An Open Letter To Rodney Meldrum

[teddyaware]

Bob Crockett's emphasis was on scholastic qualification. That's what I addressed.

I was trying to take a page from our sardonic friend Nehor.

[omni]

You mean . . . in between running for his life, founding a handful of cities, running essentially a state-within-a-state, directing international missionary efforts, running for president, and dealing with scores and scores of lawsuits and criminal charges . . . he's supposed to keep track of every nonsensical, nonscriptural theory that comes up in seminary classes? Like that?

Believing the events described in the BoM took place primarily in the United States is a "nonsensical, nonscriptural theory"? I bet you there are more prophets who would disagree with your assessment then would agree.

[ERayR]

Joseph didn't live in a vacuum. Don't you think if he had a different belief he would have put an end to the errant belief which has persisted to this day?

 

I think Joseph was curious like many of us but I do not think he considered the geography as being all that important. 

[ERayR]

You mean . . . in between running for his life, founding a handful of cities, running essentially a state-within-a-state, directing international missionary efforts, running for president, and dealing with scores and scores of lawsuits and criminal charges . . . he's supposed to keep track of every nonsensical, nonscriptural theory that comes up in seminary classes?  Like that?

 

Exactly, in that environment I suspect geography didn't seem all that important.

[Tiki]

First off, are you Jake Hilton?  If so, may I recommend not emulating the criminal Kent Hovind in your seminar lectures and YouTube videos.

 

Anyway, are you suggesting that the Prophet Joseph Smith was always correct in anything and everything he ever spoke/wrote?  This appears to be the position you are advocating but I wanted to clarify.

No, I am not Jake Hilton. I'm a just a member of the Church who has read the LGT nonsense published at the Maxwell Institute which carried over, I assume, from F.A.R.M.S. And yes, I don't believe Joseph Smith was a liar and made up stuff to aggravate a century later members who disagree with him.

[Tiki]

From Levi Hancock's journal:

"Next morning we started on our journey in good spirits. On the way to Illinois River where we camped on the west side. In the morning many went to see the big mound about a mile below the crossing. I did not go on it but saw some bones that were brought back with a broken arrow. They were laid down by our camp. Joseph Smith addressing himself to Sylvester Smith and said, "This is what I told you and now I want to tell you that you may know what I meant. This land was called the land of desolation and Onedages was the King and a good man was he. There in that mound did he bury his dead and did not dig holes as the people do now, but they brought their dirt and covered them until you see they have raised it to be about one hundred feet high. The last man buried was Zelf or Telf."

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/LHancock.html

What Is the Significance of Zelph in the Study of Book of Mormon Geography?

"If the history of the church were to be revised today using modern historical standards, readers would be informed that Joseph Smith wrote nothing about the discovery of Zelph, and that the account of uncovering the skeleton in Pike County is based on the diaries of seven members of Zion's Camp, some of which were written long after the event took place. We would be assured that the members of Zion's Camp dug up a skeleton near the Illinois River in early June 1834. Equally sure is that Joseph Smith made statements about the deceased person and his historical setting. We would learn that it is unclear which statements attributed to him derived from his vision, as opposed to being implied or surmised either by him or by others. Nothing in the diaries suggests that the mound itself was discovered by revelation."

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1398&index=11&keyword=What%20is%20the%20significance%20of%20zelph

Sorry, Ladies and Gentlemen.

But the LGT clearly states Joseph Smith was a liar (including his associates) or your favorite Christ-like synonym. I know that sounds harsh, but that's how I see it.

The LGT is situated strictly within a 500 x 200 mile area within Mesoamerica and any thing, any statement, any concept, any portion from the History of the Church which contradicts with it or is outside of that area - has been addressed by F.A.R.M.S. as incorrect.

This is what you learn from F.A.R.M.S. and the advocates of the LGT. As the quotes I copied above, show.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Tiki

[USU78]

Exactly, in that environment I suspect geography didn't seem all that important.

