Pres. Mckay And Testimony Question

[Duncan]

I saw the kernel of this idea on a blog and was wondering what you thought. There are members of the Church like Pres. McKay and many, many others who pray for years to know if the Church is true, Book of Mormon is the word of God etc. why do we expect that people investigating the Church to get immediate answers? I heard a lady in the other ward that meets in me building say she joined the Church in 1968 or something yet didn't get an answer to her prayers about whether it was true or not till the late 1980's. I remember as a missionary we were trained on the "Loren C. Dunn" push prayer and also a "push interview" basically you pray with someone and they were ask if these things are true and they were to get an answer right then. The interview was basically the same but they met with a DL, ZL or AP and they talked them into joining the Church is what it was reduced to. Why do we expect instant answers yet others pray for years and years to get an answer? Thanks!

[JAHS]

I suppose those who are born and raised in the church might to some degree take it for granted and while they might believe it is true based on what they were taught, never actually receive a witness from the spirit about it until they are older and understand what that means.  For investigators it's more like a night and day thing where they hear it and might be convinced intellectually that it is true and might become baptized based on that because it's so much better than what they have ever known, but might not really feel the witness of the Holy Ghost until sometime later after they become more involved.

[Scott Lloyd]

I saw the kernel of this idea on a blog and was wondering what you thought. There are members of the Church like Pres. McKay and many, many others who pray for years to know if the Church is true, Book of Mormon is the word of God etc. why do we expect that people investigating the Church to get immediate answers? I heard a lady in the other ward that meets in me building say she joined the Church in 1968 or something yet didn't get an answer to her prayers about whether it was true or not till the late 1980's. I remember as a missionary we were trained on the "Loren C. Dunn" push prayer and also a "push interview" basically you pray with someone and they were ask if these things are true and they were to get an answer right then. The interview was basically the same but they met with a DL, ZL or AP and they talked them into joining the Church is what it was reduced to. Why do we expect instant answers yet others pray for years and years to get an answer? Thanks!

In many areas in life, we aim for the ideal, fully expecting to fall somewhat short of it. We aim high anyway, because we're trying for the best result we can get.

 

While not everyone will receive a testimony early on (perhaps most will not), there must be a least a few who will. In such cases, we need to facilitate their rapid conversion, not just for their own sakes but because they in turn become a strength to the Church in helping bring others to Christ, including their own immediate and extended family and the people in their ancestral lineages.

 

Just a thought off the top of my head in response to a good question.

[CV75]

I saw the kernel of this idea on a blog and was wondering what you thought. There are members of the Church like Pres. McKay and many, many others who pray for years to know if the Church is true, Book of Mormon is the word of God etc. why do we expect that people investigating the Church to get immediate answers? I heard a lady in the other ward that meets in me building say she joined the Church in 1968 or something yet didn't get an answer to her prayers about whether it was true or not till the late 1980's. I remember as a missionary we were trained on the "Loren C. Dunn" push prayer and also a "push interview" basically you pray with someone and they were ask if these things are true and they were to get an answer right then. The interview was basically the same but they met with a DL, ZL or AP and they talked them into joining the Church is what it was reduced to. Why do we expect instant answers yet others pray for years and years to get an answer? Thanks!

I think there might be a number of things going on, depending on one’s perspective and expectations. One is that the gift of faith (or perseverance, or tolerance for ambiguity, or intuition, or conscience or innate goodness or some other sanctifying attribute) is as precious as the gift of testimony or the power of the Holy Ghost, and God grants people the gifts they need. Another is that once our own expectations are met, we may expect the same for others, or that once we frame our own perspective, we perceive others as having or needing to adopt the same. Another is that sometimes perspective drives the expectation and at other times the expectation drives the perspective. Yet another is that the gifts enumerated above are valid forms of testimony (to some) or the actual testimony (to others) once viewed from another perspective or with another expectation, which can be influenced by the Holy Ghost. I think in a nutshell, God gives us what we need, and though we may not recognize it for various reasons it may still be workignsalvation in us, and as long as we are heading in the right direction, no harm/no foul.

[nosmelone]

I saw the kernel of this idea on a blog and was wondering what you thought. There are members of the Church like Pres. McKay and many, many others who pray for years to know if the Church is true, Book of Mormon is the word of God etc. why do we expect that people investigating the Church to get immediate answers? I heard a lady in the other ward that meets in me building say she joined the Church in 1968 or something yet didn't get an answer to her prayers about whether it was true or not till the late 1980's. I remember as a missionary we were trained on the "Loren C. Dunn" push prayer and also a "push interview" basically you pray with someone and they were ask if these things are true and they were to get an answer right then. The interview was basically the same but they met with a DL, ZL or AP and they talked them into joining the Church is what it was reduced to. Why do we expect instant answers yet others pray for years and years to get an answer? Thanks!

