Anijen Posted July 5, 2014 Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) You haven't and can't make your point. You'll not be able to point to any "Prophet or Apostle" who agrees with the Sorenson model.I know of two, one has since past away and the other is still going on strong. My problem is, when I spoke with both of them it was on a personal basis and I know you do not accept that because you are looking to a publication of some sort. So in this since you are correct. Having said that neither can the hemispheric followers do the same. Please do not spit out the old quotes that you time and time again try to validate your opinion (and that is what it is, simple opinion). The Brethren/Church have said that their is no known setting for the Book of Mormon. Edited July 5, 2014 by Anijen
livy111us Posted July 5, 2014 Author Posted July 5, 2014 You haven't and can't make your point. You'll not be able to point to any "Prophet or Apostle" who agrees with the Sorenson model. Other than the HGT, I don't think any Prophet or Apostle will agree with every facet of someones model, on the general geographical area. As you know, even within Mesoamerica there are many differing theories which weren't even comprised in JS day. They rarely brought in details to form the kind of maps that Sorenson and others have today. So, no, I don't think that you will find one who preached a geographical map that wasn't even figured out for over a century after their time, but you will find countless of them who placed The BOM in areas of the Western Hemisphere. This is what I was referring to and thought I was pretty clear about it.
livy111us Posted July 5, 2014 Author Posted July 5, 2014 Because it would be a waste of your time. Tiki, I'm still anxiously awaiting a response to my question I have asked several times. Where do you believe the narrow neck of land to be?
livy111us Posted July 5, 2014 Author Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) double post Edited July 5, 2014 by livy111us
ERayR Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 and you can answer my question, how many times have you changed your mind after participating in a online discussion? Never? Aw now you are moving the goal posts. You first asked how many times have you changed your mind after participating in a online discussion Debate? Now you change it to discussion and that is a different question. But honestly I don't think you know what a discussion is.
ERayR Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 You haven't and can't make your point. You'll not be able to point to any "Prophet or Apostle" who agrees with the Sorenson model. Why is it significant whether or not any "Prophet or Apostle" agrees with the Sorenson model? They are working from the same data (provided they even consider it) that you or I have and any opinion would be just that, an opinion based on personal interpretation of the data. What is it with you guys that you must be continually trying to appeal to authority? Don't you have cognitive ability of your own? 3
ERayR Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Other than the HGT, I don't think any Prophet or Apostle will agree with every facet of someones model, on the general geographical area. I don't think you will find any Prophet or Apostle will agree with every facet of the HGT either.
Tiki Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Tiki, I'm still anxiously awaiting a response to my question I have asked several times. Where do you believe the narrow neck of land to be?The Detroit area.
livy111us Posted July 6, 2014 Author Posted July 6, 2014 The Detroit area. Thank you. Is it between Lake Sinclair and Lake Erie or Lake Sinclair and Huron?
livy111us Posted July 6, 2014 Author Posted July 6, 2014 Ah, yes. St Clair. That's what I get for looking at a map, getting distracted and coming back to write the name. I'm assuming you believe that Zarahemla is across from Nauvoo and Manti near Huntsville, MO. Also that Erie is the East sea and Huron is the west sea, the Mississippi is Sidon. Are there any other geographical identifiers with your theory?
Tiki Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 No. Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are the same lake. So technically, there are four Great Lakes. Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are at the same elevation, as this link to a graphic shows:http://www.people.iup.edu/kpatrick/Great%20Lakes/Great%20Lakes%20Profile.jpg This coincides with Helaman 3:8 about many of the Nephites moving to the north and populating the area among the four lakes mentioned: 8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east. Yes, I believe the River Sidon to be a major river so the Mississippi would be the best candidate and thus Zarahemla would be situated west of it, if not right next to it.Manti near a location where some rivers meet, the Missouri, Ohio, Illinois and Mississippi Rivers? Why not? The State of Missouri is west of the Mississippi River, as this verse indicates: Alma 43:3232 And the remainder he concealed in the west valley, on the west of the river Sidon, and so down into the borders of the land Manti. "Down" would mean into a river valley, just as going "down" is indicated when traveling to Zarahemla.The west valley could be the Missouri river which flows easterly into the Mississippi.
livy111us Posted July 6, 2014 Author Posted July 6, 2014 No. Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are the same lake. So technically, there are four Great Lakes. Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are at the same elevation, as this link to a graphic shows:http://www.people.iup.edu/kpatrick/Great%20Lakes/Great%20Lakes%20Profile.jpg This coincides with Helaman 3:8 about many of the Nephites moving to the north and populating the area among the four lakes mentioned: 8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east. Yes, I believe the River Sidon to be a major river so the Mississippi would be the best candidate and thus Zarahemla would be situated west of it, if not right next to it.Manti near a location where some rivers meet, the Missouri, Ohio, Illinois and Mississippi Rivers? Why not? The State of Missouri is west of the Mississippi River, as this verse indicates: Alma 43:3232 And the remainder he concealed in the west valley, on the west of the river Sidon, and so down into the borders of the land Manti. "Down" would mean into a river valley, just as going "down" is indicated when traveling to Zarahemla.The west valley could be the Missouri river which flows easterly into the Mississippi. So is Superior the sea north, Ontario the east sea, Michigan the west sea, and Huron and Erie the sea south? You don't believe Manti is near Huntsville then? From looking at a map it looks like you place it around the St. Louis area, correct? I ask because most North American theorist believe this is where Joseph Smith placed the city Manti.