Which omni doesn't seem to get at all

[Bart Burk]

It seems to me that the people in the pews are more likely to believe in Rodney Meldrum than whatever scientiests and anthropologists at BYU are saying.  The popular sentiment is riding with Meldrum.  I suspect that is because Meldrum is teaching what the rank and file believed in the 60s and 70s.  For example:

 

http://thefamily.com/tag/mounds/

[Bob Crockett]

Exactly, in that environment I suspect geography didn't seem all that important.

There were many articles in the Times and Seasons and the Millennial Star about Book of Mormon geography.   There were many when Joseph Smith was the editor.  They were often labeled "proofs of the Book of Mormon," and discussed finds in New England, Tennessee, Ohio, as well as Stephens and Catherwood's finds, which itself covered several articles.   So it is really incorrect to say that Book of Mormon geography was not important to the early saints.  It was very important.

 

The Joseph Smith Papers project has identified an official "History", "co-edited by Joseph Smith", declaring the New York Cumorah as the site of the Nephine and Jaredite battles.   This is an article originally authored by Oliver Cowdery for the Messenger & Advocate but which was incorporated in the the Church's official history.  It certainly was important then.

 

I am not sure why Joseph Smith's position on Book of Mormon Geography would be worth more than the paper it is printed upon.

 

Yet, most serious attempts at a Book of Mormon geography attempt to enlist Joseph Smith to support a particular poit of view. If his opinion weren't important I doubt that LGT theorists would reference Joseph Smith's beliefs.  Dr. Sorenson himself does it in Codex. The following is text from a paper of mine in production.  (Again, I am agnostic as to which model is correct, the hemispheric, Mesoamerican LGT or other LGT; I am more interested in critiquing the methodology of LGT theorists and analyzing church support for particular theories.)

 

Sorenson states that Joseph Smith “became convinced in the last years of his life” that the Nephite lands were in Mesoamerica.  Sorenson says that Joseph Smith told “several people in his last years” that Moroni left southern Mexico with plates in hand to journey to New York to “bury the plates in a hill near Palmyra.”[1]  Sorenson’s most significant proof is an anonymous article in the 1 October 1842 Times and Seasons[2] (the official organ of the Church) which discussed John Lloyd Stephens’ work, Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatán (1841).[3]

 

President Martin van Buren commissioned New York lawyer Stephens to undertake an exploration of Central American ruins.[4]  Accompanying him was his traveling companion, Frederick Catherwood, who served as the expedition’s artist.[5]  At the time of Stephens’ exploration, the Central American ruins were well-known to western scholars.[6]   Stephens, however, had a long history as a best-selling author and his 1841 work about his visit to Central American proved to be immensely popular.[7]  Stephens supposed the ruins of Central America were somehow linked to the mound-builders of North America, finds of supposed Phoenician origin in Massachusetts and other finds in Ohio, Mississippi, Arkansas and elsewhere.[8]  He recounted theories that these people were descendants of Jews, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks, and Scythians of “ancient times.”[9]

 

Nonetheless, the enigma of sophisticated building structures in the presence of “savages” perplexed Stephens.  “We sat down on the very edge of the wall [of ruins in Copan], and strove in vain to penetrate the mystery by which were surrounded.”[10]  “We asked the Indians who made them, and their dull answer was ‘Quien sabe?’”[11]  Stephens did not necessarily tread new ground in proposing the sophistication of Native Americans, as the immense aboriginal structures of Mexico were reported by Cortez, but Stephens added to academic and popular knowledge his surveys of ruins at Chiapas and Yucatan.[12]

 

Sorenson’s Codex describes this 1 October 1842 article as “concerning Smith and his cohorts’ reading of John Lloyd Stephens book Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatán (1841).”[13]  Codex quotes the 1 October 1842 Times and Seasons article’s statement that the “city of Zarahemla . . . stood upon this land,” namely, Central America.[14]  In a cite routinely used by Mesoamerican Book of Mormon theorists, the Times & Seasons article concludes with:  “It will not be a bad plan to compare Mr. Stephens’ ruined cities with those in the Book of Mormon: light cleaves to light, and facts are supported by facts.  The truth injures no one . . . .”[15]   Likewise, David A. Palmer, a chemical engineer who authored In Search of Cumorah (1984) cites this Times and Seasons article as the only source for the proposition that the “prophet Joseph Smith has stated very clearly that the approach to Book of Mormon geography must be primarily of an intellectual nature.”[16]

