An Open Letter To Rodney Meldrum

[livy111us]

Since your premise "the events had to take place between the east and west sea" is a false premise, then everything attached to it is wrong. That's why.

The seas were in the North.

The definition of the lands differ in Alma 22 from Alma 50 when Captain Moroni chased the Lamanites from the east wilderness which was north of Zarahemla:

"9 And it came to pass that when Moroni had driven all the Lamanites out of the east wilderness, which was north of the lands of their own possessions, he caused that the inhabitants who were in the land of Zarahemla and in the land round about should go forth into the east wilderness, even to the borders by the seashore, and possess the land."

Then the city of Moroni was built in this location, by the east sea which was NORTH of Zarahemla.

According to the LGT, Moroni should have built the city of Moroni east by the seashore on the Gulf of Mexico and east of Zarahemla.

But the verse states the east sea was in the east wilderness NORTH of Zarahemla, not directly east of Zarahemla. This does not match the LGT.

Verse 9 above also contradicts your statement the Lamanites were also always south of Zarahemla.

 

You didn't answer any of my comments about contradictions of a Great Lakes setting for The Book of Mormon, but only sidestepped them. The Book of Mormon says the East and West sea extended from the southernmost point of the Lamanite land down south to the northernmost of the Nephite land. You can argue all day long that the east and west sea were in the land northward all you want because that is not my argument. But you have to deal with the fact that these seas existed on both sides of the Nephite and Lamanite lands from the land of Nephi all the way north to the land northward. The Book of Mormon is very clear on this matter. It says that they were there and no matter how much you dislike it or disagree with it, the fact is, it says it right there in Alma as posted above. So, no, my premise is not incorrect. By accepting the Great Lakes as the east and west sea you are forcing the entire BOM narrative into your narrow neck of land and eliminating the possibility of Zarahemla being across from Nauvoo, eliminating the possibility of Manti being near Huntsville and having The Book of Mormon take place in what is now the USA.

 

Verse 9 says that they inhabited the land next to Zarahemla, yet they never left their cities to the south. They were even chased out of this part of the land back to their homeland with the rest of the Lamanites later on. They never abandoned previous cities. A cursory read of the text makes that obvious.

[Stargazer]

I don't care who believes what, really, but I find the whole thing rather fascinating in that there is genuine animosity over something that really doesn't matter. It's sort of the same fascination I have that every March 23, Bolivians hold huge demonstrations during which they burn Chilean flags.

 

Well, if someone stole your seacoast, you'd be pretty annoyed, too!  

[Stargazer]

Absolutely true.  I have literally scores if not hundreds of such notes still on my computer, denouncing me as an unbeliever.  (I don't delete enough.)

 

And it simply isn't reciprocal.  I have never, ever, heard a limited-geography advocate denounce Meldrumites as apostates.

 

This alone is enough to tell me where the truth most likely resides.

[Robert F. Smith]

Ok, that's fine. So you agree the LGT consists solely of individuals who were speculating. Thus the LGT was built upon speculation and F.A.R.M.S. publications agreed with and/or attacked member and non-member alike who agreed or disagreed with the speculations published under the name of F.A.R.M.S. ? I thought it was claimed that there was a consensus among scholars (F.A.R.M.S. LGT scribes, as I put it) that Mesoamerica was the correct location. Now this consensus is speculation? I appreciate the clarification.

Put any negative spin on it that you wish.  Much of scholarship is speculation, but there is a great deal of difference between learned speculation and the sort of wild, off-the-wall speculation which some people prefer.  However, in neither case will such good or bad speculation provide one with eternal salvation.  This applies to all fields of scholarship.

 

What might be nice, Tiki, would be for you to make an effort to more accurately reflect what individual writers say, rather than carelessly claiming some sort of organizational conspiracy.  Might not be as much fun for you, but it would be more gentlemanly.

[livy111us]

Dan Peterson,

Tiki is the same guy who sent you the barrage of emails several years ago. As you can see, not much has changed. 

But, to your credit, Tiki, You have toned it down a *bit*

[Robert F. Smith]

 

There were many articles in the Times and Seasons and the Millennial Star about Book of Mormon geography.   There were many when Joseph Smith was the editor.  They were often labeled "proofs of the Book of Mormon," and discussed finds in New England, Tennessee, Ohio, as well as Stephens and Catherwood's finds, which itself covered several articles.   So it is really incorrect to say that Book of Mormon geography was not important to the early saints.  It was very important.

 

The Joseph Smith Papers project has identified an official "History", "co-edited by Joseph Smith", declaring the New York Cumorah as the site of the Nephine and Jaredite battles.   This is an article originally authored by Oliver Cowdery for the Messenger & Advocate but which was incorporated in the the Church's official history.  It certainly was important then.

