An Open Letter To Rodney Meldrum

[livy111us]

Really? Can you show me a single meso LGT proponent that agrees with Joseph's and the Church History's teachings on upstate New York Nephite history, mound builder peoples, plains of the Nephites, etc... ?? If they believed that they wouldn't be advocating a limited geography in Central America.

The Meso proponents can't have their cake and eat it too.

Even though the heartland proponents also do it, the finger-pointing from both sides is kind of out-of-control.

Edit to add: and there's more than just two sides pointing fingers... here I am doing it as well... :-(

 

 

John Sorenson, Mark Wright, Brant Gardner. I haven't spoken with John Clark about this but doubt he doesn't agree with this. On this board I know Anijen, myself and many others also accept this view. Generally, it is the heartlanders or Mesoamericanists who haven't looked into it long enough to realize that Joseph Smith placed the BOM all over the western hemisphere. I can only think of one scholar who believes that JS changed his views to a Mesoamerican setting and completely disregarded a North American setting for the BOM and that is Garth Norman

Edited July 21, 2014 by livy111us

[ERayR]

John Sorenson, Mark Wright, Brant Gardner. I haven't spoken with John Clark about this but doubt he doesn't agree with this. On this board I know Anijen, myself and many others also accept this view. Generally, it is the heartlanders or Mesoamericanists who haven't looked into it long enough to realize that Joseph Smith placed the BOM all over the western hemisphere. I can only think of one scholar who believes that JS changed his views to a Mesoamerican setting and completely disregarded a North American setting for the BOM and that is Garth Norman

 

I think this might be worth repeating at this point. 

And so it goes many becoming quite exercised and combative over an issue that is really irrelevant to the purpose and message of the Book of Mormon.

[Sevenbak]

John Sorenson, Mark Wright, Brant Gardner. I haven't spoken with John Clark about this but doubt he doesn't agree with this. On this board I know Anijen, myself and many others also accept this view. Generally, it is the heartlanders or Mesoamericanists who haven't looked into it long enough to realize that Joseph Smith placed the BOM all over the western hemisphere. I can only think of one scholar who believes that JS changed his views to a Mesoamerican setting and completely disregarded a North American setting for the BOM and that is Garth Norman

Thanks, I'll have to ask him.  Garth is a good friend of mine, and worked with me extensively on my MFA thesis research. We've had a couple discussions about his geography theories and his books, but I've never heard him say he discounts Joseph's view.  

But I'm confused as to your point.  In your reply in #337, you said "One example is the shift from North American comments to Mesoamerican ones when he came across Stephens and Catherwoods book."

Hence, you can surely see my confusion.  If the Meso proponents accept Joseph's teachings as being inclusive and not changing opinions, why the verbiage of "shift" from N. America to Meso?  That's the entire point I'm making, that he didn't change his position.  But what I'm hearing from you is that he DID and that he DIDN'T.  

Again, I'll check with Garth, but I don't know of any Meso only proponents that have a position that you're stating.

 

Again, for clarification purposes, let's look at what Joseph actually said in his Stephens and Catherwoods statement:  Note, I'm including the first part as well, as most Meso LGT folks snip it out.

 

If men, in their researches into the history of this country, in noticing the mounds, fortifications, statues, architecture, implements of war, of husbandry, and ornaments of silver, brass, &c.-were to examine the Book of Mormon, their conjectures would be removed, and their opinions altered; uncertainty and doubt would be changed into certainty and facts; and they would find that those things that they are anxiously prying into were matters of history, unfolded in that book. They would find their conjectures were more than realized-that a great and a mighty people had inhabited this continent-that the arts sciences and religion, had prevailed to a very great extent, and that there was as great and mighty cities on this continent as on the continent of Asia. Babylon, Ninevah, nor any of the ruins of the Levant could boast of more perfect sculpture, better architectural designs, and more imperishable ruins, than what are found on this continent. Stephens and Catherwood's researches in Central America abundantly testify of this thing. The stupendous ruins, the elegant sculpture, and the magnificence of the ruins of Guatamala [Guatemala], and other cities, corroborate this statement, and show that a great and mighty people-men of great minds, clear intellect, bright genius, and comprehensive designs inhabited this continent. Their ruins speak of their greatness; the Book of Mormen [Mormon] unfolds their history.-ED.