 

Although this 1 October 1842 anonymous article is the single most significant statement about a Mesoamerican connection to be found in any official Church organ,[17] questions remain as to Joseph Smith’s connection with the article.   Joseph Smith was, actually, in hiding in the latter part of 1842 due to repeated efforts to arrest him in connection with the assassination attempt on former Missouri governor Lilburn Boggs.  B.H. Roberts reports that upon hearing that Illinois officers were in Nauvoo, “it had been decided by President Smith and his friends, that the best thing for himself and Rockwell to do, in the then excited state of public opinion, was to keep out of the way for a season; so that the officers upon their return to Nauvoo were unable to find them.”[18]  On September 20, 1842, Illinois Governor Thomas Carlin issued a proclamation describing the legal basis for the issuance of arrest warrants for Joseph Smith and Porter Rockwell.[19]  It further does not appear from the chronology of Joseph Smith’s life for the September and October 1842 period that he had anything to do with the periodical.[20]

 

However, as Matthew Roper points out, Joseph Smith was editor as of the early part of 1842.[21]  In February 15, 1842, the Times and Seasons reported.  “The Editorial chair will be filled by our esteemed brother, President Joseph Smith, assisted by Elder John Taylor . . .”[22]  As well, on March 16, 1842, Joseph Smith announced in the same edition of the paper that “[t]his paper commences my editorial career . . . .”[23]  Roper points to a March 1842 tombstone advertisement showing that Joseph Smith was the editor.[24]   The tombstone announcement for the 1 October 1842 paper says that Joseph Smith was editor and publisher.[25]  Roper reports that “[t]he Prophet continued to serve as editor until mid-November, 1842[26] and, indeed, Joseph Smith again resigned on November 15, 1842 although the announcement is strangely dated 1841.[27]  Roper further asserts that a wordprint analysis yields the conclusion that Joseph Smith authored the 1 October 1842 article, but perhaps it is not unreasonable to doubt the science behind a wordprint analysis without more details as to its techniques and controls.[28]

 

Sorenson has also relied upon a 15 September 1842 Times and Seasons article.   “So Joseph Smith was surprised, when in 1842 in Nauvoo, he and his associates read Stephens’s book.  A [15 September 1842] comment in the Times and Season, the newspaper that Smith edited, clearly reflects that fact . . . .”[29]  Yet, there is nothing in the 15 September 1842 article to show that Joseph Smith was surprised then by Stephens’s work.   There could have been no surprise as the Church had published two earlier articles[30] as well as in the British Millennial Star[31] extolling Stephens’s work as evidence of Book of Mormon evidences.  

 

These Church periodical descriptions of Stephens’s work, however, cannot be read as has been suggested, that Mesoamerica is the exclusive situs of Book of Mormon events.  The Millennial Star and the Times and Seasons describe Book of Mormon proofs found in far-flung Native American sites in North America.  One article stated that “proof of the truth of the Book of Mormon” can be found in ruins and artifacts “scattered over a vast extent of North and South America” as “proof of the truth of the Book of Mormon.”[32]  Other Times and Seasons articles identified Book of Mormon proofs of artifacts found in Texas[33], Michigan[34] and Pennsylvania.[35]

 

Joseph Smith, nonetheless was enthusiastic about Stephens’s finds in a letter written to John Bernhisel on 16 November 1841.[36]  The several Times and Seasons articles enthusiastic about Stephens’ book, obviously made in the context of Book of Mormon proofs,[37] show general acceptance among members of the Church in Nauvoo that the Book of Mormon account was somewhat vindicated by archaeology.