 

 

Yet, most serious attempts at a Book of Mormon geography attempt to enlist Joseph Smith to support a particular poit of view. If his opinion weren't important I doubt that LGT theorists would reference Joseph Smith's beliefs.  Dr. Sorenson himself does it in Codex. The following is text from a paper of mine in production.  (Again, I am agnostic as to which model is correct, the hemispheric, Mesoamerican LGT or other LGT; I am more interested in critiquing the methodology of LGT theorists and analyzing church support for particular theories.)

 

Sorenson states that Joseph Smith “became convinced in the last years of his life” that the Nephite lands were in Mesoamerica.  Sorenson says that Joseph Smith told “several people in his last years” that Moroni left southern Mexico with plates in hand to journey to New York to “bury the plates in a hill near Palmyra.”[1]  Sorenson’s most significant proof is an anonymous article in the 1 October 1842 Times and Seasons[2] (the official organ of the Church) which discussed John Lloyd Stephens’ work, Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatán (1841).[3]

 

President Martin van Buren commissioned New York lawyer Stephens to undertake an exploration of Central American ruins.[4]  Accompanying him was his traveling companion, Frederick Catherwood, who served as the expedition’s artist.[5]  At the time of Stephens’ exploration, the Central American ruins were well-known to western scholars.[6]   Stephens, however, had a long history as a best-selling author and his 1841 work about his visit to Central American proved to be immensely popular.[7]  Stephens supposed the ruins of Central America were somehow linked to the mound-builders of North America, finds of supposed Phoenician origin in Massachusetts and other finds in Ohio, Mississippi, Arkansas and elsewhere.[8]  He recounted theories that these people were descendants of Jews, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks, and Scythians of “ancient times.”[9]

 

Nonetheless, the enigma of sophisticated building structures in the presence of “savages” perplexed Stephens.  “We sat down on the very edge of the wall [of ruins in Copan], and strove in vain to penetrate the mystery by which were surrounded.”[10]  “We asked the Indians who made them, and their dull answer was ‘Quien sabe?’”[11]  Stephens did not necessarily tread new ground in proposing the sophistication of Native Americans, as the immense aboriginal structures of Mexico were reported by Cortez, but Stephens added to academic and popular knowledge his surveys of ruins at Chiapas and Yucatan.[12]

 

Sorenson’s Codex describes this 1 October 1842 article as “concerning Smith and his cohorts’ reading of John Lloyd Stephens book Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucatán (1841).”[13]  Codex quotes the 1 October 1842 Times and Seasons article’s statement that the “city of Zarahemla . . . stood upon this land,” namely, Central America.[14]  In a cite routinely used by Mesoamerican Book of Mormon theorists, the Times & Seasons article concludes with:  “It will not be a bad plan to compare Mr. Stephens’ ruined cities with those in the Book of Mormon: light cleaves to light, and facts are supported by facts.  The truth injures no one . . . .”[15]   Likewise, David A. Palmer, a chemical engineer who authored In Search of Cumorah (1984) cites this Times and Seasons article as the only source for the proposition that the “prophet Joseph Smith has stated very clearly that the approach to Book of Mormon geography must be primarily of an intellectual nature.”[16]

 

Although this 1 October 1842 anonymous article is the single most significant statement about a Mesoamerican connection to be found in any official Church organ,[17] questions remain as to Joseph Smith’s connection with the article.   Joseph Smith was, actually, in hiding in the latter part of 1842 due to repeated efforts to arrest him in connection with the assassination attempt on former Missouri governor Lilburn Boggs.  B.H. Roberts reports that upon hearing that Illinois officers were in Nauvoo, “it had been decided by President Smith and his friends, that the best thing for himself and Rockwell to do, in the then excited state of public opinion, was to keep out of the way for a season; so that the officers upon their return to Nauvoo were unable to find them.”[18]  On September 20, 1842, Illinois Governor Thomas Carlin issued a proclamation describing the legal basis for the issuance of arrest warrants for Joseph Smith and Porter Rockwell.[19]  It further does not appear from the chronology of Joseph Smith’s life for the September and October 1842 period that he had anything to do with the periodical.[20]

 