Bob Crockett Posted July 6, 2014 Posted July 6, 2014 Why is it significant whether or not any "Prophet or Apostle" agrees with the Sorenson model? They are working from the same data (provided they even consider it) that you or I have and any opinion would be just that, an opinion based on personal interpretation of the data. What is it with you guys that you must be continually trying to appeal to authority? Don't you have cognitive ability of your own?Your statement compares to saying that surely Moses doesn't have a leg up on establishing the location of Goshen. I'd say "you guys" ought to give a Sacrament meeting talk and push for a full blown Sorenson model and claim you have unnamed Apostles to back you up, or start hosting monthly firesides on the topic, and see where it gets you. And "you guys" are mistaken if you think I advocate a hemispheric model or some other LGT. I don't. I don't give a hoot. I simply point out that any sort of geographic speculation is about the same thing as praying to a mother in heaven.
Pahoran Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 No. Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are the same lake. So technically, there are four Great Lakes. Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are at the same elevation, as this link to a graphic shows:http://www.people.iup.edu/kpatrick/Great%20Lakes/Great%20Lakes%20Profile.jpg This coincides with Helaman 3:8 about many of the Nephites moving to the north and populating the area among the four lakes mentioned: 8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east. Yes, I believe the River Sidon to be a major river so the Mississippi would be the best candidate and thus Zarahemla would be situated west of it, if not right next to it.Manti near a location where some rivers meet, the Missouri, Ohio, Illinois and Mississippi Rivers? Why not? The State of Missouri is west of the Mississippi River, as this verse indicates: Alma 43:3232 And the remainder he concealed in the west valley, on the west of the river Sidon, and so down into the borders of the land Manti. "Down" would mean into a river valley, just as going "down" is indicated when traveling to Zarahemla.The west valley could be the Missouri river which flows easterly into the Mississippi. One teensy problem: the Sidon flows from south to north. We know this because (1) it rises in the south wilderness, near the border between traditional Nephite and Lamanite lands, (2) flows through Nephite lands towards the sea, and (3) its banks are invariably described as "east" and "west." What direction does the Mississippi flow? Regards,Pahoran 1
Bob Crockett Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 I don't see a problem. North is south and east is west in the Sorensen model. I guess they can't see the Little Dipper in MesoAmerica.
livy111us Posted July 7, 2014 Author Posted July 7, 2014 I don't see a problem. North is south and east is west in the Sorensen model. I guess they can't see the Little Dipper in MesoAmerica. Too bad ancient Mesoamericans looked at it the same way that Sorenson and BOM describe. 4
ERayR Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 I don't see a problem. North is south and east is west in the Sorensen model. I guess they can't see the Little Dipper in MesoAmerica. It might help if you understood the argument before being critical. Just a thought. 1
Tiki Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) So is Superior the sea north, Ontario the east sea, Michigan the west sea, and Huron and Erie the sea south?No. Michigan and Huron are the same lake. Look at a map and the graphic I provided earlier. It's the sea west.You don't believe Manti is near Huntsville then? From looking at a map it looks like you place it around the St. Louis area, correct? I ask because most North American theorist believe this is where Joseph Smith placed the city Manti.I didn't say that. If you're referring to the Land of Manti, then it could be a land whose boundaries are defined by rivers. If you're referring to the City of Manti then I'll take the opinion given by early members of the Church who rubbed shoulders with the Prophet Joseph Smith vs an LGT theory who's scribes call him a liar. Edited July 7, 2014 by Tiki
Tiki Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 One teensy problem: the Sidon flows from south to north. We know this because (1) it rises in the south wilderness, near the border between traditional Nephite and Lamanite lands, (2) flows through Nephite lands towards the sea, and (3) its banks are invariably described as "east" and "west." What direction does the Mississippi flow? Regards,PahoranThat's been removed from the Index in the latest edition of the scriptures:https://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/sidon-river?lang=eng&letter=s
livy111us Posted July 7, 2014 Author Posted July 7, 2014 No. Michigan and Huron are the same lake. Look at a map and the graphic I provided earlier. It's the sea west.I didn't say that. If you're referring to the Land of Manti, then it could be a land whose boundaries are defined by rivers. If you're referring to the City of Manti then I'll take the opinion given by early members of the Church who rubbed shoulders with the Prophet Joseph Smith vs an LGT theory who's scribes call him a liar. Ok, so Michigan and Huron are the west sea, then what is the east sea? North sea? South sea?Yes, I was referring to the city of Manti.
Tiki Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 It might help if you understood the argument before being critical. Just a thought.It might be helpful to readers here, that the LGT theory is critical of the Prophet Joseph Smith:"What may startle some about this situation is that most of what Joseph Smith said or implied about geography indicates that he did not understand or was ambiguous about the fact, as it turns out, that Mesoamerica was the particular setting for Nephite history."http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1099&index=19&keyword=Geography%20indicates
Tiki Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 Ok, so Michigan and Huron are the west sea, then what is the east sea? North sea? South sea?Yes, I was referring to the city of Manti.It's difficult. Superior on the north, Erie the south, Ontario the east, Michigan/Huron the west.
Bob Crockett Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 It might help if you understood the argument before being critical. Just a thought.You really think I don't understand the argument? I am far from the only person to think it frivolous.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 7, 2014 Posted July 7, 2014 addressing the quality of scholarship and recognising the potential harm that may arise when those who see it as a spiritual witness then learn that it is not what it claims (we have unfortunately heard reports from family/ward members of Meldrumites who have discovered his claims do not match the science who have then completely lost their faith due to the way it is pushed as proof, both scientific and spiritual, of the BoM, Joseph Smith's calling and the Church) is not the same as accusing people of not believing or being devoted to the Church. I know of no one who disagrees with Meldrum's findings that has stated he is not a sincere believer......................................... D'accord.
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