 

Soren’s Codex cites a second proof in support of the view that Joseph Smith became convinced of a limited geographical setting.  Sorenson relies upon Mosiah Lyman Hancock’s “Life Story,” wherein Hancock – as a ten year old – recounts Joseph Smith’s admonition to go to the land of the Nephites, or Mexico.[38] Actually, the cited statement from Hancock’s recollection as a ten-year-old (or more likely much younger, as he was born April 9, 1834, slightly more than ten years before the martyrdom of Joseph Smith) is absurdly detailed, as he recounts Joseph Smith prophesying about the pioneers’ trek through Iowa to “the valley of the Great Salt Lake,” where the “United Order” will be practiced “even [as] the City of Enoch.”[39]  As to Sorenson’s assertion that little Hancock was told to go to Mexico, where the Nephites lost their power, Hancock says that he saw Joseph Smith “[p]lacing his finger on the map, I think about where Snowflake, Arizona is situated, or it could have been Mexico. . . .”[40]  Sorenson’s interpretation may be incorrect, as Hancock’s reference to Mexico appears to refer to the Saints’ colonization of the northern Mexican states to avoid prosecution for polygamy.[41]  The full text of Hancock’s recollection of Joseph Smith is:

 

[block]I went and got my map for him.  “Now,” he said, “I will show you the travels of this people.”   He then showed our travels thru Iowa, and said, “Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake!  You will build cities to the North and to the South, and to the East and to the West; and you will become a great and wealthy people in that land.  But, the United States will not receive you with the laws which God desires you to live, and you will have to go where the Nephites lost their power.  They worked in the United Order for 166 years, and the Saints have got to become proficient in the laws of God before they can ever meet the Lord Jesus Christ, or even the city of Enoch.”  He said we will not travel the shape of the horse shoe for there well will await the action of the government.  Placing his finger on the map, I should think about where Snowflake, Arizona is situated, or it could have been Mexico, he said, “The government will not receive you with the laws that God designed you to live, and those who are desirous to live the laws of God will have to go South.[/block][42]

 

In the text that follows this paragraph, Hancock recalls Joseph Smith prophesying about two different political parties, the “United Order,” the Democrats and the Republicans, who will go to war, which will result in the creation of the “Independent American Party.”  The United States will fight in foreign lands where “one half of the U.S. army will give up” until “the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the American army . . . .”[43]  Hancock’s concluding entry is in the spring of 1865, where he was living in southern Utah.  It thus seems very probable that Hancock’s recollection as a ten-year-old was contaminated by events which occurred long after Joseph Smith’s death; in any event, it is too detailed a recollection to be reasonable.  Certainly, such a detailed prophecy combining reference to foreign wars, two different political parties, the Salt Lake Valley and the emigration to Mexico would have been much better documented than from the recollection of somebody probably less than ten years of age.

 

Codex cites secondary source H. Donl Peterson for the proposition that Joseph Smith told “several people in his last years” that Moroni left southern Mexico with plates in hand to journey to New York to “bury the plates in a hill near Palmyra.”[44]  Peterson commented upon two versions of a map purportedly drawn by William McBride during one of Joseph Smith’s sermons.  The maps link Mesoamerica to an extended wandering by Moroni to New York.  Peterson quotes another secondary source which claims Joseph Smith as the author of the map.[45]  However, the maps use the words “Utah” and “Arizona” and thus are either not as Sorenson asserts or, once again, were contaminated by wishes of late origin.  But, as Peterson points out, “t is interesting to note that the brethren mentioned on these documents were contemporaries of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and they credited him with the notion that the travels of Moroni began in . . . Central America . . . .”[46]

 

Codex cites the recollection of Charles Lowell Walker who heard the testimony of William McBride, a multiple level of hearsay.  Walker’s diary reports that on January 26, 1881, McBride recounted an address Joseph Smith made to the Nauvoo Legion on 18 or 23 June 1844, wherein Joseph Smith prophesied that the Saints would journey to the Rocky Mountains to live “the Marriage covenant,” and that “we should make stations and build up settlements all the way to new and old Mexico Until [sic] we crossed the Isthmus and get back to the place where the Covenant was broke [i.e., the United Order] by the old Nephites.”[47]  Walker’s editor suggests that the reference to the United Order is a later insertion[48] and the typescript of the journal omits reference to the United Order.[49]  This United Order reference is quite similar to the Hancock reference mentioned above and upon which Sorenson relies.  Further, McBride preached that the great Nephite temple was located at Copan (Honduras), and that the United States government sent Stephens and Catherwood to Central America to prove the falsity of Joseph Smith’s claims but “all they did only proved the Book of Mormon to be an authentic Record of the ancient People of this vast continent.”[50]  The Nephites then journeyed “from the South and southwest” to Cumorah where the records were buried.[51]  Again, this long-after-the-fact recollection reads like folklore, as it is certainly likely that one of Joseph Smith’s stenographers or clerks would have captured an important sermon to the Nauvoo Legion.

