An Open Letter To Rodney Meldrum

[Tiki]

I didn't serve a mission... and where I wear my lioncloth is none of your business

 

I agree! 

[teddyaware]

Well... from Rochester NY, to San Antonio, Texas is 1648 miles... at 30 miles a day, that would take... about 55 days of walking.

 

I suppose that isn't completely impossible... however I don't think it's likely.

Why is it that the people on this board never think to factor in the space alien angle? I've been watching some cool programing on History Channel 2 of late, and there are a lot of 'experts' on these shows who say the space aliens are most definitely responsible for all sorts of unexplainable ancient engineering feats and phenomena -- from the Pyramids of Giza, to all those massive, goofy-looking heads on Easter Island.

 

So why couldn't Moroni have been down in Guatemala (did they call it Guatemala back then?), or some other Mesoamerican or South American locale, and when the time came that he needed to schlep that heap of gold plates, the humongous sword of Laban, that ginormous breastplate and the Urim and Thummim to present-day Manchester, New York -- so he could bury all that stuff there -- why couldn't he have hitched a ride on one of those keeno ancient alien spacecraft (back then they called them chariots of fire) and cut an airborne beeline to Western New York lickity split? This helps to explain a lot.

 

If I remember correctly, I even heard that a very long time ago these same ancient space aliens came to  earth and put these weird, vibrating monoliths in various places to help the apes evolve into humans. Go out and get the book 'Chariots of the Gods' (or is it Chariots of Fire?) by Erich von Däniken. You'll learn plenty of 'rad' things and it will help you to figure out how many perplexing ancient mysteries could have actually taken place.

 

Heck, with the ancient space alien connection in mind, do you realize the ancient aboriginal North Americans could've been the original 'snowbirds,' flying south en mass down to Mesoamerica before the miseries of winter hit? It pays to befriend space aliens. 

Edited July 3, 2014 by teddyaware

[Tiki]

Why is it that the people on this board never think to factor in the space alien angle? I've been watching some cool programing on History Channel 2 of late, and there are a lot of 'experts' on these shows who say the space aliens are most definitely responsible for all sorts of unexplainable ancient engineering feats and phenomena -- from the Pyramids of Giza, to all those massive, goofy-looking heads on Easter Island.

So why couldn't Moroni have been down in Guatemala (did they call it Guatemala back then?), or some other Mesoamerican or South American local, and when the time came that he needed to schlep that heap of gold plates, the humongous sword of Laban, that ginormous breastplate and the Urim and Thummim to present-day Manchester, New York -- so he could bury all that stuff there -- why couldn't he have hitched a ride on one of those keeno ancient alien spacecraft (back then they called them chariots of fire) and cut an airborne beeline to Western New York lickity split?

This helps to explain a lot. If I remember correctly, I even heard that a very long time ago these same ancient space aliens came to earth and put these weird, vibrating monoliths in various places to help the apes evolve into humans. Go out and get the book 'Chariots of the Gods' (or is it Chariots of Fire?) by Erich von Däniken. You'll learn plenty of 'rad' things and it will help you to figure out how many perplexing ancient mysteries could have actually taken place.

Heck, with the ancient space alien connection in mind, do you realize the ancient aboriginal North Americans could've been the original 'snowbirds,' flying south en mass down to Mesoamerica before the miseries of winter hit? It pays to befriend space aliens.

This has already been addressed by the Excuse-Making LDS Scribes at fairmormon:

"The story of the cave full of plates inside the Hill Cumorah in New York is often given as evidence that it is, indeed, the hill where Mormon hid the plates. Yorgason quotes one version of the story from Brigham Young and alludes to six others collected by Paul T. Smith. Unfortunately, none of the accounts is firsthand. The New York Hill Cumorah is a moraine laid down anciently by a glacier in motion. It is comprised of gravel and earth. Geologically, it is impossible for the hill to have a cave, and all those who have gone in search of the cave have come back empty-handed. If, therefore, the story attributed to Oliver Cowdery (by others) is true, then the visits to the cave perhaps represent visions, perhaps of some far distant hill, not physical events."