However, as Matthew Roper points out, Joseph Smith was editor as of the early part of 1842.[21]  In February 15, 1842, the Times and Seasons reported.  “The Editorial chair will be filled by our esteemed brother, President Joseph Smith, assisted by Elder John Taylor . . .”[22]  As well, on March 16, 1842, Joseph Smith announced in the same edition of the paper that “[t]his paper commences my editorial career . . . .”[23]  Roper points to a March 1842 tombstone advertisement showing that Joseph Smith was the editor.[24]   The tombstone announcement for the 1 October 1842 paper says that Joseph Smith was editor and publisher.[25]  Roper reports that “[t]he Prophet continued to serve as editor until mid-November, 1842[26] and, indeed, Joseph Smith again resigned on November 15, 1842 although the announcement is strangely dated 1841.[27]  Roper further asserts that a wordprint analysis yields the conclusion that Joseph Smith authored the 1 October 1842 article, but perhaps it is not unreasonable to doubt the science behind a wordprint analysis without more details as to its techniques and controls.[28]

 

Sorenson has also relied upon a 15 September 1842 Times and Seasons article.   “So Joseph Smith was surprised, when in 1842 in Nauvoo, he and his associates read Stephens’s book.  A [15 September 1842] comment in the Times and Season, the newspaper that Smith edited, clearly reflects that fact . . . .”[29]  Yet, there is nothing in the 15 September 1842 article to show that Joseph Smith was surprised then by Stephens’s work.   There could have been no surprise as the Church had published two earlier articles[30] as well as in the British Millennial Star[31] extolling Stephens’s work as evidence of Book of Mormon evidences.  

 

These Church periodical descriptions of Stephens’s work, however, cannot be read as has been suggested, that Mesoamerica is the exclusive situs of Book of Mormon events.  The Millennial Star and the Times and Seasons describe Book of Mormon proofs found in far-flung Native American sites in North America.  One article stated that “proof of the truth of the Book of Mormon” can be found in ruins and artifacts “scattered over a vast extent of North and South America” as “proof of the truth of the Book of Mormon.”[32]  Other Times and Seasons articles identified Book of Mormon proofs of artifacts found in Texas[33], Michigan[34] and Pennsylvania.[35]

 

Joseph Smith, nonetheless was enthusiastic about Stephens’s finds in a letter written to John Bernhisel on 16 November 1841.[36]  The several Times and Seasons articles enthusiastic about Stephens’ book, obviously made in the context of Book of Mormon proofs,[37] show general acceptance among members of the Church in Nauvoo that the Book of Mormon account was somewhat vindicated by archaeology.

 

Soren’s Codex cites a second proof in support of the view that Joseph Smith became convinced of a limited geographical setting.  Sorenson relies upon Mosiah Lyman Hancock’s “Life Story,” wherein Hancock – as a ten year old – recounts Joseph Smith’s admonition to go to the land of the Nephites, or Mexico.[38] Actually, the cited statement from Hancock’s recollection as a ten-year-old (or more likely much younger, as he was born April 9, 1834, slightly more than ten years before the martyrdom of Joseph Smith) is absurdly detailed, as he recounts Joseph Smith prophesying about the pioneers’ trek through Iowa to “the valley of the Great Salt Lake,” where the “United Order” will be practiced “even [as] the City of Enoch.”[39]  As to Sorenson’s assertion that little Hancock was told to go to Mexico, where the Nephites lost their power, Hancock says that he saw Joseph Smith “[p]lacing his finger on the map, I think about where Snowflake, Arizona is situated, or it could have been Mexico. . . .”[40]  Sorenson’s interpretation may be incorrect, as Hancock’s reference to Mexico appears to refer to the Saints’ colonization of the northern Mexican states to avoid prosecution for polygamy.[41]  The full text of Hancock’s recollection of Joseph Smith is:

 

[block]I went and got my map for him.  “Now,” he said, “I will show you the travels of this people.”   He then showed our travels thru Iowa, and said, “Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake!  You will build cities to the North and to the South, and to the East and to the West; and you will become a great and wealthy people in that land.  But, the United States will not receive you with the laws which God desires you to live, and you will have to go where the Nephites lost their power.  They worked in the United Order for 166 years, and the Saints have got to become proficient in the laws of God before they can ever meet the Lord Jesus Christ, or even the city of Enoch.”  He said we will not travel the shape of the horse shoe for there well will await the action of the government.  Placing his finger on the map, I should think about where Snowflake, Arizona is situated, or it could have been Mexico, he said, “The government will not receive you with the laws that God designed you to live, and those who are desirous to live the laws of God will have to go South.[/block][42]

 

In the text that follows this paragraph, Hancock recalls Joseph Smith prophesying about two different political parties, the “United Order,” the Democrats and the Republicans, who will go to war, which will result in the creation of the “Independent American Party.”  The United States will fight in foreign lands where “one half of the U.S. army will give up” until “the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the American army . . . .”[43]  Hancock’s concluding entry is in the spring of 1865, where he was living in southern Utah.  It thus seems very probable that Hancock’s recollection as a ten-year-old was contaminated by events which occurred long after Joseph Smith’s death; in any event, it is too detailed a recollection to be reasonable.  Certainly, such a detailed prophecy combining reference to foreign wars, two different political parties, the Salt Lake Valley and the emigration to Mexico would have been much better documented than from the recollection of somebody probably less than ten years of age.

