sethpayne Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 Can you tell us a little more about your encounter with the SCMC Strike Team Commandos? Did they attempt to disorient you with a flash-bang grenade, use TASERs, tear gas, pepper-spray, K-9s? Indeed.
The Nehor Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 I've heard that the black helicopters are used for transporting Commandos from the SCMC Strike Team : They're jack-booted and black-clad from head-to-toe, and they carry fully automatic weapons, ammunition, and other tools of ... persuasion. Operations are conducted by performing aerial insertions into the houses of members who need ... Uhhh, I think "correction" is the word they use ... by zip-lining from the helicopter into a window. But I wouldn't want to spread any rumors, or anything. We're actually called the Danites but we do not use that name much publicly. Tonight we have a raid to "convince" a little old lady to stop drinking tea and an abduction order on a guy who asked a question to his bishop about polygamy. Usually that kind reeducation only takes a few days of therapy in the Torture Chamber of Faithfulness. Will let you know how it goes. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) I tried to do a search and nothing came up. I am not sure I want to go through the entire Aug 8, 1992 edition (well, minus the business, sports, ads, comics, etc) to find the relevant article.Spare yourself. This is not worth the drudgery of examining a 22-year-old edition of the Tribune. Edited June 21, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 I've heard that the black helicopters are used for transporting Commandos from the SCMC Strike Team : They're jack-booted and black-clad from head-to-toe, and they carry fully automatic weapons, ammunition, and other tools of ... persuasion. Operations are conducted by performing aerial insertions into the houses of members who need ... Uhhh, I think "correction" is the word they use ... by zip-lining from the helicopter into a window.But I wouldn't want to spread any rumors, or anything. Their methods are generally a bit more subtile than that. They are very effective de-programmers. Did I mention I was a member of Young Democrats in college?
Stone holm Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 I noticed that Terry Tempest Williams has come out in defense of Kate Kelly, so I guess the snowball will probably be growing, not descalating.
why me Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 I noticed that Terry Tempest Williams has come out in defense of Kate Kelly, so I guess the snowball will probably be growing, not descalating.These are interesting times. I have seen two churches these days. The internet church where even active members are being critical of church policy and its leaders. The internet church is becoming very splintered, with active members openly being hostile toward the lds church. In the past the sides were clear: the members vs. the critics. There was also a clear distinction between apologists and critics. Not now as more and more members are hostile toward church leaders and their decisions. And the sunday church where members look unified and supportive of local and general leaders. I would assume that the internet church is more true to the what is happening in the church these days. IMO, this is a sign that the church has lost control of the conversation and the narrative. It is under threat. When organizations that claim to be supportive of the church make claims that the church must do this or that, shows that such an organization doesn't understand modern day revelation and inspiration. This is not a bottom up church where members get inspiration for the GAs. We see this also on internet boards that are pro-church. Active members actively being critical of the leaders, engaging in argument with other active members about leadership policies or lack of policies. I have not seen this before and I have been posting on boards for almost a decade now. Bottomline: the church is coming apart on the internet and if I were an investigator and if the missionaries told me about modern day revelation and about how the church has a prophet to lead its members in the last days and if I came to the internet and saw such major criticism of lds leaders from people who are active members of the church, I would have to tell the missionaries that their church seems very divided when it comes to their own leaders inspirations and revelations. And as such, how can I join such a confused church? I would expect ex members and critics to be negative but not active members. I would not join or be interested in the lds church. My opinion: the problem will escalate...then subside after a house cleaning and then the church will come back stronger just has it has done in the past. Look at the time of Joseph Smith and just how many people left or were excommunicated...and the church became stronger. When Joseph died, people left over disagreements about who should lead....but the church got stronger. And it will happen again, if it is the true church of Jesus Christ.