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology/Hill_Cumorah

So you see, the Hill Cumorah in New York is mere pile of gravel which cannot contain a cave.

And all who searched for it have come back empty-handed.

So the Lord of Miracles, who isn't able to make a cave in a pile of gravel, or to protect Nephite records from treasure seekers, gave a vision to Oliver Cowdery of the cave in Mesoamerica.

This is why fairmormon is a pile of garbage.

 

Clean up the attitude or you will be taken out of the thread. There are members of FairMormon on this board.

[livy111us]

So where is your narrow neck of land then? If the Lamanites lived in southern, more warmer climate, then your narrow neck would have to be somewhere in the middle of a land-locked area.

Edited July 2, 2014 by livy111us

[Tiki]

So where is your narrow neck of land then? If the Lamanites lived in southern, more warmer climate, then your narrow neck would have to be somewhere in the middle of a land-locked area.

Read the text. The narrow neck of land was not in the "middle." That's a false premise.

Helaman 1:24-26 talks of Coriantumr leading a Nephite Army into the middle EDIT "center" of the land of the Nephites - the Land of Zarahemla and attacking the city of Zarahemla.

Zarahemla was separate from the land Bountiful both being south of the land desolation. There is no indication that Zarahemla was south of the land Bountiful.

But Zarahemla was north of the Land of Nephi.

Helaman 3 talks of many Nephites going northward to the land of desolation. Vs 4-6.

Alma 63:5 talks of Hagoth and others building ships by the narrow neck of land on the borders of Bountiful and the land of desolation.

And which way did those ships go? They went north. Read verses 6,7,8 of Alma 63 about the direction the other ships went. North.

The narrow neck of land was located in the southern portion of the land of desolation and north of the land Bountiful.

It was not in "the middle" between Zarahemla and the Land of Nephi.

So what is wrong with this map? It shows a narrow neck of land in the north:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bc/images/03990_000_history-maps-overview.jpg

Edited July 3, 2014 by Tiki

[livy111us]

You didn't answer my question, where do you place the narrow neck of land?

[Pahoran]

From Levi Hancock's journal:

"Next morning we started on our journey in good spirits. On the way to Illinois River where we camped on the west side. In the morning many went to see the big mound about a mile below the crossing. I did not go on it but saw some bones that were brought back with a broken arrow. They were laid down by our camp. Joseph Smith addressing himself to Sylvester Smith and said, "This is what I told you and now I want to tell you that you may know what I meant. This land was called the land of desolation and Onedages was the King and a good man was he. There in that mound did he bury his dead and did not dig holes as the people do now, but they brought their dirt and covered them until you see they have raised it to be about one hundred feet high. The last man buried was Zelf or Telf."

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/LHancock.html

What Is the Significance of Zelph in the Study of Book of Mormon Geography?

"If the history of the church were to be revised today using modern historical standards, readers would be informed that Joseph Smith wrote nothing about the discovery of Zelph, and that the account of uncovering the skeleton in Pike County is based on the diaries of seven members of Zion's Camp, some of which were written long after the event took place. We would be assured that the members of Zion's Camp dug up a skeleton near the Illinois River in early June 1834. Equally sure is that Joseph Smith made statements about the deceased person and his historical setting. We would learn that it is unclear which statements attributed to him derived from his vision, as opposed to being implied or surmised either by him or by others. Nothing in the diaries suggests that the mound itself was discovered by revelation."

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1398&index=11&keyword=What%20is%20the%20significance%20of%20zelph

Sorry, Ladies and Gentlemen.

But the LGT clearly states Joseph Smith was a liar (including his associates) or your favorite Christ-like synonym. I know that sounds harsh, but that's how I see it.

The LGT is situated strictly within a 500 x 200 mile area within Mesoamerica and any thing, any statement, any concept, any portion from the History of the Church which contradicts with it or is outside of that area - has been addressed by F.A.R.M.S. as incorrect.

This is what you learn from F.A.R.M.S. and the advocates of the LGT. As the quotes I copied above, show.

 

 

That's all very interesting Tiki, but what has it got to do with the Book of Mormon?

 

Where in the Book of Mormon can I read about King Onedages and Zelf or Telf?

 

When did those guys live?