[1] Sorenson, Codex, 695. 

[2] “Zarahemla,” Times and Seasons, vol. III, no. 23 (Oct. 1, 1842), at 927.

[3] John L. Stephens, Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan (New York:  Harper Bros., 1841), vol. I, republished at http://books.google.com/books?id=rmEaAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22John%20Lloyd%20Stephens%22%20incidents%20central%20america&pg=PA9#v=onepage&q=%22John%20Lloyd%20Stephens%22%20incidents%20central%20america&f=false, accessed June 9, 2014.

[4] Stephens (1841), at iii, 9; Peter O. Koch, John Lloyd Stephens and Frederick Catherwood:  Pioneers of Mayan Archaeology (Jefferson, North Carolina:  McFarland & Co., 2013), at 1, republished at http://books.google.com/books?id=GNqGVBFtI3oC&lpg=PA278&dq=%22John%20Lloyd%20Stephens%22%20incidents%20central%20america&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q=%22John%20Lloyd%20Stephens%22%20incidents%20central%20america&f=false, accessed June 9, 2014

[5] Koch, at 1.

[6] Stephens (1841), at 98-99.

[7] Koch, at 5.

[8] Stephens (1841), at 98.

[9] Stephens, at 96.

[10] Stephens, at 104.

[11] Stephens, at 104.

[12] Koch, at 4:  “Most historians of Stephens’ era were convinced that there would never again be found cities in the Americas as magnificent or ancient as those discovered during the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs of Mexico or the Incas at Peru.”

[13] Sorenson, Codex, 694, fn. 99.

[14] Sorenson, Codex, 694, fn. 99.

[15] Zarahemla, Times and Seasons, at 927.

[16] David A. Palmer, In Search of Cumorah:  New Evidences for the Book of Mormon from Ancient Mexico (Bountiful, Utah:  Horizon Publishers & Distributors 1984), at 21[014].

[17] The Times and Seasons’ opening July 1839 prospectus said that it would be a “monthly Periodical” to the scattered saints “containing all general information respecting the church; as also, a history of the unparalleled [sic] persecution, which we, as a people, received in Missouri . . . .”  Robinson & Smith, “Prospectus of the Times and Seasons,” Times and Seasons, vol. 1, no. 1 (Nov. x, 1839), at 15, 16 [009].

[18] B.H. Roberts, A Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:  Century 1 (Provo, Utah:  Brigham Young University Press, 1962), vol. II, p. 151[027]; B.H. Roberts, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Salt Lake City, Utah:  Deseret Book 1950)[028] vol. 5, p. 161 (in hiding).

[19] Gordon A. Madsen, Jeffrey N. Walker and John W. Welch, Sustaining the Law:  Joseph Smith’s Legal Encounters (xxxx) xxxx[029].

[20] “Joseph Smith Chronology,” B.Y.U. Studies, at http://josephsmith.byu.edu/default.aspx?year=1842, accessed May 28, 2014.

[21] Mathew Roper, “Joseph Smith and the Question of Book of Mormon Geography,” FAIR Presentation Aug. 5, 2010, at 19, published at http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2010-Matthew-Roper.pdf, at 22, accessed June 8, 2014[042]

[22] “Valedictory,” Feb. 15, 1842, in Times and Seasons, Feb. 15, 1842, vol. 3, no. 8, at 695.

[23] “To Subscribers,” Times and Seasons, Mar. 1, 1842, vol. 3, no. 9, at 710.  The note by Joseph Smith,” Times and Seasons, Mar. 1, 1842, vol. 3, no. 9, at 718.   The article appears in a portion of the periodical dated March 15, 1842.