[Sevenbak]

And to add further grease to the spoke of this discussion, Stephens and Catherwood also wrote about the extensive mounds, forts, ruins, etc, in N. America, as well as their research in Central America.  So even if Joseph had not said what he did about the Moundbuilders in his statement about St. and Catherwood, the bottom line is that in Joseph endorsing the book, Joseph endorsed the WHOLE book.

"In our own country, the opening of forests and the discovery of tumuli or mounds and fortifications, extending in ranges from the lakes through the valleys of the Ohio and Mississippi, mummies in a cave in Kentucky, the inscription on the rock at Dighton, supposed to be in Phaanician characters, and the ruins of walls and a great city in Arkansas and Wisconsin Territory, had suggested wild and wandering ideas in regard to the first peopling of this country, and the strong belief that powerful and populous nations had occupied it and had passed away, whose histories are entirely unknown. The same evidences continue in Texas, and in Mexico they assume a still more definite form."  

 

Incidents of Travel… - Stephens

[livy111us]

Sevenbank, my post in #337 was in response to your post which said "I can see nowhere where Joseph ever changed his view while embracing new discoveries.  Please correct me if I'm mistaken."

 

That is when I stated that there was a shift from North America to Mesoamerica and stated that it was because of the discoveries outlined in Stephens and Catherwoods book. I think you may be reading into it that I believed he abandoned past beliefs, which is not what I was saying at all, only that as he discovered new information he accepted those new cultures as BOM cultures. I guess I could have been a bit more clear on that one but I was assuming you remembered our past conversations on this issue. No worries if you don't. He never gave up a North American setting as he gave several statements *after* his comments which place The Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica (there are also accounts of him placing it both North America and Mesoamerica in the same article) all the way up to his death.

[Anijen]

I agree with livy111us that as Joseph learned more not just about the country at his time, but as well as the ruins in the Yucatan his views did become more expanded. This does not take away what he had previously said when he wrote to Emma. However, this does not mean Josephs statements were revelation and that is where most of my disagreements are with the Heartlanders.

 

According to staunch Heartlanders Josephs statements about inside our country were revelation, but his statements about outside the U.S. were not. To Wayne May and Rod Meldrum Joseph's own opinions have been raised to the level of being Gods word.

 

The criticism of Sorenson IMO is not merited, for example he cites experts as well as himself, qualified scholars. Juxtapose that with Wayne May where he employs a man who received his degree from a diploma mill or the fake artifacts he has to use to support his theory.

 

Ask yourself who of these two people are more credible?

Edited July 22, 2014 by Anijen

[ERayR]

I agree with livy111us that as Joseph learned more not just about the country at his time, but as well as the ruins in the Yucatan his views did become more expanded. This does not take away what he had previously said when he wrote to Emma. However, this does not mean Josephs statements were revelation and that is where most of my disagreements are with the Heartlanders.

 

According to staunch Heartlanders Josephs statements about inside our country were revelation, but his statements about outside the U.S. were not. To Wayne May and Rod Meldrum Joseph's own opinions have been raised to the level of being Gods word.

 

The criticism of Sorenson IMO is not merited, for example he cites experts as well as himself, qualified scholars. Juxtapose that with Wayne May where he employs a man who received his degree from a diploma mill or the fake artifacts he has to use to support his theory.

 

Ask yourself who of these two people are more credible?

 

Have you ever started out a study of something with one opinion and as you learned more your original opinion was changed.  Were you to be held to your first opinion it might appear that your opinions were contradictory.  I am of the opinion that Joseph was no different.