Loren C. Dunn was the area authority that was over my mission and we followed the same procedure. I must admit that it worked but I look back now and wish I could serve a "retention only" mission.  I think the process of pushing for immediate answers allows  the investigator to see what is important and what they should focus on in trying to obtain a testimony but I don't think it helps necessarily in gaining a sincere testimony.  I actually declined a handful of baptisms while doing interviews on my mission because they were rushed.  I didn't get any pushback for this but I assume the other missionaries in my district were a bit frustrated with me but they learned to make sure that their investigators were able to honestly answer interview questions.  I've never second guessed any of my baptismal declines either. lol

[Duncan]

Loren C. Dunn was the area authority that was over my mission and we followed the same procedure. I must admit that it worked but I look back now and wish I could serve a "retention only" mission.  I think the process of pushing for immediate answers allows  the investigator to see what is important and what they should focus on in trying to obtain a testimony but I don't think it helps necessarily in gaining a sincere testimony.  I actually declined a handful of baptisms while doing interviews on my mission because they were rushed.  I didn't get any pushback for this but I assume the other missionaries in my district were a bit frustrated with me but they learned to make sure that their investigators were able to honestly answer interview questions.  I've never second guessed any of my baptismal declines either. lol

 

thank you for that!, where did you serve?

[Coreyb]

I saw the kernel of this idea on a blog and was wondering what you thought. There are members of the Church like Pres. McKay and many, many others who pray for years to know if the Church is true, Book of Mormon is the word of God etc. why do we expect that people investigating the Church to get immediate answers? I heard a lady in the other ward that meets in me building say she joined the Church in 1968 or something yet didn't get an answer to her prayers about whether it was true or not till the late 1980's. I remember as a missionary we were trained on the "Loren C. Dunn" push prayer and also a "push interview" basically you pray with someone and they were ask if these things are true and they were to get an answer right then. The interview was basically the same but they met with a DL, ZL or AP and they talked them into joining the Church is what it was reduced to. Why do we expect instant answers yet others pray for years and years to get an answer? Thanks!

I was a bit soured to this approach to testimony building as a missionary. When missionary leaders decline recommending a potential convert for baptism because they don't "know" the book of Mormon is true, even if they are willing to believe and be baptized without a manifestation. For me, when a person is willing to believe, repent and change aspects of their lives, they should not be kept back for lack of "knowledge". I taught gospel epistemology using John 7:17 as much as I did using Moroni 10:3-5.

[theplains]

Doctrine and Covenants 46:10-13 says about the gifts given unto the church [presumably made up

of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]:

 

"And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in

your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church.  For all have not every gift given

unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God. To some

is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby. To some it is given by

the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins

of the world".

 

Why does the Holy Ghost only give the gift (i.e. testimony) of knowing Jesus Christ is the Son of

God and his atonement to only some of the church?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Duncan]

 

Doctrine and Covenants 46:10-13 says about the gifts given unto the church [presumably made up

of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]:

 

"And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in

your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church.  For all have not every gift given

unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God. To some

is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby. To some it is given by

the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins

of the world".

 

Why does the Holy Ghost only give the gift (i.e. testimony) of knowing Jesus Christ is the Son of

God and his atonement to only some of the church?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

 

we are to covet earnestly the best gifts 1 Corinthians 12:31

[Avatar4321]

I hadnt really thought of this issue before. Ill have to ponder this.

 

I would also point out it took Brigham Young two years of investigating the Church before he recieved his witness.

 

I recieved my witness relatively quickly. I don't know why. Maybe it's what i needed at the time.

[SamIam]

I saw the kernel of this idea on a blog and was wondering what you thought. There are members of the Church like Pres. McKay and many, many others who pray for years to know if the Church is true, Book of Mormon is the word of God etc. why do we expect that people investigating the Church to get immediate answers? I heard a lady in the other ward that meets in me building say she joined the Church in 1968 or something yet didn't get an answer to her prayers about whether it was true or not till the late 1980's. I remember as a missionary we were trained on the "Loren C. Dunn" push prayer and also a "push interview" basically you pray with someone and they were ask if these things are true and they were to get an answer right then. The interview was basically the same but they met with a DL, ZL or AP and they talked them into joining the Church is what it was reduced to. Why do we expect instant answers yet others pray for years and years to get an answer? Thanks!

 

Alma 32...we can expect that thier inquires will be met with sufficient to move them forward.  At some point what was adequate then will become insufficient and they will plant the seed of the previous harvest and seek a little bit more.  At some point they will seek and receive enough on that principle to be satisfied and move on to other matters. 

[Tiki]

11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.

12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

Read verse 14 again. Then again read verse 14.

[nosmelone]

thank you for that!, where did you serve?

I served in Louisville Kentucky. 

[thatjimguy]

I think immeidate answer come to investigators because they want to know.

 

It's my opinion that there a lot of people brought up in the LDS church that have gone through the motions all thier lives. Not to any fault of thier own mind you, they are just obeying their parents and to avoid trouble.

 

So I do not think that some truly ask because they tend not to question anything.

[rpn]

I think sometimes that confirmation of inspiration to be baptized is received before a testimony of things learned line upon line.    My dh would tell you that he knew he was supposed to be baptized, but he got his testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon in the MTC a couple of years later.

[Avatar4321]

I think sometimes that confirmation of inspiration to be baptized is received before a testimony of things learned line upon line.    My dh would tell you that he knew he was supposed to be baptized, but he got his testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon in the MTC a couple of years later.

 

I think that was the case with Lorenzo Snow. He recieved a witness with an experience with the Spirit after baptism.

[strappinglad]

On my mission I had an interview with A. Theodore Tuttle. I asked him a question regarding a particular gospel topic. He said an interesting thing. He said he didn't have a testimony about that topic. I assumed he was not going to pontificate about something without a testimony specific to it. Learning line upon line still.