An Open Letter To Rodney Meldrum

[USU78]

Distances are too great.

 

Except that Mexico is in North America . . . Teotihuacan and all that

[ERayR]

No, that's not the point.  There are so many prophets and apostles that support Joseph's view, but I dare say that not anyone can find a supporting statement limiting the Nephite lands to such a small geographical area as proposed by the Sorenson model.  

 

"Joseph's view".  Joseph's view seemed to change as he received additional information.

[ERayR]

Except that Mexico is in North America . . . Teotihuacan and all that

 

Got me there but I don't Sevenbak will be satisfied with stopping at Mexico

[USU78]

Got me there but I don't Sevenbak will be satisfied with stopping at Mexico

 

Me neither, but I asked the question to see for certain.

[livy111us]

No, that's not the point.  There are so many prophets and apostles that support Joseph's view, but I dare say that not anyone can find a supporting statement limiting the Nephite lands to such a small geographical area as proposed by the Sorenson model.  

 

Even Joseph Smith's own statements do not agree in Harmony when you try to make them agree with The BOM and a physical geography. There is no consistency among his own statements as it seemed to evolve as his learning increased, let alone consistency among dozens of other men who threw their hat in the ring as well.

 

If we put our focus on The Book of Mormon itself instead of the opinions of men, we realize that the *majority* of events took place in a rather small area. There are exceptions, but most of The BOM was in a limited area.

[Anijen]

If we put our focus on The Book of Mormon itself...

Could Moroni and Alma tell you more about  Nauvoo than Joseph Smith?

 

This to me is a key concept and livy111us makes an excellent point. Would we not all agree that the very best experts of where the Book of Mormon was would be from those who lived there?  

 

Would not Mormon and Moroni know more about where they lived than Marion G. Romney, or even Joseph Smith?

 

Could Moroni and Alma tell you more about  Nauvoo than Joseph Smith? I don't think so, yet this is the same type of argument many use to posit their pet geography model. Suggesting that we put our focus on the writers of the Book of Mormon is the first best primary source, only after we consider all their words first, then, and only then should we go to secondary sources such as the early church leaders such as Joseph Smith. One thing we should make sure of is to be as neutral as possible and not cherry pick only quotes that support a pet theory. One cannot ignore the sciences as well. If a past leader stated that the city of Mulek was on the moon, we should be able to verify it by science, and if the facts prove that theory wrong, then it is wrong no matter how one might twist or interpret the science. 

 

Some might say "oh the science is wrong, and so is the scientist."  Well when one has to attack the person and not the argument it should give one a clue that the argument is probably weak to begin with.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Anijen

[Bob Crockett]

By "N. America" you mean to include Mejico?

Times and Seasons articles discuss Book of Mormon proofs from Texas, New England and Ohio. Not Mexico, but I haven't completed my review. Sorenson says it is not likely Joseph Smith had any sort of focus upon MesoAmerica other than as one to fit with Texas, South America etc.

[Bob Crockett]

Could Moroni and Alma tell you more about Nauvoo than Joseph Smith?

This to me is a key concept and livy111us makes an excellent point. Would we not all agree that the very best experts of where the Book of Mormon was would be from those who lived there?

Would not Mormon and Moroni know more about where they lived than Marion G. Romney, or even Joseph Smith?

Could Moroni and Alma tell you more about Nauvoo than Joseph Smith? I don't think so, yet this is the same type of argument many use to posit their pet geography model. Suggesting that we put our focus on the writers of the Book of Mormon is the first best primary source, only after we consider all their words first, then, and only then should we go to secondary sources such as the early church leaders such as Joseph Smith. One thing we should make sure of is to be as neutral as possible and not cherry pick only quotes that support a pet theory. One cannot ignore the sciences as well. If a past leader stated that the city of Mulek was on the moon, we should be able to verify it by science, and if the facts prove that theory wrong, then it is wrong no matter how one might twist or interpret the science.

Some might say "oh the science is wrong, and so is the scientist." Well when one has to attack the person and not the argument it should give one a clue that the argument is probably weak to begin with.

