Elder Ballard On The Proper Name Of The Church

[mfbukowski]

Yeah, it would be a bummer if your ward members kept thinking you were talking about the Catholic Church.

You're right.

We should call it THE Church of Jesus Christ, and then everyone would get it right. 

[mfbukowski]

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.- GB Shaw

 

It is a great quote... how do you practically implement it in a way that doesn't create total chaos? I have no idea.

It's a wonderful quote, because really we are all unreasonable and driven by irrational desires.

 

And indeed, all progress does depend on us being unreasonable.

 

None of us are Mr Spock, thank God. 

 

Even God cries.

 

And indeed if we did not try to adapt the world to ourselves, we would never build houses, or computers or anything else.  We would be grunting looking for fruit in the jungle and not even planting crops.

 

Reason is for figuring out how to satisfy the emotions.

 

"It's cold and wet out here - it feels good to be warm and dry.  Hmmmm- maybe I could crawl under these leaves, or better yet, break these branches off and put them this way....."

 

That's the first step to Trump Tower !

Edited April 10, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

.

And indeed if we did not try to adapt the world to ourselves, we would never build houses, or computers or anything else. We would be grunting looking for fruit in the jungle and not even planting crops.

Reason is for figuring out how to satisfy the emotions.

"It's cold and wet out here - it feels good to be warm and dry. Hmmmm- maybe I could crawl under these leaves, or better yet, break these branches off and put them this way....."

That's the first step to Trump Tower !

Was reading the 2 nd edition of Ash's Shaken Faith Syndrome and he mentions one theory that we have two mental decision making processes, the first a quick, intuitive, more emotional one that is commonly used and a second, more reluctant, more in depth analytical one.

The interesting thing is that people with emotional dysfunction (including the absence of emotion) arent as good at making good decisions as those with full emotions available.

Emotions are a necessary part of reasoning.

Edited April 10, 2014 by calmoriah

[stemelbow]

COJCLDS is not that hard to write.

lol

[Scott Lloyd]

The emphasis put on the use the full name of the church is to illustrate to folks we are Christian. With that in mind, it does not seem necessary to write the full name out on this forum. I will stick with Mormon Church or The Church when I post.

Ditch the first and stick with the second, and you'll be fine.

 

Not everyone coming here is acquainted with the Church of Jesus Christ. If not, it is good to help them understand it is not properly called "the Mormon Church."

Edited April 10, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree -- the Church Fathers certainly had some truth to share, which is unfortunately often contrary to the beliefs of our protestant brothers and sisters.

 

 

I haven't read too far yet. But Clement is my favorite so far. He rocks!

 

 

He was clearly Mormon.

Well maybe not so clearly, but he is so dang close, to me his beliefs are great evidence that our beliefs were there and already going under.

There's a great quote from Clement I've been dying to use since DBMormon started his "False Doctrine" thread a couple days ago, hyperventilating about a General Authority at conference repeating a long-held belief that Jesus was born on April 6:

 

Ye are fond of contention, brethren, and full of zeal about things which do not pertain to salvation.

 

It sounds like it could have been uttered in a stake conference session or a priesthood meeting. In fact, how many times have we heard that very expression used among our own people: "What does it matter? It doesn't pertain to our salvation."

 

Yes, I agree with you about Clement sounding very Mormon.

 

Edited to add:

 

In fact, coincidentally enough,  I see that you yourself used that very expression this very evening in the very thread I'm talking about!

 

You said (verily shouted):

 

IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE TO OUR SALVATION OR ANYTHING ELSE! IT IS NOT IMPORTANT!

 

Could there be any clearer example of Clement having been one of us centuries before our time?

 

You may go back to DBMormon's thread and use that Clement quote, if you like.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

There's a great quote from Clement I've been dying to use since DBMormon started his "False Doctrine" thread a couple days ago, hyperventilating about a General Authority at conference repeating a long-held belief that Jesus was born on April 6:

 

It sounds like it could have been uttered in a stake conference session or a priesthood meeting. In fact, how many times have we heard that very expression used among our own people: "What does it matter? It doesn't pertain to our salvation."