teddyaware Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) These are interesting times. I have seen two churches these days. The internet church where even active members are being critical of church policy and its leaders. The internet church is becoming very splintered, with active members openly being hostile toward the lds church. In the past the sides were clear: the members vs. the critics. There was also a clear distinction between apologists and critics. Not now as more and more members are hostile toward church leaders and their decisions. And the sunday church where members look unified and supportive of local and general leaders. I would assume that the internet church is more true to the what is happening in the church these days. IMO, this is a sign that the church has lost control of the conversation and the narrative. It is under threat. When organizations that claim to be supportive of the church make claims that the church must do this or that, shows that such an organization doesn't understand modern day revelation and inspiration. This is not a bottom up church where members get inspiration for the GAs. We see this also on internet boards that are pro-church. Active members actively being critical of the leaders, engaging in argument with other active members about leadership policies or lack of policies. I have not seen this before and I have been posting on boards for almost a decade now. Bottomline: the church is coming apart on the internet and if I were an investigator and if the missionaries told me about modern day revelation and about how the church has a prophet to lead its members in the last days and if I came to the internet and saw such major criticism of lds leaders from people who are active members of the church, I would have to tell the missionaries that their church seems very divided when it comes to their own leaders inspirations and revelations. And as such, how can I join such a confused church? I would expect ex members and critics to be negative but not active members. I would not join or be interested in the lds church. My opinion: the problem will escalate...then subside after a house cleaning and then the church will come back stronger just has it has done in the past. Look at the time of Joseph Smith and just how many people left or were excommunicated...and the church became stronger. When Joseph died, people left over disagreements about who should lead....but the church got stronger. And it will happen again, if it is the true church of Jesus Christ. While I agree with your post, I must say that according to the scriptures, it was a rare time indeed when the members of the Lord's kingdom were genuinely united. We have the City of Enoch, the "golden age" of the Nephites, and perhaps the early Utah period of the restored Church. But beside these rare examples, there's precious little additional information to indicate there were other lasting periods of solidarity among the people of God. Because mere membership in the Church constitutes a refiner's fire that rigorously tries the faith and integrity of each of the Lord's people, it seems divisiveness will almost inevitably come with the territory. Edited June 21, 2014 by teddyaware
rockpond Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 These are interesting times. I have seen two churches these days. The internet church where even active members are being critical of church policy and its leaders. The internet church is becoming very splintered, with active members openly being hostile toward the lds church. In the past the sides were clear: the members vs. the critics. There was also a clear distinction between apologists and critics. Not now as more and more members are hostile toward church leaders and their decisions.And the sunday church where members look unified and supportive of local and general leaders. I would assume that the internet church is more true to the what is happening in the church these days.IMO, this is a sign that the church has lost control of the conversation and the narrative. It is under threat. When organizations that claim to be supportive of the church make claims that the church must do this or that, shows that such an organization doesn't understand modern day revelation and inspiration. This is not a bottom up church where members get inspiration for the GAs. We see this also on internet boards that are pro-church. Active members actively being critical of the leaders, engaging in argument with other active members about leadership policies or lack of policies. I have not seen this before and I have been posting on boards for almost a decade now.Bottomline: the church is coming apart on the internet and if I were an investigator and if the missionaries told me about modern day revelation and about how the church has a prophet to lead its members in the last days and if I came to the internet and saw such major criticism of lds leaders from people who are active members of the church, I would have to tell the missionaries that their church seems very divided when it comes to their own leaders inspirations and revelations. And as such, how can I join such a confused church? I would expect ex members and critics to be negative but not active members. I would not join or be interested in the lds church.My opinion: the problem will escalate...then subside after a house cleaning and then the church will come back stronger just has it has done in the past. Look at the time of Joseph Smith and just how many people left or were excommunicated...and the church became stronger. When Joseph died, people left over disagreements about who should lead....but the church got stronger. And it will happen again, if it is the true church of Jesus Christ.I think there will always be members who speak up when they perceive injustices, especially injustices that seem rooted in the philosophies of men rather than revelation from God. Additionally, seeking after truth is practically part of our DNA as latter-day saints.
bluebell Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 I noticed that Terry Tempest Williams has come out in defense of Kate Kelly, so I guess the snowball will probably be growing, not descalating. Especially when some members, like Williams, do everything they can to make sure it continues to escalate. 1
why me Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) While I agree with your post, I must say that according to the scriptures, it was a rare time indeed when the members of the Lord's kingdom were genuinely united. We have the City of Enoch, the "golden age" of the Nephites, and perhaps the early Utah period of the restored Church. But beside these rare examples, there's precious little additional information to indicate there were other lasting periods of solidarity among the people of God. Because mere membership in the Church constitutes a refiner's fire that rigorously tries the faith and integrity of each of the Lord's people, it seems divisiveness will almost inevitably come with the territory.I also agree with your post. However, it has only been recently that I have seen so much disharmony among the active members of the church.on the internet. Not only are apologists debating critics and exmembers but now they also have to encounter active members disagreeing with church leaders, implying that they are no longer inspired by god. And this is quite a change. My point was simple: if missionaries teach investigators that the lds prophet is guided by revelation and that the GAs are truly inspired by god, and if this investigator would go to the internet they would see a totally different church than what the missionaries say it is.Not only would they see critics and exmembers being negative about the leaders but also active members. I, the investigator, would have to think that lds church is not united and that something was wrong within it. That many members no longer believe in their leaders. And what would that say to me the investigator? Time to move on. I believe that we are at that time when disunity and disharmony will be the norm until something changes and harmony is allowed to grow and prosper. And I have to wonder if OW is responsible for such divisiveness. And if that is so, it is something to consider. Edited June 21, 2014 by why me