[Bob Crockett]

I agree with livy111us that as Joseph learned more not just about the country at his time, but as well as the ruins in the Yucatan his views did become more expanded. This does not take away what he had previously said when he wrote to Emma. However, this does not mean Josephs statements were revelation and that is where most of my disagreements are with the Heartlanders.

According to staunch Heartlanders Josephs statements about inside our country were revelation, but his statements about outside the U.S. were not. To Wayne May and Rod Meldrum Joseph's own opinions have been raised to the level of being Gods word.

The criticism of Sorenson IMO is not merited, for example he cites experts as well as himself, qualified

Oh please. Do name them.

[Milenial]

I thank God, and Rod Meldrum for his work.  I believe he was sent to help me with my mission.  I have a Bachelor's degree in Family History; and had devoted 30 years to much family history; but I had left that part of my  life behind in my pursuit with other things - I thought!  There was that line that no one could research; and it was practically forbidden to me because of family politics.  I had no idea that I was a descendent of Native Americans, despite some interesting things that happened to my grandmother.  I did not know anything about "Jewish" Native Americans; or that my AB- negative blood suggested "Jewish".  None of it made any sense until Rod Meldrum's work came along.  . . . I now know that I descend from the Shickellamy family (Delaware Indians), and some others.  I descend from Native Americans who took a pledge to lay down their arms when they joined the Moravian Church.  I, once again, am VERY involved with my family history; and am feeling grateful !!

[livy111us]

I hate to burst your bubble but there is very little of what Rod Meldrum says that is actually true. 

[ERayR]

I thank God, and Rod Meldrum for his work.  I believe he was sent to help me with my mission.  I have a Bachelor's degree in Family History; and had devoted 30 years to much family history; but I had left that part of my  life behind in my pursuit with other things - I thought!  There was that line that no one could research; and it was practically forbidden to me because of family politics.  I had no idea that I was a descendent of Native Americans, despite some interesting things that happened to my grandmother.  I did not know anything about "Jewish" Native Americans; or that my AB- negative blood suggested "Jewish".  None of it made any sense until Rod Meldrum's work came along.  . . . I now know that I descend from the Shickellamy family (Delaware Indians), and some others.  I descend from Native Americans who took a pledge to lay down their arms when they joined the Moravian Church.  I, once again, am VERY involved with my family history; and am feeling grateful !!

 

I am happy for you that, because of Rod Meldrum, you are once again involved and productive in your family history.  This illustrates the adage that if one looks hard enough they can find some good in almost everything.

[Anijen]

Oh please. Do name them.

I am sure your going to defend these men as angelic, but I invite all to google their names and decide for themselves.

 

Questionable men Wayne May has employed to support his heartland theory, who have no credible credentials are;

• Frank Joseph also uses the name Frank Collins
• J.J. Hurtak received his degrees from known diploma mills 

Fake Artifacts both May and Meldrum have used to buoy up their heartland theory;

• Bat Creek Stone
• Davenport Stone
• Los Lunas Stone
• Michigan Relics

[livy111us]

Here is a picture of Frank Collins, whom Wayne May works with on his material. He's since changed his name to Frank Joseph. I think people like this would fall into the category of "past experience which does not qualify them to be an expert in archaeology"

Edited July 22, 2014 by livy111us

[VideoGameJunkie]

That's an insane picture. Who dresses like that?

[Anijen]

That's an insane picture. Who dresses like that?

He has other issues as well. here

 

Fake degrees of J.J. Hurtek read here, Hurtek is seemingly so accomplished he makes Nibley look like a kindergartner.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Anijen

[livy111us]

That's an insane picture. Who dresses like that?

 

He was head of a neo-Nazi group here in America and was an outspoken critic of blacks, Jews and other groups. It was his daily dress not just a one time bad dress robe choice.

[Bob Crockett]

 

I am sure your going to defend these men as angelic, but I invite all to google their names and decide for themselves.