 

Yes, I agree with you about Clement sounding very Mormon.

 

Edited to add:

 

In fact, coincidentally enough,  I see that you yourself used that very expression this very evening in the very thread I'm talking about!

 

You said (verily shouted):

 

Could there be any clearer example of Clement having been one of us centuries before our time?

 

You may go back to DBMormon's thread and use that Clement quote, if you like.

Yes, and of course I fully agree.  Well said

 

I would repost it there if it would make a difference, but it would not

[omni]

Biggest offenders? I highly doubt that. I've worked for the Deseret News for nearly 29 years, so I tend to be aware of such things. It seems to me it has been a good long while since I've seen the phrase "Mormon Church" in copy generated by the Deseret News. One is more likely to see "LDS Church," but that is largely because of the exigencies of layout: It's short enough to fit into a headline space and it's hard to find an alternative.

 

 

 

I never specified "Mormon Church" realizing this would be a rarely used, however, I doubt there are many newspapers/news websites that use the term "LDS Church" more than Deseret News and KSL.com.  The reasoning for the usage of these terms in media is well-understood which is why I'm confused about the brethren's (and your) position on this issue.

 

 

 

I'm curious though. Through an Internet search can you find the latest instance in which "Mormon Church" appeared in Deseret News content in something other than a wire story or a syndicated feature not generated in-house?

 

 

Yes actually, right here.  Once again though, I'm concerned primarily with the term "LDS Church" as I've always understood this to be the respectful, short-hand way of referring to the church.

 

In my ward, I'm not apt to say "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" or "the Church of Jesus Christ" in sacrament meeting. I simply say "the Church" and everyone knows what I'm talking about.

 

 

The same for me.  However, "the Church" generally makes sense only when when speaking to other LDS.  I'll say "the Church" when speaking to fellow members, "LDS Church" when speaking to a mixed group of LDS/non-LDS while in Utah (as most everyone here understands the term), and quite frankly I can't remember the last time I've used "Mormon Church". 

Edited April 10, 2014 by omni

[Gray]

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/reflections-on-a-consecrated-life?lang=eng&query=lds+church

 

 

As a youth I visited the 1964 World’s Fair in New York City. One of my favorite stops was the LDS Church pavilion with its impressive replica of the Salt Lake Temple spires. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

There's a great quote from Clement I've been dying to use since DBMormon started his "False Doctrine" thread a couple days ago, hyperventilating about a General Authority at conference repeating a long-held belief that Jesus was born on April 6:

Ye are fond of contention, brethren, and full of zeal about things which do not pertain to salvation.

It sounds like it could have been uttered in a stake conference session or a priesthood meeting. In fact, how many times have we heard that very expression used among our own people: "What does it matter? It doesn't pertain to our salvation."

 

Yes, I agree with you about Clement sounding very Mormon.

 

Edited to add:

 

In fact, coincidentally enough,  I see that you yourself used that very expression this very evening in the very thread I'm talking about!

 

You said (verily shouted):

 

Could there be any clearer example of Clement having been one of us centuries before our time?

 

You may go back to DBMormon's thread and use that Clement quote, if you like.

It is somewhat ironic to me that you think the Clement quote about "Ye are fond of contention, brethren, and full of zeal about things which do not pertain to salvation." applies to a long thread about what is revealed doctrine, but doesn't apply here in an eight page thread about not using the term "Mormon Church."

[rodheadlee]

We don't worship Mormon.

[Scott Lloyd]

It is somewhat ironic to me that you think the Clement quote about "Ye are fond of contention, brethren, and full of zeal about things which do not pertain to salvation." applies to a long thread about what is revealed doctrine, but doesn't apply here in an eight page thread about not using the term "Mormon Church."