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) These are interesting times. I have seen two churches these days. The internet church where even active members are being critical of church policy and its leaders. The internet church is becoming very splintered, with active members openly being hostile toward the lds church. In the past the sides were clear: the members vs. the critics. There was also a clear distinction between apologists and critics. Not now as more and more members are hostile toward church leaders and their decisions.And the sunday church where members look unified and supportive of local and general leaders. I would assume that the internet church is more true to the what is happening in the church these days.IMO, this is a sign that the church has lost control of the conversation and the narrative. It is under threat. When organizations that claim to be supportive of the church make claims that the church must do this or that, shows that such an organization doesn't understand modern day revelation and inspiration. This is not a bottom up church where members get inspiration for the GAs. We see this also on internet boards that are pro-church. Active members actively being critical of the leaders, engaging in argument with other active members about leadership policies or lack of policies. I have not seen this before and I have been posting on boards for almost a decade now.Bottomline: the church is coming apart on the internet and if I were an investigator and if the missionaries told me about modern day revelation and about how the church has a prophet to lead its members in the last days and if I came to the internet and saw such major criticism of lds leaders from people who are active members of the church, I would have to tell the missionaries that their church seems very divided when it comes to their own leaders inspirations and revelations. And as such, how can I join such a confused church? I would expect ex members and critics to be negative but not active members. I would not join or be interested in the lds church.My opinion: the problem will escalate...then subside after a house cleaning and then the church will come back stronger just has it has done in the past. Look at the time of Joseph Smith and just how many people left or were excommunicated...and the church became stronger. When Joseph died, people left over disagreements about who should lead....but the church got stronger. And it will happen again, if it is the true church of Jesus Christ.It's easy to get a distorted view from a relatively few strident and loud voices on the Internet. I'm not convinced that they are more reflective of reality than what you call the "Sunday Church". Of the active members of my ward, I can think of only one or two who would be interested enough to follow what people are saying about the Church on the Internet, much less, posting on it themselves. Moreover, just because an anonymous Internet writer purports to be "active" in the Church, that doesn't necessarily make it so. Remember the cartoon that depicts a dog at a computer monitor typing on a keyboard? The caption reads: "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog."I think of the mid-1980s when parts of Utah were beset with flooding and mudslides. From national news reports, people were getting the impression the entire state was inundated. In reality, only a few areas were affected. For most of us it was pretty much business as usual. Edited June 21, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 2
ERayR Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 Their methods are generally a bit more subtile than that. They are very effective de-programmers. Did I mention I was a member of Young Democrats in college? My faith in you just plummeted.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 My faith in you just plummeted. Ah, but, you see, I've been deprogrammed.
why me Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) It's easy to get a distorted view from a relatively few strident and loud voices on the Internet. I'm not convinced that they are more reflective of reality than what you call the "Sunday Church". Of the active members of my ward, I can think of only one or two who would be interested enough to follow what people are saying on the Internet.Moreover, just because an anonymous Interner writer purports to be "active" in the Church, that doesn't necessarily make it so. Remember the cartoon that depicts a dog at a computer monitor typing on a keyboard? The caption reads: "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog."I will send it to you in a private message. Edited June 21, 2014 by why me
ERayR Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 Ah, but, you see, I've been deprogrammed. OKAY we're good again.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 I will send it to you in a private message.I saw it already before you deleted it. But if you have anything to add, better use rscott@deseretnews.com. I think my PM box is full here on the board and I'm not in a position to clean it out right now.
why me Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 I saw it already before you deleted it.But if you have anything to add, better use rscott@deseretnews.com. I think my PM box is full here on the board and I'm not in a position to clean it out right now.I tried to send you a personal message. I am just glad that you didn't quote me. Nothing new to add but now you can understand my epiphany. It made me into a more reflective person about what is happening now on the internet with the church.
bluebell Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) I saw it already before you deleted it.But if you have anything to add, better use rscott@deseretnews.com. I think my PM box is full here on the board and I'm not in a position to clean it out right now. It is full. I tried to send you a PM last week and couldn't get thru, it had to do with someone quoting you in their signature line. I figured you probably knew about it already but wasn't sure. Edited June 21, 2014 by bluebell
halconero Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 I saw it already before you deleted it.But if you have anything to add, better use rscott@deseretnews.com. I think my PM box is full here on the board and I'm not in a position to clean it out right now. Slight derail, but do you happen to know R. Scott Taylor? He was my mission president (he's actually getting released in the next couple of weeks or so) in Phoenix and wrote for the sports section of DN.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 It is full. I tried to send you a PM last week and couldn't get thru, it had to do with someone quoting you in their signature line. I figured you probably knew about it already but wasn't sure.If it's on the Mormon Defamation Board, I think I've seen it. But feel free to message me at my DesNews address.
bluebell Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 If it's on the Mormon Defamation Board, I think I've seen it. But feel free to message me at my DesNews address. Nope, it's here on this board. Nothing horrible, i just wasn't sure you knew about it.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 Slight derail, but do you happen to know R. Scott Taylor? He was my mission president (he's actually getting released in the next couple of weeks or so) in Phoenix and wrote for the sports section of DN.I've known Scott for a long time. He's been at the Deseret News forever as have I. He was my colleague at the Church News briefly, then switched to the Daily side, where he wrote Mormon-related stuff before being called on his mission.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 Nope, it's here on this board. Nothing horrible, i just wasn't sure you knew about it.Now I am curious.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 I emailed you.Thanks, Bluebell. I think Maxrep12 is using the same sig line over on his milieu, the Mormon Defamation Board. I'm not much bothered by it. If I was taken by surprise, so what? I was in good company. I think many of us failed to realize how heavy handed and oppressive the federal judiciary could or would be in disrupting prevailing community standards. Needless to say, my eyes have been opened a great deal since them. I think it bodes ill for future issues pertaining to religious liberty and freedom of conscience. It behooves us to be vigilant now.
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