[24] Roper (2010), at 22. 

[25] Tombstone announcement, Times and Seasons, Oct. 1, 1842, vol. 3, no. 23, at 942.

[26] Roper (2010), at 22.

[27] Joseph Smith, “Valedictory,” Times and Seasons, vol. IV, no. 1 (Nov. 15, 1841), at 8[008]:  “I beg leave to inform the subscribers of the Times and Seasons that it is impossible for me to fulfil the arduous duties of the editorial department any longer.  The multiplicity of other business that daily devolves upon me, renders it impossible for me to do justice to a paper so widely circulated as the Times and Seasons.  I have appointed John Taylor, who is less encumbered and fully competent to assume the responsibilities of that office, and I doubt not but that he will give satisfaction to the patrons of the paper.  As this number commences a new volume, it also commences his editorial career.  JOSEPH SMITH.”

[28] Roper (2010), at 25.

[29] John L. Sorenson, "How Could Joseph Smith Write So Accurately about Ancient American Civilization?" in Donald W. Parry, Daniel C. Peterson, John W. Welch, eds., Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon (Provo, Utah:  Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 2002), at 264.

[30] “American Antiquities – More Proofs of the Book of Mormon,” Times and Seasons, vol. 2, no. 16 (June 15, 1841), at 440[033]; “The Book of Mormon,” Times and Seasons, vol. 2, No. 7 (Feb. 1, 1841), at 305[034].

[31] “Antiquities of America,” The Latter-day Saints’ Millennial Star, Vol. 1, No. 5 (Sep. 5, 1840), at 118[012].

[32] Untitled, The Latter-day Saints’ Millennial Star, Vol. 1, No. 5 (Sep. 5, 1840), at 117[012].

[33] “Ancient Ruins,” Times and Seasons, vol. 5, no. 1 (Jan. 1, 1844), at 390[035]; “From the Texas Telegraph, Oct. 11,” Times and Seasons, vol. 5, no. 1 (Jan. 1, 1844), at 390[035].

[34] “Another Witness for the Book of Mormon,” vol. 6, No. 9 (May 15, 1845), at 906-07[011].

[35]   “Another Mormon Witness,” Times and Seasons, vol. 6, No. 4 (Mar. 1, 1845), at 830[010].

[36] Joseph Smith to John Bernhisel, 16 November 1841, as cited in Mathew Roper, “Joseph Smith and the Question of Book of Mormon Geography,” FAIR Presentation Aug. 5, 2010, at 19, published at http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2010-Matthew-Roper.pdf, accessed June 8, 2014[042].

[37] “Ancient Ruins,” Times and Seasons, vol. V, no. 1 (Jan. 1, 1844), at 390; 1844)[030]; “Another Mormon Witness,” Times and Seasons, vol. 6, No. 4 (Mar. 1, 1845), at 830[010]; “Stephens’ Work on Central America,” Times and Seasons, vol. 4, no. 22 (Oct. 1, 1843), at 346[032]. 

[38] Sorenson, Codex, 694 says:  “On one occasion 10-year-old Mosiah Lyman Hancock heard Joseph tell his family in Nauvoo, Illinois, that ‘the United States will not receive you with the laws which God desires you to live [presumably polygamy], and you will have to go to where the Nephites lost their power . . . . [You] will have to go South,’ indicating at the same time on a map with his finger the direction of Mexico.”

[39] Typescript of Mosiah Lyman Hancock, The Life Story of Mosiah Lyman Hancock (undated), in Harold B. Lee Library stacks, at 1, 19.

[40] Id., at 19.

[41] The full text upon which Sorenson relies:  “The next day the P

[42] Ibid., at 19.

[43] Ibid.

[44] Sorenson, Codex, 695. 

[45] H. Donl Peterson, "Moroni, the Last of the Nephite Prophets," in The Book of Mormon:  Fourth Nephi Through Moroni, from Zion to Destruction, Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds. (Provo, UT:  BYU Religious Studies Center, 1995) 244-47, 244[020].

 

[46] Id.. at 247.

