Elder Ballard On The Proper Name Of The Church

[MiserereNobis]

I wish the Pope, or at least the prefect of one of the Divine Congregations, would come out and remind us that our Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  But dang, Roman Catholic is so much easier to say

[Scott Lloyd]

Calling the website "Mormon" or "lds" seems to me to fall in the same category as the Choir. It is a website, not the Church itself.

See De Groote's post just below yours.

 

The phrase "Mormon Church" does appear once in a while on the official website for precisely the reason I have given: search engine optimization.

[Scott Lloyd]

So the church runs a whole marketing campaign that collects stories of interesting people and they all finish with them saying, my names xxx and I'm a mormon.

 

As has been pointed out repeatedly, referring to Church members as Mormons is acceptable. The issue is the name of the Church, this because of what Christ Himself commanded. Have I not been clear on this?

 

So saying hi I'm a mormon is fine but then clarifying that this is not the mormon church is necessary?

 

 

Well, to put it more accurately, using the proper name of the Church in conversation, and making certain that people understand what the proper name of the Church is, is the ideal behavior.

 

Sure ill do that coz Ballard wants me to...

 

 

I find it very jarring when professed members of the Church refer to prophets and apostles by surname only.

 

However, he may want to get on the same page as the PR-marketing program (or they may want to get on his page).

 

Did you miss the posts where I and De Groote explained about search engine optimization?

 

Elder Ballard, in fact, made the same point when he spoke on this subject back in October 2011:

 

Some may ask, what about the Internet sites such as Mormon.org as well as various Church-initiated media campaigns? As I said, referring collectively to members as Mormons is sometimes appropriate. As a practical matter, those outside of our faith come looking for us searching for that term. But once you open up Mormon.org, the proper name of the Church is explained on the home page, and it appears on each additional page on the site. It is impractical to expect people to type the full name of the Church when seeking to find us or when logging on to our website.

While these practicalities may continue, they should not keep members from using the full name of the Church whenever possible. Let us develop the habit within our families and our Church activities and our daily interactions of making it clear that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the name by which the Lord Himself has directed that we be known.

 

 

Also, I couldn't careless if people think in Christian. That's really a non-motivator for me. I would rather be known as mormon that Christian.

 

That's up to you, but I and many others are bothered when people spread the falsehood that Mormons are not Christian.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

It is hard to argue that a phrase should only refer to your church when you say it shouldn't be used for your church.

 

Well, here is  how Elder Ballard argued it in a general conference address back in October 2011:

 

Our members have been called Mormons because we believe in the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. Others may try to use the word Mormon more broadly to include and refer to those who have left the Church and formed various splinter groups. Such use only leads to confusion. We are grateful for the efforts of the media to refrain from using the word Mormon in a way that may cause the public to confuse the Church with polygamists or other fundamentalist groups. Let me state clearly that no polygamist group, including those calling themselves fundamentalist Mormons or other derivatives of our name, has any affiliation whatsoever with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

(emphasis mine)

Edited April 7, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Bikeemikey]

As has been pointed out repeatedly, referring to Church members as Mormons is acceptable. The issue is the name of the Church, this because of what Christ Himself commanded. Have I not been clear on this?

 

 

Well, to put it more accurately, using the proper name of the Church in conversation, and making certain that people understand what the proper name of the Church is, is the ideal behavior.

 

 

I find it very jarring when professed members of the Church refer to prophets and apostles by surname only.

 

Did you miss the posts where I and De Groote explained about search engine optimization? If you still don't understand, a respectful question rather then snarky gumbling might serve you better.

 

That's up to you, but I and many others are bothered when people spread the falsehood that Mormons are not Christian.

 

So my take away is that we should do what Christ asks unless search engine optimization is at stake.

 

Thanks... you have been very clear.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[Scott Lloyd]

So my take away is that we should do what Christ asks unless search engine optimization is at stake.

 

Thanks... you have been very clear.

It was clear before you superimposed your distorted slant on it.

 

Again, here is how Elder Ballard explained it.

 

As a practical matter, those outside of our faith come looking for us searching for that term. But once you open up Mormon.org, the proper name of the Church is explained on the home page, and it appears on each additional page on the site. It is impractical to expect people to type the full name of the Church when seeking to find us or when logging on to our website. While these practicalities may continue, they should not keep members from using the full name of the Church whenever possible. Let us develop the habit within our families and our Church activities and our daily interactions of making it clear that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the name by which the Lord Himself has directed that we be known

 

(Emphasis mine)

 

I think a fair-minded person would find that explanation quite reasonable.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Buckeye]

Again, what's so difficult about writing or saying, "the Church of Jesus Christ"?