 

What Book of Mormon prophet mentions them?

 

Regards,

Pahoran

[Sevenbak]

That's all very interesting Tiki, but what has it got to do with the Book of Mormon?

 

Where in the Book of Mormon can I read about King Onedages and Zelf or Telf?

 

When did those guys live?

 

What Book of Mormon prophet mentions them?

 

Regards,

Pahoran

 

Words of Mormon 1:5

[livy111us]

Personally, I think if he was such a great Prophet to have been known from the East Sea to the Rocky Mountains, an area bigger than The BOM events themselves (according to most people) then he probably would have gotten at least an honorable mention in the BOM somewhere. But we have nothing about him. I believe it was Ainsworth who said:

 

 Zelph served under a great prophet named Onandagus and this prophet was known from the eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains. During Mormon's day, the Lamanites did not serve under a prophet of any kind. They served under the very wicked King Aaron, (see Mormon 2:9 and Mormon 6:2).

Onandagus was a righteous prophet of God, while the King and commander of the Lamanites, King Aaron was a wicked and brutal cannibal, (see Moroni 9:7-10).

Not only were the Nephite and Lamanite armies devoid of any men of God, but Mormon says of them, â??And there never had been so great wickedness among all the children of Lehi, nor even among all the house of Israel, according to the words of the Lord, as among this people.
 

 the account indicates that Zelph was killed in the last great struggle between the Nephites and Lamanites. The battle of Cumorah was not the last great struggle between the Nephites and the Lamanites. The battle of Cumorah took place in AD 385.

The struggle in which Mormon was killed, took place in AD 399, some fourteen years later, (see Moroni 9:24 and Mormon 8:1- . Mormon had been chased by the Lamanites for fourteen years after the battle of Cumorah and assumedly he had traveled many miles from Cumorah during those fourteen years.

Not only did the Lamanites and Nephites continue to have military struggles after Cumorah, culminating in the death of Mormon, but the Lamanites continued to chase Moroni for an additional 21 years. During those years, the Lamanites put to death every Nephite who would not deny the Christ. (see Moroni 1:1-2)

[Sevenbak]

You could always start a protest and "ask" the brethren to remove Zelph from the curriculum.   There might even be some here that would help write 5 or 6 discussions to that end.    ;-)

[Pahoran]

Words of Mormon 1:5

 

Thank you Seven.  That tells us that there was a lot more going on than the Book of Mormon records, but that doesn't help us place Zelph (Zelf, Telf) or Onandagus (Onedages) in any Book of Mormon context, does it?

 

The point is that whoever Z. and O. were, Joseph didn't get around to telling us when they lived, or who they were connected with.  For all we know, they could have lived hundreds of years after Moroni's time.

 

In which case, what do they tell us about Book of Mormon geography?  Precisely zilch.

 

Regards,

Pahoran

[Sevenbak]

I disagree.  To me, "the last great struggle" could easily mean the last war, not necessarily the last battle;  the one in which they constantly fled and fought for four years gathering to Cumorah.  And fortunately, Joseph's letter to Emma from the Zion's Camp march also makes apparent reference to the Zelph account.  If he wasn't referring to the Zelph incident in this letter, what else could he have been writing about?
 
“The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed.”

[Robert F. Smith]

Utterly ridiculous. No wonder the Brethren have counseled us to stay away from Book of Mormon geographic speculation. It leads to hard feelings, accusations of unfaithfulness on all sides and confusion. Both Dr. Smith and Meldrum need to abandon the field.

I agree with you Bob.

I don't.  Bob Crockett is wrong to suggest that the Brethren want "us to stay away from Book of Mormon geographic speculation," and there is no reason why such speculation should lead "to hard feelings, accusations of unfaithfulness on all sides and confusion."  Serious discussions of biblical geography and archeology have gone on for many years and have provided improved understanding of the Bible, and there is no reason why the Book of Mormon cannot be examined in much the same way (as B. H. Roberts insisted it should in the Improvement Era, 14:667-668).