 

Codex cites secondary source H. Donl Peterson for the proposition that Joseph Smith told “several people in his last years” that Moroni left southern Mexico with plates in hand to journey to New York to “bury the plates in a hill near Palmyra.”[44]  Peterson commented upon two versions of a map purportedly drawn by William McBride during one of Joseph Smith’s sermons.  The maps link Mesoamerica to an extended wandering by Moroni to New York.  Peterson quotes another secondary source which claims Joseph Smith as the author of the map.[45]  However, the maps use the words “Utah” and “Arizona” and thus are either not as Sorenson asserts or, once again, were contaminated by wishes of late origin.  But, as Peterson points out, “t is interesting to note that the brethren mentioned on these documents were contemporaries of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and they credited him with the notion that the travels of Moroni began in . . . Central America . . . .”[46]

 

Codex cites the recollection of Charles Lowell Walker who heard the testimony of William McBride, a multiple level of hearsay.  Walker’s diary reports that on January 26, 1881, McBride recounted an address Joseph Smith made to the Nauvoo Legion on 18 or 23 June 1844, wherein Joseph Smith prophesied that the Saints would journey to the Rocky Mountains to live “the Marriage covenant,” and that “we should make stations and build up settlements all the way to new and old Mexico Until [sic] we crossed the Isthmus and get back to the place where the Covenant was broke [i.e., the United Order] by the old Nephites.”[47]  Walker’s editor suggests that the reference to the United Order is a later insertion[48] and the typescript of the journal omits reference to the United Order.[49]  This United Order reference is quite similar to the Hancock reference mentioned above and upon which Sorenson relies.  Further, McBride preached that the great Nephite temple was located at Copan (Honduras), and that the United States government sent Stephens and Catherwood to Central America to prove the falsity of Joseph Smith’s claims but “all they did only proved the Book of Mormon to be an authentic Record of the ancient People of this vast continent.”[50]  The Nephites then journeyed “from the South and southwest” to Cumorah where the records were buried.[51]  Again, this long-after-the-fact recollection reads like folklore, as it is certainly likely that one of Joseph Smith’s stenographers or clerks would have captured an important sermon to the Nauvoo Legion.

[1] Sorenson, Codex, 695. 

[2] “Zarahemla,” Times and Seasons, vol. III, no. 23 (Oct. 1, 1842), at 927.

[3] John L. Stephens, Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan (New York:  Harper Bros., 1841), vol. I, republished at http://books.google.com/books?id=rmEaAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22John%20Lloyd%20Stephens%22%20incidents%20central%20america&pg=PA9#v=onepage&q=%22John%20Lloyd%20Stephens%22%20incidents%20central%20america&f=false, accessed June 9, 2014.

[4] Stephens (1841), at iii, 9; Peter O. Koch, John Lloyd Stephens and Frederick Catherwood:  Pioneers of Mayan Archaeology (Jefferson, North Carolina:  McFarland & Co., 2013), at 1, republished at http://books.google.com/books?id=GNqGVBFtI3oC&lpg=PA278&dq=%22John%20Lloyd%20Stephens%22%20incidents%20central%20america&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q=%22John%20Lloyd%20Stephens%22%20incidents%20central%20america&f=false, accessed June 9, 2014

[5] Koch, at 1.

[6] Stephens (1841), at 98-99.

[7] Koch, at 5.

[8] Stephens (1841), at 98.

[9] Stephens, at 96.

[10] Stephens, at 104.

[11] Stephens, at 104.

[12] Koch, at 4:  “Most historians of Stephens’ era were convinced that there would never again be found cities in the Americas as magnificent or ancient as those discovered during the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs of Mexico or the Incas at Peru.”

[13] Sorenson, Codex, 694, fn. 99.

[14] Sorenson, Codex, 694, fn. 99.

[15] Zarahemla, Times and Seasons, at 927.

[16] David A. Palmer, In Search of Cumorah:  New Evidences for the Book of Mormon from Ancient Mexico (Bountiful, Utah:  Horizon Publishers & Distributors 1984), at 21[014].

[17] The Times and Seasons’ opening July 1839 prospectus said that it would be a “monthly Periodical” to the scattered saints “containing all general information respecting the church; as also, a history of the unparalleled [sic] persecution, which we, as a people, received in Missouri . . . .”  Robinson & Smith, “Prospectus of the Times and Seasons,” Times and Seasons, vol. 1, no. 1 (Nov. x, 1839), at 15, 16 [009].