I'd say in all other subjects Joseph Smith is considered the ex cathedra authority on the claims of the Book of Mormon. He lectured from it, discussed pre-Columbian life as if he were the expert, and interpreted the book. As I have said in the past, an alternate limited geographic theory is simply a means to draw the circle so tight that things like DNA, war implements and horses become less problematic.

[livy111us]

Times and Seasons articles discuss Book of Mormon proofs from Texas, New England and Ohio. Not Mexico, but I haven't completed my review. Sorenson says it is not likely Joseph Smith had any sort of focus upon MesoAmerica other than as one to fit with Texas, South America etc.

 

The June 15, 1842 he draws correlation to Mexico and The Book of Mormon. He draws more correlation between Guatemala and The Book of Mormon and does so in the July 15, Sept. 15, Oct 1, and Oct 15 1842 Times and Seasons as well. I'm sure he uses the term Mexico as well, but cannot recall off of the top of my head.

[cinepro]

Could Moroni and Alma tell you more about  Nauvoo than Joseph Smith?

 

This to me is a key concept and livy111us makes an excellent point. Would we not all agree that the very best experts of where the Book of Mormon was would be from those who lived there?  

 

Would not Mormon and Moroni know more about where they lived than Marion G. Romney, or even Joseph Smith?

 

The singular flaw (or strength) to your argument is thus:

 

 

On the evening [of] the 21st of September, A.D. 1823, while I was praying unto God and endeavoring to exercise faith in the precious promises of scripture, on a sudden a light like that of day, only of a far purer and more glorious appearance and brightness, burst into the room. Indeed the first sight was as though the house was filled with consuming fire. The appearance produced a shock that affected the whole body. In a moment a personage stood before me, surrounded with a glory yet greater than that with which I was already surrounded. This messenger proclaimed himself to be an angel of God, sent to bring the joyful tidings that the covenant which God made with ancient Israel was at hand to be fulfilled; that the preparatory work for the second coming of the Messiah was speedily to commence; that the time was at hand for the gospel in all its fulness to be preached in power unto all nations, that a people might be prepared for the millennial reign. I was informed that I was chosen to be an instrument in the hands of God to bring about some of His purposes in this glorious dispensation.

 

I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country [America] and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people, was [also] made known unto me; I was also told where were deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgment of the records of the ancient prophets that had existed on this continent. The angel appeared to me three times the same night and unfolded the same things.

 

Joseph Smith in The Wentworth Letter (emphasis added)

 

Joseph Smith is the only person who claims knowledge of the Book of Mormon peoples that comes directly from Moroni and isn't limited the "text" of the book itself.  So if Moroni is the prime authority on these matters, then what he told Joseph Smith is really, really important.

Edited July 12, 2014 by cinepro

[livy111us]

 

The singular flaw (or strength) to your argument is thus:

 

 

 

Joseph Smith is the only person who claims knowledge of the Book of Mormon peoples that comes directly from Moroni and isn't limited the "text" of the book itself.  So if Moroni is the prime authority on these matters, then what he told Joseph Smith is really, really important.

 

But then if we rely solely on JS words then we end up with a geography that doesn't line up with The Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith was shown a people, not a geography.

 

Also, I don't know who added "America" into the quote but that isn't necessarily accurate. Joseph Smith used the term "country" to mean both North and Central America. After receiving 2 books on Mesoamerica by Stephens and Catherwood from John Bernhisel, Joseph wrote him a thank you letter that said that these books "corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon; I have read the volumes with the greatest interest & pleasure & must say that of all histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct luminous & comprihensive." He equated Mesoamerica with "this country." 

[Anijen]

 

The singular flaw (or strength) to your argument is thus:

 

 

 

Joseph Smith is the only person who claims knowledge of the Book of Mormon peoples that comes directly from Moroni and isn't limited the "text" of the book itself.  So if Moroni is the prime authority on these matters, then what he told Joseph Smith is really, really important.

