Elder Ballard On The Proper Name Of The Church

[SeekingUnderstanding]

The quibble over the calendar day of Christ's birth and whether a General Authority read this or that scholarly treatise before he prepared his conference talk pales in comparison...

 

If that was what the other thread was about, you might have a point.

[Gray]

This point has already been responded to.

 

For the sake of search engine optimization, there will be occasions when the phrase "Mormon Church" appears on Church websites. This is a tradeoff to give the Church sites prominence in Internet searches as they compete with anti-Mormon sites for visibility on the Internet.

 

I even provided a quote from Elder Ballard that addressed this point. Here it is again:

 

(Emphsis mine)

 

"LDS Church" was also used in a recent talk. 

 

I do understand the need for search engine optimization. There is such a thing as conversation optimization, too. 

Edited April 11, 2014 by Gray

[Scott Lloyd]

"LDS Church" was also used in a recent talk. 

 

Hence, the need for the occasional reminder -- such as in Elder Ballard's talk -- I suppose.

 

I do understand the need for search engine optimization. There is such a thing as conversation optimization, too.

 

 

I can think of no greater optimizer of a conversation than accuracy -- including accurate use of names as identifiers.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

If that was what the other thread was about, you might have a point.

I haven't followed the other thread closely enough to know how the discussion there has developed or evolved. I've glanced at it a bit, and I read the first post, which did little other than provide links and make an accusation of teaching false doctrine.

 

I was speaking to the complaint about one General Authority repeating a long-held and, until recently, rarely questioned belief. I'm saying that does not register much on the pertain-to-salvation scale as compared to proclaiming to the world the mission of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as conveyed by the name of the Church, which was given by Christ Himself through revelation.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Paddy]

I have read through this thread and now I think I have nailed down the rules:

1. Generally the full name of the church should be used: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. However it is important to emphasis the hyphen and the lower case d to ensure others are not confused with other branches of the restoration movement.

Exceptions are as follows:

1. When speaking with other members you can use: the full name of the church, “the church”, “LDS Church”, ”Mormon Church”, or the “the Latter-day Saints Church”, however these terms are discouraged
2. When referring to members of the church with other members you can use: “members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, “Latter-day Saints”, or “Mormons”
3. When speaking to the media use: full name of the Church, then subsequence use can be contracted to “the Church” or “the Church of Jesus Christ”
4. When speaking to the media in reference the members use: : “members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, “Latter-day Saints”, or “Mormons”
5. When speaking to non members use: the full name of the church, “the Church” or “the Church of Jesus Christ”
6. When speaking to people or referencing things on the internet use: full name of the Church, then subsequence use can be contracted to “the Church” or “the Church of Jesus Christ”. However it is also acceptable to simply use the term “Mormon” but this only applies to the internet.
7. When speaking to others outside the US (and only in some circumstances) the term “Mormon” can be acceptable.

I am wondering if I have missed anything or if I have these rules wrong…?? 

[wtrdog]

Ballard probably saw the results of a survey which said the name "mormon" carries a bad connotation.  A few months ago a guy by the name of Gary Lawrence came and had a fireside for our stake.  He's a professional pollster.  I think he's "the" pollster for the church.  I know he did all the polling related to Proposition 8.  He spent two hours teaching us about the results of various surveys he's done and how outsiders perceive "mormons," gave suggestions on how to do our part to overcome bad perceptions about the church.  As I recall, the word "mormon" having a negative connotation came up.  I actually recorded the fireside, so if someone wants I can post an MP3 somewhere.

[rodheadlee]

I can't believe how hard headed we as a group of people are. I used to think the Hebrews that followed Moses out of Egypt were a bunch of idiots for some of the stuff they said and did. We got nothing on them, we are a bunch of stiff necked people. The name of the Church has been revealed by Jesus Christ himself and our prophets have asked us to follow his command. What is the problem? Unbelievers I get, they have no witness that this is His Church. 

Edited April 12, 2014 by rodheadlee

[Thinking]

I have read through this thread and now I think I have nailed down the rules:

1. Generally the full name of the church should be used: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. However it is important to emphasis the hyphen and the lower case d to ensure others are not confused with other branches of the restoration movement.

