on an average thread the probability of SSM becoming a topic of discussion after 15 replies approaches .861.  However, if Wade is involved in the thread the probability approaches 1 after just 3 replies.  

[guerreiro9]

CFR

 

Here's a scholarly article you can actually read without purchasing it:

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/120504423/RITUALIZED-HOMOSEXUAL-BEHAVIOR-IN-THE-MALE-CULTS-OF-MELANESIA-1862-1983-AN-INTRODUCTION

 

There are plenty more just about Melanesia, do a Google search for Melanesia Ritualized Homosexuality if you need more information.

 

Whatever your view on normal sexuality (hetero or homo) that is only normal in your culture.  Other cultures have entirely different views that do not include definitions of "straight" or "gay", and it is certainly a lot larger percentage of the society than just 5 - 10% that engage in these behaviors.

 

-guerreiro9

[sethpayne]

 

 

Whatever your view on normal sexuality (hetero or homo) that is only normal in your culture.  Other cultures have entirely different views that do not include definitions of "straight" or "gay", and it is certainly a lot larger percentage of the society than just 5 - 10% that engage in these behaviors.

 

-guerreiro9

 

Del

Edited June 20, 2014 by sethpayne

[sethpayne]

Here's a scholarly article you can actually read without purchasing it:

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/120504423/RITUALIZED-HOMOSEXUAL-BEHAVIOR-IN-THE-MALE-CULTS-OF-MELANESIA-1862-1983-AN-INTRODUCTION

 

There are plenty more just about Melanesia, do a Google search for Melanesia Ritualized Homosexuality if you need more information.

 

Whatever your view on normal sexuality (hetero or homo) that is only normal in your culture.  Other cultures have entirely different views that do not include definitions of "straight" or "gay", and it is certainly a lot larger percentage of the society than just 5 - 10% that engage in these behaviors.

 

-guerreiro9

 

 

Problems with my other reply....

 

I think Samoa's third gender, Fa'afafine is really fascinating.  Really interesting to see how other cultures contextualize uncommon gender traits.

[Calm]

If OW believe that women must be ordained into the priesthood, there is not much room for reaching a compromise. By putting the word must in their mission statement they basically said that they will fight until women are granted the priesthood. And since that is the case, what benefit would it have been for the GAs to meet them?

They also made it obvious IMO that they would present accommodations from the Church as concessions, making it difficult for leadership to interact in positive ways with them without it being made to appear they were agreeing with or at least okay OW's goals and actions. The Church would not be able to control the narrative of what meeting with them would mean. No trust that it wouldn't be spun has been established over the existence of the organization.

For example, if they had let women attend PHsession, that would be interpreted as agreeing that the women were prospective elders. Another example, the second protest on Temple Square they were apparently met before they came on the square and asked not to enter. They went ahead anyway. Later it was spun by Kelly IMO that the Church leadership was okay with them being on the square since they weren't "asked" to leave once they were on TS...another OW member's version of being asked to leave was being escorted off the property by security. Given the big to do about the small maintenance truck blocking the doors the first time they protested, can you imagine what would have happened with pictures of security escorting them off grounds? The Church was in a no win situation, but I find it remarkable anyone had the nerve to say they hadn't been asked to leave given the letter asking them not to do it and the in person refusal which they ignored and the fact that apparently the usually unlocked gate they had announced they would go through was locked and they only got through because Kelly grabbed it when someone used it to leave according to a report of an OW participant.

Edited to remove incorrect detail about Kelly and add more accurate info overall

Edited June 25, 2014 by calmoriah

[The Nehor]

I believe you know what I meant, I'm quite clear on the principle.  But, I will rephrase if you'd like:  It's good to know that the Church is spending the Lord's consecrated funds on monitoring the social media activities of select members.

 

Better?

 

Sure, I support this use of funds. We have a scriptural imperative to record the naysayers. I would like to work in that department. Sounds fun.

[Calm]

The thing is, we understand that there is no risk of everyone "adopting a homosexual lifestyle". It's not a choice and there seems to be a consistently small percentage of the population who are naturally homosexual. So you're comparison relies on a public health concern that doesn't exist.

plus everyone agrees that individual suffering occurs from cancer, obesity, etc. There lacks the consensus that homosexuality is damaging to the individual, so it is only when homosexuality becomes significant enough to impact birth rate (asuming it even would given the possibility of artificial insemination) that it would be viewed in the same category as diseases impacting overall public health.