[18] B.H. Roberts, A Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:  Century 1 (Provo, Utah:  Brigham Young University Press, 1962), vol. II, p. 151[027]; B.H. Roberts, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Salt Lake City, Utah:  Deseret Book 1950)[028] vol. 5, p. 161 (in hiding).

[19] Gordon A. Madsen, Jeffrey N. Walker and John W. Welch, Sustaining the Law:  Joseph Smith’s Legal Encounters (xxxx) xxxx[029].

[20] “Joseph Smith Chronology,” B.Y.U. Studies, at http://josephsmith.byu.edu/default.aspx?year=1842, accessed May 28, 2014.

[21] Mathew Roper, “Joseph Smith and the Question of Book of Mormon Geography,” FAIR Presentation Aug. 5, 2010, at 19, published at http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2010-Matthew-Roper.pdf, at 22, accessed June 8, 2014[042]

[22] “Valedictory,” Feb. 15, 1842, in Times and Seasons, Feb. 15, 1842, vol. 3, no. 8, at 695.

[23] “To Subscribers,” Times and Seasons, Mar. 1, 1842, vol. 3, no. 9, at 710.  The note by Joseph Smith,” Times and Seasons, Mar. 1, 1842, vol. 3, no. 9, at 718.   The article appears in a portion of the periodical dated March 15, 1842.

[24] Roper (2010), at 22. 

[25] Tombstone announcement, Times and Seasons, Oct. 1, 1842, vol. 3, no. 23, at 942.

[26] Roper (2010), at 22.

[27] Joseph Smith, “Valedictory,” Times and Seasons, vol. IV, no. 1 (Nov. 15, 1841), at 8[008]:  “I beg leave to inform the subscribers of the Times and Seasons that it is impossible for me to fulfil the arduous duties of the editorial department any longer.  The multiplicity of other business that daily devolves upon me, renders it impossible for me to do justice to a paper so widely circulated as the Times and Seasons.  I have appointed John Taylor, who is less encumbered and fully competent to assume the responsibilities of that office, and I doubt not but that he will give satisfaction to the patrons of the paper.  As this number commences a new volume, it also commences his editorial career.  JOSEPH SMITH.”

[28] Roper (2010), at 25.

[29] John L. Sorenson, "How Could Joseph Smith Write So Accurately about Ancient American Civilization?" in Donald W. Parry, Daniel C. Peterson, John W. Welch, eds., Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon (Provo, Utah:  Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 2002), at 264.

[30] “American Antiquities – More Proofs of the Book of Mormon,” Times and Seasons, vol. 2, no. 16 (June 15, 1841), at 440[033]; “The Book of Mormon,” Times and Seasons, vol. 2, No. 7 (Feb. 1, 1841), at 305[034].

[31] “Antiquities of America,” The Latter-day Saints’ Millennial Star, Vol. 1, No. 5 (Sep. 5, 1840), at 118[012].

[32] Untitled, The Latter-day Saints’ Millennial Star, Vol. 1, No. 5 (Sep. 5, 1840), at 117[012].

[33] “Ancient Ruins,” Times and Seasons, vol. 5, no. 1 (Jan. 1, 1844), at 390[035]; “From the Texas Telegraph, Oct. 11,” Times and Seasons, vol. 5, no. 1 (Jan. 1, 1844), at 390[035].

[34] “Another Witness for the Book of Mormon,” vol. 6, No. 9 (May 15, 1845), at 906-07[011].

[35]   “Another Mormon Witness,” Times and Seasons, vol. 6, No. 4 (Mar. 1, 1845), at 830[010].

[36] Joseph Smith to John Bernhisel, 16 November 1841, as cited in Mathew Roper, “Joseph Smith and the Question of Book of Mormon Geography,” FAIR Presentation Aug. 5, 2010, at 19, published at http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2010-Matthew-Roper.pdf, accessed June 8, 2014[042].

[37] “Ancient Ruins,” Times and Seasons, vol. V, no. 1 (Jan. 1, 1844), at 390; 1844)[030]; “Another Mormon Witness,” Times and Seasons, vol. 6, No. 4 (Mar. 1, 1845), at 830[010]; “Stephens’ Work on Central America,” Times and Seasons, vol. 4, no. 22 (Oct. 1, 1843), at 346[032]. 

[38] Sorenson, Codex, 694 says:  “On one occasion 10-year-old Mosiah Lyman Hancock heard Joseph tell his family in Nauvoo, Illinois, that ‘the United States will not receive you with the laws which God desires you to live [presumably polygamy], and you will have to go to where the Nephites lost their power . . . . [You] will have to go South,’ indicating at the same time on a map with his finger the direction of Mexico.”