Exceptions are as follows:

1. When speaking with other members you can use: the full name of the church, “the church”, “LDS Church”, ”Mormon Church”, or the “the Latter-day Saints Church”, however these terms are discouraged
2. When referring to members of the church with other members you can use: “members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, “Latter-day Saints”, or “Mormons”
3. When speaking to the media use: full name of the Church, then subsequence use can be contracted to “the Church” or “the Church of Jesus Christ”
4. When speaking to the media in reference the members use: : “members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, “Latter-day Saints”, or “Mormons”
5. When speaking to non members use: the full name of the church, “the Church” or “the Church of Jesus Christ”
6. When speaking to people or referencing things on the internet use: full name of the Church, then subsequence use can be contracted to “the Church” or “the Church of Jesus Christ”. However it is also acceptable to simply use the term “Mormon” but this only applies to the internet.
7. When speaking to others outside the US (and only in some circumstances) the term “Mormon” can be acceptable.

I am wondering if I have missed anything or if I have these rules wrong…?? 

 

I have it on good authority that similar questions to these statements have been added to the temple recommend questions. No member will be admitted into the temple who cannot identify the Church correctly in different situations.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Thinking

[Paddy]

I have it on good authority that similar questions to these statements have been added to the temple recommend questions. No member will be admitted into the temple who cannot identify the Church correctly in different situations.

 

These were my cliff notes so i could study before the interview....

[Bikeemikey]

These were my cliff notes so i could study before the interview....

Awesome!

[Bikeemikey]

Ballard probably saw the results of a survey which said the name "mormon" carries a bad connotation.  A few months ago a guy by the name of Gary Lawrence came and had a fireside for our stake.  He's a professional pollster.  I think he's "the" pollster for the church.  I know he did all the polling related to Proposition 8.  He spent two hours teaching us about the results of various surveys he's done and how outsiders perceive "mormons," gave suggestions on how to do our part to overcome bad perceptions about the church.  As I recall, the word "mormon" having a negative connotation came up.  I actually recorded the fireside, so if someone wants I can post an MP3 somewhere.

The Pew surveys conducted during mitt Romneys run for pres were great as well.

[Scott Lloyd]

Ballard probably saw the results of a survey which said the name "mormon" carries a bad connotation.  A few months ago a guy by the name of Gary Lawrence came and had a fireside for our stake.  He's a professional pollster.  I think he's "the" pollster for the church.  I know he did all the polling related to Proposition 8.  He spent two hours teaching us about the results of various surveys he's done and how outsiders perceive "mormons," gave suggestions on how to do our part to overcome bad perceptions about the church.  As I recall, the word "mormon" having a negative connotation came up.  I actually recorded the fireside, so if someone wants I can post an MP3 somewhere.

I'm acquainted with Gary Lawrence. I've heard him speak and conversed with him. I remember him saying that there was a lot of misunderstanding pertaining to the Church and its members, but I don't recall that he recommended that we not use the word Mormon at all.

 

The guidelines were given by the First Presidency and the Twelve more than a decade ago, years before Lawrence was ever hired.

 

The word Mormon is acceptable in referring to Church members or things pertaining the Church. But it shouldn't be substituted for the name of the Church. For example, it is OK to speak of Mormons, the Mormon faith, the Mormon people, Mormonism, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, the Mormon pioneers, the Mormon Trail.

 

But the Brethren have asked us to avoid calling it "the Mormon Church." The proper name of the Church, given to us by Jesus Christ through revelation, is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And, in addressing Lehi's descendants, the resurrected Christ emphasized the importance of calling the Church by His name rather than the name of someone else.

 

If you look through this thread, you'll find this explained repeatedly.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I have read through this thread and now I think I have nailed down the rules:

• Generally the full name of the church should be used: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. However it is important to emphasis the hyphen and the lower case d to ensure others are not confused with other branches of the restoration movement.