I agree. Joseph knows more about the Book of Mormon than anyone who has lived since. However if we are talking about geography and if Mormon was standing right next to Joseph who would know more about where Mormon lived? He also says country with "America" in brackets meaning the whole of America. I could not say if that includes South America or not. 

 

Speaking of Central America, Joseph also wrote; "corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon... of all histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct luminous & comprihensive." 

 

Joseph also wrote;

"Stephens and Catherwood's researches in Central America abundantly testify of this thing. The stupendous ruins, the elegant sculpture, and the magnificence of the ruins of Guatamala [Guatemala], and other cities, corroborate this statement, and show that a great and mighty people-men of great minds, clear intellect, bright genius, and comprehensive designs inhabited this continent. Their ruins speak of their greatness; the Book of Mormen [Mormon] unfolds their history."

 

Cinepro still you make an excellent point since the restoration of the gospel including the Book of Mormon came from the Savior to our inspired Prophet Joseph Smith.

[Calm]

I have always wondered how Moroni would have gone about showing Joseph where all this took place. Would he have bothered telling Joseph the modern names of the cities and places or just refer to them by what they were called by his people? Would he have created a map or a globe and shown Joseph the location? Would Joseph have thought to ask...he was being taught by an angel after all and may have decided Moroni would tell him what he needed to know or was so fascinated he didn't stop to think of questions till later when the chance to ask was gone.

[ERayR]

I have always wondered how Moroni would have gone about showing Joseph where all this took place. Would he have bothered telling Joseph the modern names of the cities and places or just refer to them by what they were called by his people? Would he have created a map or a globe and shown Joseph the location? Would Joseph have thought to ask...he was being taught by an angel after all and may have decided Moroni would tell him what he needed to know or was so fascinated he didn't stop to think of questions till later when the chance to ask was gone.

 

I don't think where on a map ever entered into any conversation with Moroni.  It was/is really irrelevant.

[Calm]

That is generally my thought as well. But apparently some people seem to think sharing of a location must have taken place so what are the possibilities?

[Tiki]

That is generally my thought as well. But apparently some people seem to think sharing of a location must have taken place so what are the possibilities?

 

Well, according to Dr. Sorenson, the Prophet Mormon was an idiot:

 

"After sifting through the text of the Book of Mormon in search of geographical information, as we have just done, we end up with what I call “Mormon’s Map.” The meaning of that label is that our graphic representation is, in large part, a simplified two-dimensional rendering of the body of information about geography that Mormon possessed in his mind.

We must, of course, say “simplified” and add “partial” for two reasons: (1) even Mormon could not have recalled at the time he was writing all the knowledge he had acquired about the lands he personally traversed (we ourselves “know” things geographical from our personal experiences that we never could express in words)"

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1119&index=9

 

So you see, "Mormon's Map," the basis for the LGT, was based on Mormon's mind. And according to Dr. Sorenson, the Prophet Mormon "could not have recalled at the time he was writing all the knowledge he had acquired about the lands he personally traversed."

 

So the Limited Geography Theory in Mesoamerica is based on the geographical knowledge Mormon could not have recalled at the time he was writing.

In other words, Dr. Sorenson was more accurate about Book of Mormon Geography than the Prophet Mormon and the Prophet Joseph Smith.

 

ROFL!

Edited July 12, 2014 by Tiki

[livy111us]

Tiki, You still have not addressed the information I shared which causes the entire heartland theory to collapse. Still waiting....

[Tiki]

Tiki, You still have not addressed the information I shared which causes the entire heartland theory to collapse. Still waiting....

No problem...I had to leave/work. Are you referring to the video?

Thanks.

[livy111us]

No problem...I had to leave/work. Are you referring to the video?

Thanks.

 

No. I am referring to the fact that in order for The BOM to fit into a Great Lakes setting, it must be between the east and west sea. You stated that it is Lake Ontario and a combination of Lake Huron and Michigan. This eliminates Zarahemla being in Iowa (because it would be south of the land of Nephi, which is the southernmost point of the Lamanites) and Manti existing in Missouri (also a Nephite city which would place it south of the Lamanites). It also eliminates the Mississippi as the river Sidon, places most of The Book of Mormon in Canada, not the US, and puts most of the BOM events and cities in the Narrow neck (which is now bigger than the land northward and the land southward), and means that Cumorah is South-East of the Nephites. It makes it impossible for The BOM to fit that area.