[39] Typescript of Mosiah Lyman Hancock, The Life Story of Mosiah Lyman Hancock (undated), in Harold B. Lee Library stacks, at 1, 19.

[40] Id., at 19.

[41] The full text upon which Sorenson relies:  “The next day the P

[42] Ibid., at 19.

[43] Ibid.

[44] Sorenson, Codex, 695. 

[45] H. Donl Peterson, "Moroni, the Last of the Nephite Prophets," in The Book of Mormon:  Fourth Nephi Through Moroni, from Zion to Destruction, Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds. (Provo, UT:  BYU Religious Studies Center, 1995) 244-47, 244[020].

 

[46] Id.. at 247.

[47] A. Karl Larson and Katherine Miles Larson, Diary of Charles Lowell Walker (Logan, Utah:  Utah State University Press, 1980), at 524-25.

[48] Larson and Larson, at 525.

[49] Diary of Charles L. Walker, 1855-1902, typescript, Harold B. Lee Library.

[50] Larson and Larson, at 525.

[51] Larson and Larson, at 526.

 

Bob,

As you write your paper on this subject, you might want to have a look at Matt Roper, Paul Fields, and Atul Nepal, "Joseph Smith, the Times and Seasons, and Central American Ruins," JBMS, 22/2 (2013):84-97.

[ERayR]

Ok, that's fine. So you agree the LGT consists solely of individuals who were speculating. Thus the LGT was built upon speculation and F.A.R.M.S. publications agreed with and/or attacked member and non-member alike who agreed or disagreed with the speculations published under the name of F.A.R.M.S. ? I thought it was claimed that there was a consensus among scholars (F.A.R.M.S. LGT scribes, as I put it) that Mesoamerica was the correct location. Now this consensus is speculation? I appreciate the clarification.

 

As long as you agree all other models consists solely on speculation.

[Tiki]

There's nothing for me to take up with them.

The relevant Book of Mormon verses still say that Sidon (1) rises in the south wilderness, near the border between traditional Nephite and Lamanite lands, (2) flows through Nephite lands towards the sea, and (3) its banks are invariably described as "east" and "west."

Join the dots, Tiki. Which direction is it flowing?

Regards,

Pahoran

 

Let's see.

Which North is it? True North? or Mesoamerica Nephite North?

Is it North looking west at the sunset, or north looking east of the sunrise?

And do we need to modify the text of the Book of Mormon whenever it mentions east, west, south, or north?

 

And, it's a good thing the River Sidon continued to flow "north" even after the geography was rotated 90­° to fit Mesoamerica - as can be seen in the attached image.

 

By the way, where are the four seas in the Land Northward as described in Helaman Chapter 3 ?

Edited July 11, 2014 by Tiki

[Tiki]

As long as you agree all other models consists solely on speculation.

No. I don't agree Joseph Smith was speculating, which is the basis for the LGT. But I repeat myself for the benefit of the reader:

 

"What may startle some about this situation is that most of what Joseph Smith said or implied about geography indicates that he did not understand or was ambiguous about the fact, as it turns out, that Mesoamerica was the particular setting for Nephite history." http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1099&index=19

 

One would think a geography theory could speculate in defense of the Prophet Joseph Smith. But that's too simplistic, isn't it.

[USU78]

If Brother Joseph is the author of the BoM, assuming, of course, the BoM can be demonstrated to have an internally consistent geography, he is going to know that geography.

 

If he is merely an instrument through whom the text is transmitted (whether or not his involvement in the production of the English version is tight or loose), then any statements he makes on the subject following publication may or may not be accurate, and we should not be surprised if it turns out he was dead wrong in some particulars . . . or dead on in some particulars.

[livy111us]

Tiki,

I'd like to hear a response to the information I provided showing the implausibility of your geography. This is damning information to the heartland theory and proves that it is impossible for the Great Lakes area or heartland to be BOM lands, which makes all of your other arguments invalid.

 

Fair just released a video on Joseph Smith's beliefs and teachings BOM geography that is relevant to your other comments, Tiki.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rsyAExrNNc

Edited July 11, 2014 by livy111us

[Stargazer]

Bob,

As you write your paper on this subject, you might want to have a look at Matt Roper, Paul Fields, and Atul Nepal, "Joseph Smith, the Times and Seasons, and Central American Ruins," JBMS, 22/2 (2013):84-97.

 

Robert, did you REALLY have to quote that entire encyclopedia-length post, just so you could respond with this little blurb?  I almost missed your blurb in all that.

 

[Stargazer]

Let's see.

Which North is it? True North? or Mesoamerica Nephite North?

Is it North looking west at the sunset, or north looking east of the sunrise?

And do we need to modify the text of the Book of Mormon whenever it mentions east, west, south, or north?