 

That is not to say that immature discussions of nearly any subject cannot lead to invective and silly name-calling both within and outside the faith.  We see some of that on this Board often enough that the mods have to step in and referee. There is no reason at all for either Rod Meldrum of Greg Smith "to abandon the field."  That is nonsense, and is akin to saying that all forensic debate is inherently dangerous and must be avoided.  I know Rod, and he is a nice guy.  He is a member of my HP Group, and I like him.  He knows that I don't share his BofM geography views, but there is never a cross word between us.  I love it when he  teaches an HP Group lesson.  He does it very well.

 

What should be made clear is that our salvation does not depend on which theory (if any) of BofM geography we adhere to.

 

Sorry for my belated comment.  I only just ran across this thread.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[Sevenbak]

Except the warfare was in the winter, during the non-farming months.

So the references to fields of grain being trodden and destroyed by the hosts of armies means what???

[Anijen]

Just an FYI, the church puts little importance on the Zelph incident. The arrowhead the church had kept all these years turned out to be an arrow head from the Utah area of the Rocky Mountains not from Russel's mound #8 where the Zelph incident occurred. When I contacted the church history department they emailed me back and told me all this and referred me to Kenneth W. Godfreys paper; What Is the Significance of Zelph in the Study of Book of Mormon Geography?

 

Hope that helps.

[Tiki]

So the references to fields of grain being trodden and destroyed by the hosts of armies means what???

Oh, the LGT claims the Nephites and Lamanites only fought after the harvest was in:

"When the seasons for cultivation and warring in Mesoamerica before the time of Columbus are studied, an equally sharp division is seen. (The schedule is essentially the same anywhere in tropical America, in fact.) The preparation and cultivation of farmlands and other domestic chores went on from about March through October, which constituted the rainy season. Wars began after the harvest and mainly went on during the hot, dry months, November through February. Of course, camping in the field was sensible at this time, and movement was least hampered by the swollen streams or boggy ground common in the other part of the year."

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1110&index=49&keyword=Seasonality%20of%20Warfare%20in%20the%20Book%20of%20mormon

It's considered more accurate than the Book of Mormon because the Nephites lived among swollen streams, soggy bottomland and monkeys.

Hey daddy! I just finished throwing the hay in the loft and filling the cellar with squash and corn! Can I now try out my new macuahuitl on a Nephite?

No son! The Nephites haven't yet finished with their harvest!

Edited July 3, 2014 by Tiki

[Tiki]

Just an FYI, the church puts little importance on the Zelph incident. The arrowhead the church had kept all these years turned out to be an arrow head from the Utah area of the Rocky Mountains not from Russel's mound #8 where the Zelph incident occurred. When I contacted the church history department they emailed me back and told me all this and referred me to Kenneth W. Godfreys paper; What Is the Significance of Zelph in the Study of Book of Mormon Geography?

 

Hope that helps.

I thought Utah was too cold for ancient man to have lived in it. Are you sure the arrowhead wasn't from Mesoamerica, the breadbasket of the Americas and the navel of the world? It's also nice to know that Godfrey was correct that the seven men who recorded the incident in their journals were considered delusional.

Do us a favor and ask the Church History Department if the name of the Brother of Jared "Mahonri Moriancumer" is accurate, as that was recorded in only one journal.

[Tiki]

That's all very interesting Tiki, but what has it got to do with the Book of Mormon?

 

Where in the Book of Mormon can I read about King Onedages and Zelf or Telf?

 

When did those guys live?

 

What Book of Mormon prophet mentions them?

 

Regards,

Pahoran

Have you considered Helaman 3:12-15? You know, Lamanites who became Nephites and moved northward. Are you not yet a student of the Book of Mormon?

And since Joseph Smith was quoted to have said the location was the land of Desolation, have you considered that King Onedagas was a Jaredite, since the Nephites had no kings after Mosiah?

And the Nephites may adopted the practice of burying their dead in the same mounds?

 

But in reply tell us where in the Book of Mormon it mentions that:

• Nephi took sailing lessons?
• Nephi imported lumber for his ship?
• Lehi took a job and/or sold his property and land in Jerusalem to "fund" said lumber and sailing lessons?