[Tiki]

No. I am referring to the fact that in order for The BOM to fit into a Great Lakes setting, it must be between the east and west sea. You stated that it is Lake Ontario and a combination of Lake Huron and Michigan. This eliminates Zarahemla being in Iowa (because it would be south of the land of Nephi, which is the southernmost point of the Lamanites) and Manti existing in Missouri (also a Nephite city which would place it south of the Lamanites). It also eliminates the Mississippi as the river Sidon, places most of The Book of Mormon in Canada, not the US, and puts most of the BOM events and cities in the Narrow neck (which is now bigger than the land northward and the land southward), and means that Cumorah is South-East of the Nephites. It makes it impossible for The BOM to fit that area.

Thanks. It's a long video.

 

But you're misunderstanding my view of the scriptures. I don't think it entirely agrees with the Heartland Model. I'm not placing everything within the Great Lakes area. I'm including the entire Eastern US.

 

The Land of Nephi is the southern portion of the eastern United States, east of and some portions west of the Mississippi River (stopping at the Plains since that's not a likely place to live vs being in the east).

The Land of Zarahemla would be in the lands north of the Land of Nephi - essentially north of t he Ohio River valley starting at the "Sea East" or Lake Ontario, at the head of the Ohio - Allegheny River (the largest headwater flowing into the Ohio River) then going east to west, to the Missisippi Valley north of the Ohio River or that general area likely including portions of the Missouri River valley (Land of Manti or Hannibal, MO, included) then northward to the head of the Mississippi River which head could be the Wisconsin River in Wisconsin or the where the Mississippi River begins in Minnesota.

 

The Lands Northward would include the Great Lakes. This is what is being described in Alma 22:27-34.

 

Mormon is describing the Lands, at that time, as they were inhabited by the Nephites vs the Lands inhabited by the Lamanites.

He starts describing the Eastern portion in the North (North East), that the Lamanites inhabited the land "which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west," - this is Lake Ontario and the Lamanites inhabited it from "the east to the west" - likely its southern shore.

 

Mormon continues describing this North East area: "and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore"

 

The narrow strip of wilderness is the land between Lake Ontario and Lake Huron (sea west), then round about the southern borders of Lake Erie.

 

Mormon continues:  "and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, (the northern borders of the wilderness touching or by the south-east,  south and south-west portions of the land of Zarahemla)

 

Mormon: through the borders of Manti, (Missouri), then by the head of the river Sidon (where the Wisconsin River begins or Mississippi River begins), running from the east towards the west (Mormon is describing east to west)—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.

 

in Verse 28, he describes where the Lamanites were located, starting in the west

• wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; - this would be in the south - or southern Mississipi Valley area
• yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, - this would be in Illinois on the western shores of Lake Michigan where the Lamanites encroached on the Nephites - as they did in the east. see Alma 50.
• and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore. - this would nearer to the Gulf of Mexico, where Nephi's ship landed.

 

Verse 29: And also there were many Lamanites on the east by the seashore, whither the Nephites had driven them.

This could be the Atlantic Ocean or Lake Ontario.

 

And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites;  - think of it as a big arc or semi-circle - with the Nephites hemmed in on 3 sides.

 

ALMA 50 - Captain Moroni chases out the Lamanites from the North East and North West

7 And it came to pass that Moroni caused that his armies should go forth into the east wilderness; yea, and they went forth and drove all the Lamanites who were in the east wilderness into their own lands, which were south of the land of Zarahemla.

8 And the land of Nephi did run in a straight course from the east sea to the west. - this would be the Atlantic Ocean to the west (not to a west sea - but to the west). The "east sea" is not the "sea east" which is Lake Ontario. See Helaman 3:8.

Then Captain Moroni built cities there, city of Moroni, Lehi,  by the "sea east" etc. - so it no longer a wilderness and to protect the narrow strip of wilderness near from which he had chased out the Lamanites.