[47] A. Karl Larson and Katherine Miles Larson, Diary of Charles Lowell Walker (Logan, Utah:  Utah State University Press, 1980), at 524-25.

[48] Larson and Larson, at 525.

[49] Diary of Charles L. Walker, 1855-1902, typescript, Harold B. Lee Library.

[50] Larson and Larson, at 525.

[51] Larson and Larson, at 526.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[Calm]

It seems to me that the people in the pews are more likely to believe in Rodney Meldrum than whatever scientiests and anthropologists at BYU are saying. The popular sentiment is riding with Meldrum. I suspect that is because Meldrum is teaching what the rank and file believed in the 60s and 70s. For example:

http://thefamily.com/tag/mounds/

Meldrum's theory are appealing to a certain segment IMO because he has linked himself to a particular political interpretation including that the promises and prophecies primarily relate solely to the US.

I believe much of his appeal is from the same cause as the appeal of "Vision of Glory" and other books which turn scriptural events and warnings into more easily identifiable and understandable commentaries. Such things give people a greater sense of control over their lives for a variety of reasons and this is a very common, very understandable, very strong human need.

Edited July 1, 2014 by calmoriah

[cinepro]

Meldrum's theory are appealing to a certain segment IMO because he has linked himself to a particular political interpretation including that the promises and prophecies primarily relate solely to the US.

I believe much of his appeal is from the same cause as the appeal of "Vision of Glory" and other books which turn scriptural events and warnings into more easily identifiable and understandable commentaries. Such things give people a greater sense of control over their lives for a variety of reasons and this is a very common, very understandable, very strong human need.

 

Strong human need indeed.

 

Indeed!

Edited July 1, 2014 by cinepro

[Tiki]

Meldrum's theory are appealing to a certain segment IMO because he has linked himself to a particular political interpretation including that the promises and prophecies primarily relate solely to the US.

I believe much of his appeal is from the same cause as the appeal of "Vision of Glory" and other books which turn scriptural events and warnings into more easily identifiable and understandable commentaries. Such things give people a greater sense of control over their lives for a variety of reasons and this is a very common, very understandable, very strong human need.

Sorenson's theory is appealing to a certain segment who believe the Prophet should learn the geography of the Book of Mormon from a travel book written by John Lloyd Stephens, because he was a popular author in his day. Or the Prophet should learn the geographical location of the Ten Lost Tribes from the National Geographic Magazine.

[ELF1024]

If you ever take time to read the Doctrine and Covenants, you might be surprised at the scope and breadth of the subjects upon which Joseph received revelation.  It's possible your standard is quite a bit higher than his when it comes to what will or won't be revealed.

 

Doesn't really chance the fact that if your running around in a loincloth in New York in the Winter... your going to be freezing your... loins off...

 

I spent seveal winters at Fort Drum (2007- 2009) and believe me, I would much rather be an eskimo than in a loincloth.

[Tiki]

Doesn't really chance the fact that if your running around in a loincloth in New York in the Winter... your going to be freezing your... loins off...

I spent seveal winters at Fort Drum (2007- 2009) and believe me, I would much rather be an eskimo than in a loincloth.

Apparently, you have never read any of the Leatherstocking Tales.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Tiki

[USU78]

Apparently, you have never read any of the Leatherstocking Tales.

 

Which are, of course, fiction, n'est-ce pas?

[Tiki]

Which are, of course, fiction, n'est-ce pas?

Of course they are fiction, because North America didn't have any Native Americans. It was too cold because all they wore were loin cloths. So every winter the native americans migrated south to Mesoamerica. And in the Spring they returned to New York, with their loincloths.

 

They also brought their snowshoes with them from Mesoamerica, as well.

 

"The Eastern Woodlands native people wore leather or cloth, footless "tubes" around their legs to protect them from the elements. The men's version reached their upper thigh and were held in place by loops attached to their belts. When the immigrants to the region came to stay they adopted the protected clothing. The buckskin outfit with leggings has come to embody the idea of "The Noble Savage" as personified by Cooper's good and valiant character, Natty Bumppo."