Ah yes, I rather expected this would come up.

 

The subject chosen by Elder Ballard may not pertain directly to salvation, but it is important enough that Elder Ballard has spoken of it on at least two occasions, that the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve have taken an official public position on it, that it has been codified in the Church's Handbook 2 and that the official Church website, among other documents, continues to give it as a guide to those who are writing about the Church.

 

Moreover, the Brethren have stated why it is important. From the Handbook entry:

 

As the Church grows across boundaries, cultures, and languages, the use of its revealed name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (see D&C 115:4), is increasingly important in the responsibility of the Church and its members to proclaim the name of the Savior throughout all the world.

 

And Elder Ballard, in a prior general conference address, has delineated the important truths that are conveyed by use of the proper name of the Church. Here again is his analysis:

 

I have thought a lot about why the Savior gave the nine-word name to His restored Church. It may seem long, but if we think of it as a descriptive overview of what the Church is, it suddenly becomes wonderfully brief, candid, and straightforward. How could any description be more direct and clear and yet expressed in such few words?

Every word is clarifying and indispensable. The word The indicates the unique position of the restored Church among the religions of the world.

The words Church of Jesus Christ declare that it is His Church. In the Book of Mormon, Jesus taught: “And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man [like Mormon] then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel” (3 Nephi 27:8).

Of Latter-day explains that it is the same Church as the Church that Jesus Christ established during His mortal ministry but restored in these latter days. We know there was a falling away, or an apostasy, necessitating the Restoration of His true and complete Church in our time.

Saints means that its members follow Him and strive to do His will, keep His commandments, and prepare once again to live with Him and our Heavenly Father in the future. Saint simply refers to those who seek to make their lives holy by covenanting to follow Christ.

The name the Savior has given to His Church tells us exactly who we are and what we believe. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior and the Redeemer of the world. He atoned for all who would repent of their sins, and He broke the bands of death and provided the resurrection from the dead. We follow Jesus Christ. And as King Benjamin said to his people, so I reaffirm to all of us today: “Ye should remember to retain [His] name written always in your hearts” (Mosiah 5:12).

 

As for the length of the thread, that is largely due to the fact that I have felt the need to correct erroneous assumptions and conclusions that keep cropping up regarding the directive given by the Brethren and to refute weak reasoning as to why it should be dismissed or ignored.

 

Afterthought:

 

It occurs to me that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's instrument for bringing salvation to His children in this last dispensation. That being the case, it is vital that the true and correct identity of His Church be made known far and wide. The inhabitants of the earth cannot avail themselves of the blessings it has to offer until they know what it is and understand its true character.

 

I will therefore amend my second sentence in this post and say that this matter pertains very much to the salvation of Heavenly Fathers children. I thus make no apology nor do I beg anyone's pardon for emphasizing it.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

There has been more than one expression of annoyance with me for carrying on this thread so long. I find that rather remarkable.

 

As I've said, beyond the statement in my opening post, I have done nothing more than respond to posts, try to correct erroneous assumptions and false conclusions, and to refute weak reasoning. Therefore, others are just as responsible as am I for the length of the thread.

 

But If you are determined to ignore and dismiss the instruction of the Brethren in this matter, go ahead. No one and nothing is stopping you.

 

Similarly, if you are determined to ignore my underscoring of it, you are more than welcome to do so.

 

But by endeavoring to shout me down, you are taking an aggressive rather than a passive stance. It is as though you intend not just to dismiss it yourself but are trying to get others to do so as well.

 

To that, I say I have just as much right to encourage others to pay attention to and take seriously what the Church leaders have expressed with regard to this matter as you do to try to get others to ignore and dismiss it.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

It's hard to tell if you are so profoundly insulting intentionally or by ignorance.

Either way, it doesn't say much in your favor.

I regarded it as a confirmation that I was on the right track when Erik came forth to ridicule me for it.