 

"Nephi needed a crew, and he needed to acquire the skills to train them. It takes years to learn and practice the skills needed to control a sailing ship at sea. United States Merchant Marine officer Frank Linehan, an experienced transoceanic sailboat skipper, notes, "Even with the inspiration of the Lord, it was simply impossible for Nephi to have sailed to the New World without training."

 

"If good shipbuilding timber never grew in Oman, then Nephi must have used, like the Arab shipwrights, imported materials from India and the islands thereabout."

 

"While we suggest that the things Nephi needed to build his ship were available at the time at Khor Rori, could Nephi have afforded the imported goods? There would have been a number of funding options for Lehi: selling his camels*, exchanging his services as a scribe and merchant, or perhaps even arranging to have his property sold in Jerusalem."

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1414&index=5

 

 

I'm surprised the LGT didn't claim Nephi also took water-skiing lessons, so that Nephi could have learned to jump the shark!

http://t4toby.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/fonz.jpg Remember Fonzie jumping the Shark?

 

* Dr. Sorenson claims the Lehites had no animals in their journey from Jerusalem. The LGT Scribes can't even keep track of their own fables.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Tiki

[livy111us]

Tiki, 

People really take you seriously when you make outlandish claims, ignore questions asked and mock others. Really.

[cinepro]

So the references to fields of grain being trodden and destroyed by the hosts of armies means what???

 

Alma 3

1. [2] Now many women and children had been slain with the sword, and also many of their flocks and their herds; and also many of their fields of grain were destroyed, for they were trodden down by the hosts of men.

[Tiki]

You didn't answer my question, where do you place the narrow neck of land?

 

The same narrow neck of land that the Prophet Mormon lost in battle. After losing he went southward to the land of Cumorah to the Hill of Cumorah.

 

Centuries earlier, even Captain Moroni knew of its strategic importance:

Alma 52:9

9 And he also sent orders unto him that he should fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward, lest the Lamanites should obtain that point and should have power to harass them on every side.

 

Tell us, do you know why Fort Detroit was important during the French-Indian Wars and the War of 1812?

Do you know what "Detroit" means in English?

 

After losing the narrow passage, it was over for the Nephites, so they fled south into the Land of Cumorah

Mormon could no longer stay in the land northward - Alma 22:33 & 34.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Tiki

[ksfisher]

Tiki, 

People really take you seriously when you make outlandish claims, ignore questions asked and mock others. Really.

 

 I particularly enjoy the mocking!!!

[ksfisher]

 

 

Do you know what "Detroit" means in English?

 

 

Detroit doesn't mean anything in English, it's French for a narrow neck of land separating Nephites from Lamanites.

[livy111us]

The same narrow neck of land that the Prophet Mormon lost in battle. After losing he went southward to the land of Cumorah to the Hill of Cumorah.

 

Centuries earlier, even Captain Moroni knew of its strategic importance:

Alma 52:9

9 And he also sent orders unto him that he should fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward, lest the Lamanites should obtain that point and should have power to harass them on every side.

 

Tell us, do you know why Fort Detroit was important during the French-Indian Wars and the War of 1812?

Do you know what "Detroit" means in English?

 

After losing the narrow passage, it was over for the Nephites, so they fled south into the Land of Cumorah

Mormon could no longer stay in the land northward - Alma 22:33 & 34.

 

Wow, still not a straight answer. Let me ask this in a different way. If you were to pull out a map today and point to where you believe the narrow neck of land is, what part of the map would your finger be touching?

[Anijen]

I thought Utah was too cold for ancient man to have lived in it. Are you sure the arrowhead wasn't from Mesoamerica, the breadbasket of the Americas and the navel of the world?

Ancient man lived pretty much everywhere on this earth. I guess Antarctica could boast of no ancient man.

 

 

 It's also nice to know that Godfrey was correct that the seven men who recorded the incident in their journals were considered delusional.

 

Where does he use the word "delusional?"    Oh that's right, he doesn't.

 

 

 

Do us a favor and ask the Church History Department if the name of the Brother of Jared "Mahonri Moriancumer" is accurate, as that was recorded in only one journal.

 

Snarkiness does not add to the discussion and makes others take you less seriously. Just saying. Besides you email them and ask them yourself.