 

Questionable men Wayne May has employed to support his heartland theory, who have no credible credentials are;

• Frank Joseph also uses the name Frank Collins
• J.J. Hurtak received his degrees from known diploma mills 

Fake Artifacts both May and Meldrum have used to buoy up their heartland theory;

• Bat Creek Stone
• Davenport Stone
• Los Lunas Stone
• Michigan Relics

 

And Dr. Sorenson's experts and artifacts are . ....?

[ERayR]

Here is a picture of Frank Collins, whom Wayne May works with on his material. He's since changed his name to Frank Joseph. I think people like this would fall into the category of "past experience which does not qualify them to be an expert in archaeology"

 

This is one of Wayne May's associates?  Insert here something about fruits and knowing.

[livy111us]

And Dr. Sorenson's experts and artifacts are . ....?

 

Not Nazi's or those who lie about having degrees and paid $80 for a mass-produced printed degree. Sorenson wins

[Anijen]

And Dr. Sorenson's experts and artifacts are . ....?

I will let livy111us last post answer that question.

 

 

For someone who claims that you are neutral and have no stake in either theory, you sure do spend a lot of your time criticizing Sorenson and hardly save any of that impartiality for the heartlanders. In fact you ask for names of those who support Wayne May and Meldrum and when I deliver them to you, instead of saying something like; 

 

"hmm that's interesting"

 

You switchback to the condescending post of;

 

"And Dr. Sorenson's experts and artifacts are . ....?"

 

I do not see you as no fight in the issues, but more of a closeted Meldrum guy and a very public anti-Sorenson. I wonder what has Sorenson done to you to attract so much animosity.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Anijen

[Sevenbak]

Sevenbank, my post in #337 was in response to your post which said "I can see nowhere where Joseph ever changed his view while embracing new discoveries.  Please correct me if I'm mistaken."

 

That is when I stated that there was a shift from North America to Mesoamerica and stated that it was because of the discoveries outlined in Stephens and Catherwoods book. I think you may be reading into it that I believed he abandoned past beliefs, which is not what I was saying at all, only that as he discovered new information he accepted those new cultures as BOM cultures. I guess I could have been a bit more clear on that one but I was assuming you remembered our past conversations on this issue. No worries if you don't. He never gave up a North American setting as he gave several statements *after* his comments which place The Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica (there are also accounts of him placing it both North America and Mesoamerica in the same article) all the way up to his death.

Livy, my comment you you in post 336 was in reference to this:  "There is no consistency among his own statements as it seemed to evolve as his learning increased."  This is my point.  I'm saying Joseph didn't shift his view, and he was indeed consistant.  This was not the first time he embraced Central America as part of the Nephite lands, and after, he continued to embrace N. America as also part of them.  This is not a shift, and there are no inconsistencies.  He embraced truth where he recognized it, but didn't change his view. His writings, both personal and church published, show that.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Sevenbak

[Sevenbak]

It seems my point has been made, by several people; that it is easier to discount Joseph's words as mere shifting opinion, than to discount the new accepted theories.  And both LGT camps are doing it.  

In addition, it now appears we've hit Godwin's Law in this thread.  I guess it was only a matter of time.  

 

Milenial, I'm glad Meldrum helped you.  Indeed, he embraces a lot of truth that is now discounted in modern times by some, but be careful, he's also got some pretty funky ideas as well, ideas that are his own.

 

But so do the Meso only folks.   

 

For me, I will always err on the side of those that had the most communion from the heavens, even though they are often downplayed by some here as mere opinions.  Anything else for me is too close to the theories and philosophies of men.  And while I do believe they have their place, it's not necessarily the best arbiter of truth.   Jsoeph Smith was, as has been stated by prophets ancient and modes alike, a great seer, with exceptional gifts that we can not even comprehend.  His descriptions of the Nephites and their culture goes much farther that is had in Book of Mormon.

 

I used to have a tagline snip quote from Joseph that expressed that feeling better that I could ever say.  Here it is in it's entirely.  For me, this is the bottom line as to why I can never give as much credence to any modern theories, despite how hard the "scholars" make their arguments.  Joseph knew so much more than he shared.  And that small portion which he did share, holds more weight with me than anything else.  I know I seem to be in the minority here, but there ya go.