9 "And it came to pass that when Moroni had driven all the Lamanites out of the east wilderness, which was north of the lands of their own possessions, he caused that the inhabitants who were in the land of Zarahemla and in the land round about should go forth into the east wilderness, even to the borders by the seashore, and possess the land."

Then in the North West:

 

11 And thus he cut off all the strongholds of the Lamanites in the east wilderness, yea, and also on the west, fortifying the line between the Nephites and the Lamanites, between the land of Zarahemla and the land of Nephi, from the west sea, running by the head of the river Sidon— this is Lake Michigan near where the Mississippi River begins or is navigable.

 

So basically the North east and southern boundaries of the Land of Zarahemla is defined by the Ohio and the western boundary by the Mississippi River valleys - the East and West being reinforced by Captain Moroni. The Land of Nephi (inhabited by Lamanites) is south of there or the southern portion of the eastern US.

 

I know Livy. You don't like it.

 

See the attached image.

[cinepro]

That is generally my thought as well. But apparently some people seem to think sharing of a location must have taken place so what are the possibilities?

 

Hmmm...how about a vision?  Or would that just be too far-fetched for a discussion about something as grounded and rock solid as Book of Mormon geography?

[Calm]

I have no doubt he had visions but how did he (assuming he did) know where the place he was seeing was located on the globe?

I can watch a movie about a place in the Far East that shows me exactly what people look like, where they live, the food they eat. I wouldn't be surprised if in a vision he could smell and taste as well as see and hear as we do today. I can't tell from the modern skyline whether it is Seoul or Tokyo, if I just saw it as street level and not a panoramic view and wasn't familiar with the different building styles or if it was all generic modern I probably couldn't tell either.

I've been watching a lot of Asian drama lately and I am slowly learning to see the differences in the countries and the culture, but just watching is a lot slower than when I read up on something like honorific titles.

But unless I look up the name of the place after the show is over and see it on a map or a 3d representation, I wouldn't know where it was save for somewhere in the East. And if I heard the name as they spoke it, I might not be able to spell it well enough that it came up.

And if I had seen the show before becoming aware of certain indicators that generally located it though exposure in education and other shows, i might just be able to only place it in Asia due to the people's faces.

Edited July 13, 2014 by calmoriah

[livy111us]

Thanks. It's a long video.

 

But you're misunderstanding my view of the scriptures. I don't think it entirely agrees with the Heartland Model. I'm not placing everything within the Great Lakes area. I'm including the entire Eastern US.

 

The Land of Nephi is the southern portion of the eastern United States, east of and some portions west of the Mississippi River (stopping at the Plains since that's not a likely place to live vs being in the east).

The Land of Zarahemla would be in the lands north of the Land of Nephi - essentially north of t he Ohio River valley starting at the "Sea East" or Lake Ontario, at the head of the Ohio - Allegheny River (the largest headwater flowing into the Ohio River) then going east to west, to the Missisippi Valley north of the Ohio River or that general area likely including portions of the Missouri River valley (Land of Manti or Hannibal, MO, included) then northward to the head of the Mississippi River which head could be the Wisconsin River in Wisconsin or the where the Mississippi River begins in Minnesota.

 

The Lands Northward would include the Great Lakes. This is what is being described in Alma 22:27-34.

 

Mormon is describing the Lands, at that time, as they were inhabited by the Nephites vs the Lands inhabited by the Lamanites.

He starts describing the Eastern portion in the North (North East), that the Lamanites inhabited the land "which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west," - this is Lake Ontario and the Lamanites inhabited it from "the east to the west" - likely its southern shore.

 

Mormon continues describing this North East area: "and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore"

 

The narrow strip of wilderness is the land between Lake Ontario and Lake Huron (sea west), then round about the southern borders of Lake Erie.

 

Mormon continues:  "and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, (the northern borders of the wilderness touching or by the south-east,  south and south-west portions of the land of Zarahemla)

 

Mormon: through the borders of Manti, (Missouri), then by the head of the river Sidon (where the Wisconsin River begins or Mississippi River begins), running from the east towards the west (Mormon is describing east to west)—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.