 

And, it's a good thing the River Sidon continued to flow "north" even after the geography was rotated 90­° to fit Mesoamerica - as can be seen in the attached image.

 

By the way, where are the four seas in the Land Northward as described in Helaman Chapter 3 ?

 

Not that I care much about all this bloviating between you guys, but I would like to note that you can still see the pole star from Mesoamerica and thus can easily gauge which direction North is.  I think ancient peoples, not having all this light polution we are accustomed to, were all very clear on which direction North is.

[livy111us]

 

Sorry, I don't know how to make this smaller. But this is how Mesoamerican viewed directions. When you realize how they understood north, then The Book of Mormon directions fit better (northward, southward, etc...) and also the accusations of Mesoamerica not fitting our modern view of directions disappears.

 

You can read Poulson's comments about Mesoamerican directions here http://poulsenll.org/bom/bomdirections.html

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knw0pl8Ifsc

Edited July 11, 2014 by livy111us

[Bob Crockett]

Bob,

As you write your paper on this subject, you might want to have a look at Matt Roper, Paul Fields, and Atul Nepal, "Joseph Smith, the Times and Seasons, and Central American Ruins," JBMS, 22/2 (2013):84-97.

[Bob Crockett]

I will. I have yet to make a full survey of FARMS literature. The new website makes it difficult for researchers. Thx

[livy111us]

I will. I have yet to make a full survey of FARMS literature. The new website makes it difficult for researchers. Thx

 

Bob, here is a link to the said paper http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/22/2/7RoperFieldsNepal_JS%20Times%20and%20Seasons%20and%20CA%20Ruins.pdf

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert, did you REALLY have to quote that entire encyclopedia-length post, just so you could respond with this little blurb?  I almost missed your blurb in all that.

 

Crockett deserves all the play he can get out of his forthcoming article (or book), seeing as how he is issuing a pox vobiscum (sic) on everybody. Give him enough rope, and . . . 

[Robert F. Smith]

I will. I have yet to make a full survey of FARMS literature. The new website makes it difficult for researchers. Thx

Most FARMS publications are not online, and it is not clear that they ever will be.  The current JBMS is, of course, not a FARMS publication, but is now a Maxwell Institute publication.

[Robert F. Smith]

Not that I care much about all this bloviating between you guys, but I would like to note that you can still see the pole star from Mesoamerica and thus can easily gauge which direction North is.  I think ancient peoples, not having all this light polution we are accustomed to, were all very clear on which direction North is.

There is by-gosh-and-by-golly supposition, and then there is anthropological reality -- based on what the local peoples (and the Conquistadores) actually believed and wrote.  When we take into consideration what the evidence actually shows (rather than what we think they probably thought) we find the Book of Mormon fits quite well into the Mesoamerican cosmography.  All of this has been explained in great detail in a number of publications, although some people just don't want to be confused by the facts.  Throwing a tantrum is not the same as having rational discourse about such matters.

[ERayR]

Let's see.

Which North is it? True North? or Mesoamerica Nephite North?

Is it North looking west at the sunset, or north looking east of the sunrise?

And do we need to modify the text of the Book of Mormon whenever it mentions east, west, south, or north?

 

And, it's a good thing the River Sidon continued to flow "north" even after the geography was rotated 90­° to fit Mesoamerica - as can be seen in the attached image.

 

By the way, where are the four seas in the Land Northward as described in Helaman Chapter 3 ?

 

All this from a guy who gets lost in Wal-Mart parking lot.

[Sevenbak]

But Orson Pratt also placed BOM events in Mesoamerica. He was generally an HGT. I can point to a dozen early apostles who placed events in where I believe The BOM to have taken place as well. Orson Pratt was speaking for Orson Pratt, not the Church, so his statement is irrevelant.

 

In regards to the loincloths year round, Randall Spackman has done the most comprehensive work on The Book of Mormon calendar, and concluded that the first of the year was in February http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1397&index=8

 

Lund writes:

"In the Eastern Mesoamerica coastal region, the average temperature on April 1st is 88 degrees. The Book of Mormon reports that Amalickiah camped in tents, "on the beach by the seashore" (Alma 51:32). In the northern climates around Rochester New York, the average temprature for April 1st is 42 degrees with the evening minimum temperature at freezing. The heat of the day is a phrase that best applies to Mesoamerica for late March and early April..." One wouldn't wear loin clothes to battle in tempratures like this, then complain it was to hot. If it was in North America, they should be mentioning how cold it was.