 

Moreover, when engaged in a disagreement with professed Latter-day Saints, I would find it more than a little unsettling if he showed up to support me.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Five Solas]

This has already been answered on this thread. It is easy enough to get the correct meaning from context, especially when the formal name of the Church occurs in the spoken or written discourse, preferably near the beginning. As I said, I myself frequently use on this board the shortened form Church of Jesus Christ to refer to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. To date no one has appeared in the least confused as to my meaning.

You make my point better than I do, Scott.  Folks on this board wouldn't be confused because folks here have at least some understanding of the LDS Church, its organization, truth claims, doctrines, policies, and the seemingly unending controversy over which is what (e.g., doctrine vs. policy, "speaking as a man" vs. revelaltion from God). 

 

Can you imagine not knowing about the LDS Church and stumbling on to this site?  A "NOM"--what on earth are these people arguing about?!?  Unless you had a compelling reason to be interested, your attention wouldn't survive 10 minutes. 

;0)

 

Also, you have a bad habit of alleging questions have been answered without providing any references (your posts # 117, 131, 133 ).  Let's please work on that...

 

--Erik

Edited April 11, 2014 by Five Solas

[JLHPROF]

We don't worship Mormon.

 

In all fairness, Mormons don't worship Christ either, at least not in the way other Christian religions do.

We don't pray to Christ.  We revere, respect and honor Christ, but we worship the Father.  We perform our ordinances unto God (in Christ's name).

Even Christ said to call none good except the father (Matt 19:17) and set the worship example by praying to the Father.

[Five Solas]

I regarded it as a confirmation that I was on the right track when Eric came forth to ridicule me for it.

 

Moreover, when engaged in a disagreement with professed Latter-day Saints, I would find it more than a little unsettling if he showed up to support me.

At least spell my name right.  Good night, Scott

 

--Erik

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Ah yes, I rather expected this would come up.

 

The subject chosen by Elder Ballard may not pertain directly to salvation, but it is important enough that Elder Ballard has spoken of it on at least two occasions, that the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve have taken an official public position on it, that it has been codified in the Church's Handbook 2 and that the official Church website, among other documents, continues to give it as a guide to those who are writing about the Church.

 

Moreover, the Brethren have stated why it is important. From the Handbook entry:

 

And Elder Ballard, in a prior general conference address, has delineated the important truths that are conveyed by use of the proper name of the Church. Here again is his analysis:

 

As for the length of the thread, that is largely due to the fact that I have felt the need to correct erroneous assumptions and conclusions that keep cropping up regarding the directive given by the Brethren and to refute weak reasoning as to why it should be dismissed or ignored.

 

Afterthought:

 

It occurs to me that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's instrument for bringing salvation to His children in this last dispensation. That being the case, it is vital that the true and correct identity of His Church be made known far and wide. The inhabitants of the earth cannot avail themselves of the blessings it has to offer until they know what it is and understand its true character.

 

I will therefore amend my second sentence in this post and say that this matter pertains very much to the salvation of Heavenly Fathers children. I thus make no apology nor do I beg anyone's pardon for emphasizing it.

You missed my point. The irony is in the hypocrisy. This very small point may be worth the contention to you. I'm not the one saying that other posters are "fond of contention ... and full of zeal about things which do not pertain to salvation." My point is that if this thread is worth the effort, then certainly a thread that seeks for leaders not to declare doctrine by revelation when there is no revelation is certainly worth the effort.

[Gray]

http://www.mormon.org/

 

"Locate a Mormon Church close by"

[Scott Lloyd]

http://www.mormon.org/

 

"Locate a Mormon Church close by"

This point has already been responded to.

 

For the sake of search engine optimization, there will be occasions when the phrase "Mormon Church" appears on Church websites. This is a tradeoff to give the Church sites prominence in Internet searches as they compete with anti-Mormon sites for visibility on the Internet.