 

"It is my meditation all the day, and more than my meat and drink, to know how I shall make the Saints of God comprehend the visions that roll like an overflowing surge before my mind.

"Oh! how I would delight to bring before you things which you never thought of! But poverty and the cares of the world prevent. But I am glad I have the privilege of communicating to you some things which, if grasped closely, will be a help to you when earthquakes bellow, the clouds gather, the lightnings flash, and the storms are ready to burst upon you like peals of thunder. Lay hold of these things and let not your knees or joints tremble, nor your hearts faint; and then what can earthquakes, wars and tornadoes do? Nothing." (Joseph Smith, HC v. 5, ch. 19)

[ERayR]

I have a problem with the idea that some have that once someone has made a statement that statement must be forever a part of all future beliefs of that person.  If that were the case one could never change their mind and learning and growth would cease.  If Joseph Smith was anything at all he was not stagnate.  He was firm in his principles but did not shy from change as he developed.  He often compared himself to a rough stone rolling.  Come on can't we give him credit for having the ability to learn and change?

[livy111us]

Livy, my comment you you in post 336 was in reference to this:  "There is no consistency among his own statements as it seemed to evolve as his learning increased."  This is my point.  I'm saying Joseph didn't shift his view, and he was indeed consistant.  This was not the first time he embraced Central America as part of the Nephite lands, and after, he continued to embrace N. America as also part of them.  This is not a shift, and there are no inconsistencies.  He embraced truth where he recognized it, but didn't change his view. His writings, both personal and church published, show that.

 

We're saying the same thing but in different ways. 

[Bob Crockett]

I will let livy111us last post answer that question.

 

 

For someone who claims that you are neutral and have no stake in either theory, you sure do spend a lot of your time criticizing Sorenson and hardly save any of that impartiality for the heartlanders. In fact you ask for names of those who support Wayne May and Meldrum and when I deliver them to you, instead of saying something like; 

 

"hmm that's interesting"

 

You switchback to the condescending post of;

 

"And Dr. Sorenson's experts and artifacts are . ....?"

 

I do not see you as no fight in the issues, but more of a closeted Meldrum guy and a very public anti-Sorenson. I wonder what has Sorenson done to you to attract so much animosity.

Remember, I'm a real person.  I have a profession and a reuptation.  It stings to be charged with uncharitable misconduct by an anonymous poster.    

 

There is no animostiy against Dr. Sorenson.  I think his books mislead people into thinking there's a demonstrable geography from the text of the Book of Mormon, which sets him up for the likes of Michael Coe. My criticism is of the text, and not of the person, although I do think he is not a qualified geographer nor a qualified archaeologist (although I concede he has a lot more professional training in the latter than do I; I only hire them and critique their reports.) 

 

And, again, no, I don't support Meldrum.  I've never read his books.   (I did put a stop to a fireside Porter was about to give in my stake.)  I have no particular view of any geography because I can read what has been said in conference about such things.  My interests in the matter tilt in favor of traditional support for the opinions of Joseph Smith and those who followed him; in particular, Anthony Ivins and Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr.  I consider any LGT theory to be akin to advocating praying to a mother in heaven.

 

I issued a challenge here to give me the names of experts whom Dr. Sorenson has cited who support his main theses about a geogrpahic setting for the Book of Mormon.  Are there any?  For instance, are there any geographers or cartograpthers, non-LDS or LDS?  Are there any LDS university professors he's cited?  Non-LDS professors?

 

I did not ask for the names of experts who support Meldrum.  I already suspect that they are bogus.  You misread my post.

 

I spend no time criticizing Meldrum's theories because (1) I haven't read them, (2) what little I know of them, they seem racist, (3) they are definitely unsupportable from the text of the Book of Mormon; Columbus landing in the Caribbean is proof enough for me; and (4) you and others are doing a credible job and his defenders here are frivolous.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Bob Crockett