Exceptions are as follows:

• When speaking with other members you can use: the full name of the church, “the church”, “LDS Church”, ”Mormon Church”, or the “the Latter-day Saints Church”, however these terms are discouraged
• When referring to members of the church with other members you can use: “members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, “Latter-day Saints”, or “Mormons”
• When speaking to the media use: full name of the Church, then subsequence use can be contracted to “the Church” or “the Church of Jesus Christ”
• When speaking to the media in reference the members use: : “members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, “Latter-day Saints”, or “Mormons”
• When speaking to non members use: the full name of the church, “the Church” or “the Church of Jesus Christ”
• When speaking to people or referencing things on the internet use: full name of the Church, then subsequence use can be contracted to “the Church” or “the Church of Jesus Christ”. However it is also acceptable to simply use the term “Mormon” but this only applies to the internet.
• When speaking to others outside the US (and only in some circumstances) the term “Mormon” can be acceptable.

I am wondering if I have missed anything or if I have these rules wrong…??

Well, I suppose we can compare your intentionally convoluted and largely inaccurate rendition with how I explained it back in post #23 on page 2 of this thread:

Here again is the policy (and I'm prepared to re-explain it as many times as it takes to get people to understand:

1. It is the expressed desire of the Brethren that we refer to the Church itself by its full and complete name (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) or, if a shortened form is needed, the Church of Jesus Christ [or the Church].

2. When referring to the members themselves, it is acceptable to call them Mormons or Latter-day Saints or "the Mormon people," etc.

3. It is acceptable to use the name Mormon to refer to things pertaining to the Church, such as the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, the Mormon pioneers and the Mormon Trail.

Now then, perhaps someone can explain to me why it is so difficult for so many to grasp the above.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I can't believe how hard headed we as a group of people are. I used to think the Hebrews that followed Moses out of Egypt were a bunch of idiots for some of the stuff they said and did. We got nothing on them, we are a bunch of stiff necked people. The name of the Church has been revealed by Jesus Christ himself and our prophets have asked us to follow his command. What is the problem? Unbelievers I get, they have no witness that this is His Church. 

Well, perhaps Joshua said it best:

 

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

I have it on good authority that similar questions to these statements have been added to the temple recommend questions. No member will be admitted into the temple who cannot identify the Church correctly in different situations.

Yes the Church leaders have been so heavy-handed and oppressive in enforcing these guidelines that some people, it would appear, were under the false impression they had been dropped until Elder Ballard gave this gentle reminder at the recent general conference.

[wtrdog]

I'm acquainted with Gary Lawrence. I've heard him speak and conversed with him. I remember him saying that there was a lot of misunderstanding pertaining to the Church and its members, but I don't recall that he recommended that we not use the word Mormon at all.

 

The guidelines were given by the First Presidency and the Twelve more than a decade ago, years before Lawrence was ever hired.

 

The word Mormon is acceptable in referring to Church members or things pertaining the Church. But it shouldn't be substituted for the name of the Church. For example, it is OK to speak of Mormons, the Mormon faith, the Mormon people, Mormonism, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, the Mormon pioneers, the Mormon Trail.

 

But the Brethren have asked us to avoid calling it "the Mormon Church." The proper name of the Church, given to us by Jesus Christ through revelation, is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And, in addressing Lehi's descendants, the resurrected Christ emphasized the importance of calling the Church by His name rather than the name of someone else.

 

Didn't say he said to "not use it at all".  I just remember it coming up.  I'd have to go listen to the fireside again, don't remember exactly what he said.  There are some bad associations with the name though.  And some good ones too.  Ballard's remarks weren't very clear on this matter and took away from his talk I thought.

 

If you look through this thread, you'll find this explained repeatedly.

 

 

Are you talking to me?  

[Scott Lloyd]

Didn't say he said to "not use it at all".  I just remember it coming up.  I'd have to go listen to the fireside again, don't remember exactly what he said.  There are some bad associations with the name though.  And some good ones too.  

Just as Moroni prophesied that Joseph Smith's name would be both good and evil spoken of, I suppose anything connected with the Church of Jesus Christ, including a common nickname, will be both good and evil spoken of.

 

Ballard's remarks weren't very clear on this matter and took away from his talk I thought.