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art35109.asp

Edited July 2, 2014 by Tiki

[ELF1024]

Of course they are fiction, because North America didn't have any Native Americans. It was too cold because all they wore were loin cloths. So every winter the native americans migrated south to Mesoamerica. And in the Spring they returned to New York, with their loincloths.

Well... from Rochester NY, to San Antonio, Texas is 1648 miles... at 30 miles a day, that would take... about 55 days of walking.

 

I suppose that isn't completely impossible... however I don't think it's likely.

Edited July 2, 2014 by ELF1024

[Tiki]

I like the "hit-job" F.A.R.M.S. did on the Zelph story in the History of the Church:

 

 

Insights 6/3 (1986)  >  To Be Successful, We Need Your Support

"One of the goals of F.A.R.M.S. is to provide research grants for projects that are essential in bringing greater understanding to the Book of Mormon in light of its ancient origins. To do this properly takes money."

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1353&index=17

 

Insights 9/1 (1989)  >  An Ancient Window

In recent years, discussions of Book of Mormon geography have concentrated on limited areas in Mesoamerica. The story of "Zelph, the white Lamanite," is frequently cited as evidence that the Nephites occupied the entire North American continent and fought some of their final battles near the Illinois River.  ....   In his paper "The Zelph Story," Godfrey, a C.E.S. administrator, reviews all the original journals from Zion's Camp and compares the information contained in each.

 

Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 8/2 (1999)  >  What Is the Significance of Zelph in the Study of Book of Mormon Geography? by Godfrey

If the history of the church were to be revised today using modern historical standards, readers would be informed that Joseph Smith wrote nothing about the discovery of Zelph, and that the account of uncovering the skeleton in Pike County is based on the diaries of seven members of Zion's Camp, some of which were written long after the event took place. We would be assured that the members of Zion's Camp dug up a skeleton near the Illinois River in early June 1834. Equally sure is that Joseph Smith made statements about the deceased person and his historical setting. We would learn that it is unclear which statements attributed to him derived from his vision, as opposed to being implied or surmised either by him or by others. Nothing in the diaries suggests that the mound itself was discovered by revelation.

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1398&index=11

 

Pretty good "hit-job" wasn't it?

[Tiki]

Well... from Rochester NY, to San Antonio, Texas is 1648 miles... at 30 miles a day, that would take... about 55 days of walking.

 

I suppose that isn't completely impossible... however I don't think it's likely.

I was being sarcastic. Native Americans lived in North America when it was cold. So why is "cold" an issue?

[ELF1024]

I was being sarcastic. Native Americans lived in North America when it was cold. So why is "cold" an issue?

 

Book of Mormon specifically mentions Shaved Heads & Loincloths... which to me, doesn't make sense for New York.

[ERayR]

Book of Mormon specifically mentions Shaved Heads & Loincloths... which to me, doesn't make sense for New York.

 

Summer wardrobe. 

[ELF1024]

Summer wardrobe. 

 

Except the warfare was in the winter, during the non-farming months.

[Tiki]

Summer wardrobe. 

The Lamanites intially occupied the southern lands. See also Helman 1:14.

It's obvious also the Sons of Mosiah were dressed in loin cloths by King Lamoni? Alma 21:14

Did you run around during your mission in a loincloth?  

 

See Helaman 9:31 - A Nephite, of course wearing a cloak in those hot lands of Mesoamerica.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Tiki

[Tiki]

Except the warfare was in the winter, during the non-farming months.

According to Dr. Sorenson, who claims Mesoamerica only has two seasons: Warm and Warmer.

Does Mosiah 11:16 sound like winter time? Mosiah 23:26? Alma 3:2 ? Alma 4:2 ? 

 

Do you know how to use the search engine at LDS.org/scriptures?

Edited July 2, 2014 by Tiki

[ELF1024]

The Lamanites intially occupied the southern lands. See also Helman 1:14.

It's obvious also the Sons of Mosiah were dressed in loin cloths by King Lamoni? Alma 21:14

Did you run around during your mission in a loincloth?  

 

I didn't serve a mission... and where I wear my lioncloth is none of your business