 

I even provided a quote from Elder Ballard that addressed this point. Here it is again:

 

Some may ask, what about the Internet sites such as Mormon.org as well as various Church-initiated media campaigns? As I said, referring collectively to members as Mormons is sometimes appropriate. As a practical matter, those outside of our faith come looking for us searching for that term. But once you open up Mormon.org, the proper name of the Church is explained on the home page, and it appears on each additional page on the site. It is impractical to expect people to type the full name of the Church when seeking to find us or when logging on to our website.

While these practicalities may continue, they should not keep members from using the full name of the Church whenever possible. Let us develop the habit within our families and our Church activities and our daily interactions of making it clear that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the name by which the Lord Himself has directed that we be known.

 

(Emphasis mine)

Edited April 11, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

You missed my point. The irony is in the hypocrisy. This very small point may be worth the contention to you. I'm not the one saying that other posters are "fond of contention ... and full of zeal about things which do not pertain to salvation." My point is that if this thread is worth the effort, then certainly a thread that seeks for leaders not to declare doctrine by revelation when there is no revelation is certainly worth the effort.

I don't agree there has been hypocrisy, and I reject your accusation.

 

The quibble over the calendar day of Christ's birth and whether a General Authority read this or that scholarly treatise before he prepared his conference talk pales in comparison to the imperative of making certain the true identity and character of the Church is made known far and wide as we seek to further the Church's mission of bringing salvation to the souls of Heavenly Father's children.

[Scott Lloyd]

You make my point better than I do, Scott.  Folks on this board wouldn't be confused because folks here have at least some understanding of the LDS Church, its organization, truth claims, doctrines, policies, and the seemingly unending controversy over which is what (e.g., doctrine vs. policy, "speaking as a man" vs. revelaltion from God). 

 

Elder Ballard's general conference address was directed primarily to Church members who would have no trouble understanding him on the matter. Likewise, my emphasis of his message was directed primarily to Church members on this board.

 

Can you imagine not knowing about the LDS Church and stumbling on to this site?  A "NOM"--what on earth are these people arguing about?!?  Unless you had a compelling reason to be interested, your attention wouldn't survive 10 minutes. 

;0)

 

 

I don't believe a typically intelligent non-Mormon who was interested enough to even look at the thread in the first place would have much trouble getting the drift after reading through a number of posts. And in any case, so what? The message is directed to Latter-day Saints.

 

Moreover, if such a hypothetical non-Mormon were to ask for clarification, I would be more than happy to provide it. You see, I have no problem with taking time to type out the full, formal name of the Church and explaining to individuals the significance behind the name, which was given by Christ Himself through revelation.

 

 

Also, you have a bad habit of alleging questions have been answered without providing any references (your posts # 117, 131, 133 ).  Let's please work on that...

 

In each of those posts, I spoke the truth: The points raised had indeed already been addressed. And in each case, I went on to repeat and/or paraphrase the answer or explanation that had already been given. That's more reader-friendly than sending somebody to search back through the thread for a post number -- as you did here.

 

I point it out to show that the same arguments are getting raised over and over again without any cognizance being taken of answers and explanations that have already been given.

 

You don't establish truth by doing that.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

At least spell my name right.  Good night, Scott

 

--Erik

I beg your pardon. I have corrected my post.

[toon]

I think it's funny that every so often there needs to be a GC talk about the proper name of the church. I wonder if the GA who gets this assignment says to himself, "Really? Can't somebody else talk about this? We will always be called Mormons. Nothing I say in GC will change that."

 

It's better than a talk about wearing white shirts and ties.

[Scott Lloyd]

In all fairness, Mormons don't worship Christ either, at least not in the way other Christian religions do.

We don't pray to Christ.  We revere, respect and honor Christ, but we worship the Father.  We perform our ordinances unto God (in Christ's name).

Even Christ said to call none good except the father (Matt 19:17) and set the worship example by praying to the Father.

Be that as it may, we don't belong to a Church that was started by Mormon either.