 

 

Here's what he said:

 

 

In the October 2011 conference, I urged that we remember these important words of the Lord: “For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”¹

With these words, the Lord makes clear that this is not only a formal title but also the name by which His Church is to be called. Given His clear declaration, we should not refer to the Church by any other name, such as “Mormon Church” or “LDS Church.”

The term Mormon can be appropriately used in some contexts to refer to members of the Church, such as Mormon pioneers, or to institutions, such as the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Church members are widely known as Mormons, and in interactions with those not of our faith, we may fittingly refer to ourselves as Mormons, provided we couple this with the full name of the Church.

If members learn to use the correct name of the Church in connection with the word Mormon, it will underscore that we are Christians, members of the Savior’s Church.

Brothers and sisters, let us follow up and develop the habit of always making it clear that we belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Seems quite clear to me.

 

As for it taking away from his talk, I completely disagree.

 

His talk was on missionary work. As I've said previously on this thread, part of missionary work is making known far and wide the identity and character of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as that is the instrument by which Heavenly Father brings salvation to His children in this latter-day dispensation, and they can't receive the blessings it has to offer without knowing what it is.

 

Are you talking to me?   

 

To any to whom it might be of interest.

[DBMormon]

As reiterated by Elder Ballard, the Church leaders have asked us not to use that in place of the proper name of the Church. Did you read my opening post?

 

That is what the Church professes to be, whether you declare it presumptuous or not. And it is so identified by Jesus Christ Himself.

 

The Church leaders have said it is acceptable as a shortened form for the formal name of the Church. It is their province to do so.

 

Are you going to be the word police and remind us each time we error?

[rodheadlee]

In all fairness, Mormons don't worship Christ either, at least not in the way other Christian religions do.

We don't pray to Christ.  We revere, respect and honor Christ, but we worship the Father.  We perform our ordinances unto God (in Christ's name).

Even Christ said to call none good except the father (Matt 19:17) and set the worship example by praying to the Father.

And yet we spend our lives trying to be just like Him. Jesus Christ is our ultimate role model. That is a form of worship.

Edited April 13, 2014 by rodheadlee

[Tacenda]

And yet we spend our lives trying to be just like Him. Jesus Christ is our ultimate role model. That is a form of worship.

Yeah, I can't believe those words came out of his mouth. Wait till an EV reads that!

If it is the case that we don't worship Christ, then basically we're not worshipping God, because like some on here say, He is the God of this world. And that is in line with the Christian way of thinking, that Jesus is God.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Tacenda

[Five Solas]

Elder Ballard's general conference address was directed primarily to Church members who would have no trouble understanding him on the matter. Likewise, my emphasis of his message was directed primarily to Church members on this board.

If so, then this thread is much about little.  I would have thought Elder Ballard had more in mind than mere LDS to LDS communication protocol.  But as that's all *you* had in mind and you're the author of this thread--l apologize for my bad inference.  In doing so I note you could have made yourself more clear from the outset and saved us all some time.  I also note not everyone believes Ballard's intentions are so limited in scope as yours (post 181 is example--yes, I saw you made some response).

 

--Erik 

[mfbukowski]

Are you going to be the word police and remind us each time we error?

Uh, that would be "err".

 

[Scott Lloyd]

Are you going to be the word police and remind us each time we error?

For reasons I have already articulated on this thread and that have been voiced by Elder Ballard and by Church sources (Handbook 2 and elsewhere), this is a matter of greater import than merely the mechanics of language.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

If so, then this thread is much about little.  I would have thought Elder Ballard had more in mind than mere LDS to LDS communication protocol.  But as that's all *you* had in mind and you're the author of this thread--l apologize for my bad inference.  In doing so I note you could have made yourself more clear from the outset and saved us all some time.  I also note not everyone believes Ballard's intentions are so limited in scope as yours (post 181 is example--yes, I saw you made some response).

 

--Erik 

If this thread is a waste of your time, I would strongly suggest you don't bother replying to it.

 

In fact, you don't even have to click on it and read it. I would not care in the least if you don't.

[Scott Lloyd]

Uh, that would be "err".

 

 

You're being a word policeman. Stop it, I say. Stop it this instant.