 

More interesting points can be found in Alma 14:8-23 when Alma and Amulek had their clothes taken from them, bound with cords and suffered "many days". Alma 10:6 sets the date as the 4th day 7th month, or around the beginning of October, end of September (lunar calendar). They were delivered from the prison on the "twelfth day in the tenth month" (Alma 14:23). That is about 96 days in prison, and corresponds to around the first week in January. If the BOM happened in N. America, the temp that they would have to endure would be, for the first week of January, a high of 31 degrees, and a low of 19 degrees. They would have surely died from exposure. But in Mesoamerica, the lowest temp would be in the mid-sixties. It would be cold, but survivable.

 

Enos who lived between 544 bc and 421 bc described the Lamanites as "wandering about the wilderness with a short girdle about their loins and their heads shaven" (Enos 1:25)

Around 178 bc, Zeniff said of the Lamanites dress "And they had their heads shaven and they were naked; and they were girded with a leathern girdle about their loins" Mosiah 10:8

In 87 bc said  "the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins" Alma 3:4-5

74 bc "they were naked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins, yea all were naked save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites" Alma 43:20

 

Alma 43:37 "nakedness was exposed"

Alma 44:18 "naked skins and their bare heads"

19 ad 3 Nephi 4:7 "lamb-skin about their loins"

The internal evidence in The Book of Mormon confirms that the Lamanites came to battle year round. Some of the wars lasted for six years and thye were not seasonal, but one continious struggle (Alma 51-62). As previously quoted, the naked and shorn Lamanites came to war in the sixth month (Sept, 3 Nephi 4:7) and the commencement of the year (April), and at the years end (March) (3 Nephi 4:1, 2:17, ALma 56:20). Teancums killing of Amalickiah was on the last day of the first month,March, and on the first day of the new moon near April 1st, they found Amalickiah dead in his own tent (Alma 51:33-37). Supplies are brought to the Stripling warriors of Helaman in the second month (May) (Alma 56:27). And these same groups of young soldiers were fighting in the seventh month (October) (Alma 56:42). Alma records a battle in the eleventh month (Feb. 10th) (Alma 49:1)

The sum of the matter is that the Lamanites came to battle and war dressed in only a loin cloth, and their heads were shaven. This tradition was perpetuated for centuries. They came to battle in Feb. March, April, May, Sept, and Oct. as specifically mentioned in the BOM, and some wars lasted for years. It is doubtful these battles took place in a climate not conducive to nakedness and loinclothes. Feb. in New York with loincloths is a stretch for the most avid adherent to the Canadian border believers. Year-round loincloths in Mesoamerica are a well established fact. When the explorer John Lloyd Stevens first arrived in Mesoamerica he made some preliminary observations: "The Indians were naked, except a small piece of cotton cloth around the loins, and crossing in front between the legs" It was November 1839.

 

 

 

What are your beliefs on South America? Do you believe BOM events took place in that area as well?

I may go into the climate a little deeper with you to hash out my own beliefs on it for criticism. You've got a good head on your shoulders and enjoy our conversations.

Yes he did.  That's entirely my point.  Orson Pratt, Joseph Smith and all the others placed events both in N. America and Mesoamerica.  There was no LGT.  Meldrum is wrong, and so is Sorenson.  Yes, I believe S. America became and was predominantly Lamanite lands.

[USU78]

Yes he did.  That's entirely my point.  Orson Pratt, Joseph Smith and all the others placed events both in N. America and Mesoamerica.  There was no LGT.  Meldrum is wrong, and so is Sorenson.  Yes, I believe S. America became and was predominantly Lamanite lands.

 

By "N. America" you mean to include Mejico?

[Sevenbak]

Bob, I was speaking to Sevenbank.

 

The point of the Orson Pratt comment is that ANYONE can find a past Prophet or Apostle to support their specific BOM geography. They are/were welcome to believe any geography that they liked and so there were as many opinions back then about where the events of the BOM took place as there are now. There is so much contradiction because people are left to their own studies and don't have revelation from the Lord where the main events of the BOM took place. So I can find quotes which contradict your theory and you can find quotes to contradict mine. The LGT can find quotes to contradict the HGT and the HGT can find quotes to contradict LGT. By only quoting past leaders to support your theory is futile because there is no harmony of thought among them. If we want to locate BOM lands the best way to do that is to stick to the BOM and find geographical and cultural similarities between BOM and ancient cultures.

No, that's not the point.  There are so many prophets and apostles that support Joseph's view, but I dare say that not anyone can find a supporting statement limiting the Nephite lands to such a small geographical area as proposed by the Sorenson model.  

[ERayR]

Yes he did.  That's entirely my point.  Orson Pratt, Joseph Smith and all the others placed events both in N. America and Mesoamerica.  There was no LGT.  Meldrum is wrong, and so is Sorenson.  Yes, I believe S. America became and was predominantly Lamanite lands.

 

Distances are too great.