One could claim choosing morality by abstaining from sex outside of marriage cuts down on the birth rate and oppose that on the same grounds that if it becomes universal to remain unmarried and celibate, humankind is doomed in one generation so Chasity should be seen as a public health concern.

There are too many other variables involved for this type of limited argument to work. Too many unlikely iffs would have to kick in.

I think you (Brown) need another argument.

Edited June 20, 2014 by calmoriah

[Stone holm]

I had to use Mathematica 9 to perform the necessary calculations but on an average thread the probability of SSM becoming a topic of discussion after 15 replies approaches .861.  However, if Wade is involved in the thread the probability approaches 1 after just 3 replies.  

Lol...

[Calm]

However, holllywood has been stressing the homosexual lifestyle for years because many TV series have a homosexual character in it. Why? Why the need to promote the homosexual lifestyle on the TV if only a small percentage of the population are homosexuals? And has the prominence of homosexual characters on the TV helped turn people's attitudes in accepting SSM and in adopting a homosexual lifestyle?

Is there any sign that homosexuality has increased significantly or that it can be projected that sometime in the future the rate will be significant enough to impact the overall birth rate or even become universal?

[Stone holm]

Sure, I support this use of funds. We have a scriptural imperative to record the naysayers. I would like to work in that department. Sounds fun.

Perhaps we should start stockpiling rocks as well. Would someone explain why this isn't turning into a PR nightmare again, didn't quite understand the response.

[The Nehor]

Perhaps we should start stockpiling rocks as well. Would someone explain why this isn't turning into a PR nightmare again, didn't quite understand the response.

 

Because a PR nightmare would be more then a few lousy easily forgettable articles.

[Duncan]

Problems with my other reply....

 

I think Samoa's third gender, Fa'afafine is really fascinating.  Really interesting to see how other cultures contextualize uncommon gender traits.

 

the Canadian and American Psychology Associations disagree on what causes homosexuality-one says nature and one says nurture

[Calm]

Actually there have been a few of societies where the entire male population adopted homosexuality. I see no reason why its promotion won't increase its prevalence. Every other human characteristic behaves in this manner and sexuality is not exempt.

-guerreiro9

The question though is if it is only a problem because of birth rate, does the promotion of accepting it as normal (I assume people can agree the media is promoting it in this fashion whether or not they think this a good idea) in our society likely to have a significant impact on birth rate. If unlikelt, such an argument should be dispensed with, IMO.

[Calm]

the Canadian and American Psychology Associations disagree on what causes homosexuality-one says nature and one says nurture

CFR please....

[rockpond]

Actually there have been a few of societies where the entire male population adopted homosexuality. I see no reason why its promotion won't increase its prevalence. Every other human characteristic behaves in this manner and sexuality is not exempt.

-guerreiro9

 

Every other human characteristic behaves in this manner?  I don't believe that's correct.  Left-handedness was widely discouraged in previous generations.  Did that change the percentages?

[rockpond]

Here's a scholarly article you can actually read without purchasing it:

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/120504423/RITUALIZED-HOMOSEXUAL-BEHAVIOR-IN-THE-MALE-CULTS-OF-MELANESIA-1862-1983-AN-INTRODUCTION

 

There are plenty more just about Melanesia, do a Google search for Melanesia Ritualized Homosexuality if you need more information.

 

Whatever your view on normal sexuality (hetero or homo) that is only normal in your culture.  Other cultures have entirely different views that do not include definitions of "straight" or "gay", and it is certainly a lot larger percentage of the society than just 5 - 10% that engage in these behaviors.

 

-guerreiro9

 

Per the article, this is an initiation rite with religious overtones.  Further, the article states that the men involved go on to marry women and become fathers.  A ritualized sexual behavior (however abhorrent it might seem to us) does not indicate that they have become homosexual nor that they are choosing a homosexual lifestyle.  It has no bearing on the percentage of people born homosexual nor does the article show an increase in homosexuality within the Melanesian society, initiation rites aside.