 

in Verse 28, he describes where the Lamanites were located, starting in the west

• wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; - this would be in the south - or southern Mississipi Valley area
• yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, - this would be in Illinois on the western shores of Lake Michigan where the Lamanites encroached on the Nephites - as they did in the east. see Alma 50.
• and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore. - this would nearer to the Gulf of Mexico, where Nephi's ship landed.

 

Verse 29: And also there were many Lamanites on the east by the seashore, whither the Nephites had driven them.

This could be the Atlantic Ocean or Lake Ontario.

 

And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites;  - think of it as a big arc or semi-circle - with the Nephites hemmed in on 3 sides.

 

ALMA 50 - Captain Moroni chases out the Lamanites from the North East and North West

7 And it came to pass that Moroni caused that his armies should go forth into the east wilderness; yea, and they went forth and drove all the Lamanites who were in the east wilderness into their own lands, which were south of the land of Zarahemla.

8 And the land of Nephi did run in a straight course from the east sea to the west. - this would be the Atlantic Ocean to the west (not to a west sea - but to the west). The "east sea" is not the "sea east" which is Lake Ontario. See Helaman 3:8.

Then Captain Moroni built cities there, city of Moroni, Lehi,  by the "sea east" etc. - so it no longer a wilderness and to protect the narrow strip of wilderness near from which he had chased out the Lamanites.

9 "And it came to pass that when Moroni had driven all the Lamanites out of the east wilderness, which was north of the lands of their own possessions, he caused that the inhabitants who were in the land of Zarahemla and in the land round about should go forth into the east wilderness, even to the borders by the seashore, and possess the land."

Then in the North West:

 

11 And thus he cut off all the strongholds of the Lamanites in the east wilderness, yea, and also on the west, fortifying the line between the Nephites and the Lamanites, between the land of Zarahemla and the land of Nephi, from the west sea, running by the head of the river Sidon— this is Lake Michigan near where the Mississippi River begins or is navigable.

 

So basically the North east and southern boundaries of the Land of Zarahemla is defined by the Ohio and the western boundary by the Mississippi River valleys - the East and West being reinforced by Captain Moroni. The Land of Nephi (inhabited by Lamanites) is south of there or the southern portion of the eastern US.

 

I know Livy. You don't like it.

 

See the attached image.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain your geography in greater detail. It didn't answer my questions but that's ok, I'll drop it.

I'm glad to see that you are doing your own research and not just buying into what Meldrum is selling. 

[ERayR]

Hmmm...how about a vision?  Or would that just be too far-fetched for a discussion about something as grounded and rock solid as Book of Mormon geography?

 

How about irrelevant to the message .

[ksfisher]

I have no doubt he had visions but how did he (assuming he did) know where the place he was seeing was located on the globe?

I can watch a movie about a place in the Far East that shows me exactly what people look like, where they live, the food they eat. I wouldn't be surprised if in a vision he could smell and taste as well as see and hear as we do today. I can't tell from the modern skyline whether it is Seoul or Tokyo, if I just saw it as street level and not a panoramic view and wasn't familiar with the different building styles or if it was all generic modern I probably couldn't tell either.

I've been watching a lot of Asian drama lately and I am slowly learning to see the differences in the countries and the culture, but just watching is a lot slower than when I read up on something like honorific titles.

But unless I look up the name of the place after the show is over and see it on a map or a 3d representation, I wouldn't know where it was save for somewhere in the East. And if I heard the name as they spoke it, I might not be able to spell it well enough that it came up.

And if I had seen the show before becoming aware of certain indicators that generally located it though exposure in education and other shows, i might just be able to only place it in Asia due to the people's faces.

I think that this is exactly what Joseph Smith was dealing with. He had seen the Book of Mormon people in vision, but had not been shown where on a modern map that the vision was taking place. Brandt Gardner talks about this, but I can't recall if it's in one of his books or a paper or presentation. Edited July 13, 2014 by ksfisher