 

The problem is that out here in the mission field most everyone understands "mormon" and many understand "lds."  Hardly anyone associates "The Church of Jesus Christ" with our faith.  From a marketing perspective, there are just way too many "Church of Christ"s and "Church of Jesus Christ" for those phrases to become a unique identifier for "The Church of Jesus Christ of Lattery-day Saints." 

 

I am sympathetic to the need to emphasize that we are Christians, not followers of Mormon.  There's obviously a lot of confusion on that point where I live to.  But conversations are 2-way.  I don't get to define all the terms that others use.  To communicate well, I have to use terms they understand, and I have to grant all others equal privilege to the terms I use (thus FLDS have as much right to call themselves "mormon" as I do; they use the label with just as much sincerity and reason as I would).  Because of this, I usually say "mormon" and "church of jesus christ" in the same sentence.  In the US public's mind, "mormon" is not just a choir or landmark, it is a faith. 

Edited April 7, 2014 by Buckeye

[Bikeemikey]

It was clear before you superimposed your distorted slant on it.

 

Again, here is how Elder Ballard explained it.

 

(Emphasis mine)

 

I think a fair-minded person would find that explanation quite reasonable.

 

Of course it's reasonable.

 

Never said it wasn't.

[Bikeemikey]

The problem is that out here in the mission field most everyone understands "mormon" and many understand "lds."  Hardly anyone associates "The Church of Jesus Christ" with our faith.  From a marketing perspective, there are just way too many "Church of Christ"s and "Church of Jesus Christ" for those phrases to become a unique identifier for "The Church of Jesus Christ of Lattery-day Saints." 

 

I am sympathetic to the need to emphasize that we are Christians, not followers of Mormon.  There's obviously a lot of confusion on that point where I live to.  But conversations are 2-way.  I don't get to define all the terms that others use.  To communicate well, I have to use terms they understand, and I have to grant all others equal privilege to the terms I use (thus FLDS have as much right to call themselves "mormon" as I do; they use the label with just as much sincerity and reason as I would).  Because of this, I usually say "mormon" and "church of jesus christ" in the same sentence.  In the US public's mind, "mormon" is not just a choir or landmark, it is a faith. 

 

Most of the Western world know that Mormonism is a faith and most (51%+) of those people recognize that faith as Christian. Our acceptance and awareness is one the rise significantly (63%).

 

Many of the 32% that don't recognize is as Christian know that we claim we are but refuse to recognize us as Christian due to, what they see as doctrinal differences of great importance. The idea that we are going to make a huge dent in that population by saying the name of Jesus in our Church's name more often just doesn't seem to add up.

 

However, there are a lot of people who would likely be more inclined to think of us as Christian if they heard the name of the Church... so I use it when it works.

 

However, I don't want to be Christian. I would rather be Mormon and have people know that Mormon's worship Christ; all be it a very different conception of Christ that traditional Christians. The differences in the Mormon understanding of Christ are substantial and significant.

 

I didn't become a Mormon so people would think I was a traditional Christian, though I did become a Mormon to worship Christ.

 

Edited to add link to Pew study:  http://www.pewforum.org/2012/01/12/mormons-in-america-executive-summary/

Edited April 7, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[Scott Lloyd]

The problem is that out here in the mission field most everyone understands "mormon" and many understand "lds."  Hardly anyone associates "The Church of Jesus Christ" with our faith.

I don't think Elder Ballard denies that. He's just saying that in our conversations as members of the Church, we should be careful to use the proper name of the Church, in accordance with the commandment of Christ Himself.

 

From a marketing perspective, there are just way too many "Church of Christ"s and "Church of Jesus Christ" for those phrases to become a unique identifier for "The Church of Jesus Christ of Lattery-day Saints." 

 

If one uses it in the context of a discourse or a conversation about the Church, I don't think there is much danger of people not getting the meaning from context.

 

I use the shortened form Church of Jesus Christ on this board quite often. I have never yet had anyone appear confused about what I meant.

 

 

I am sympathetic to the need to emphasize that we are Christians, not followers of Mormon.  There's obviously a lot of confusion on that point where I live to.  But conversations are 2-way.  I don't get to define all the terms that others use. 

 

 

 

But you get to choose which terms you yourself use and to make certain that your meaning is clear. That is well within your realm of control.

 

To communicate well, I have to use terms they understand, and I have to grant all others equal privilege to the terms I use (thus FLDS have as much right to call themselves "mormon" as I do; they use the label with just as much sincerity and reason as I would).

 

 

I don't see how it would be difficult to say, for example: "What you call 'the Mormon Church' I choose to refer to by it's proper name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Might be a great way to clear up misunderstanding if not sow the seeds of mssionary work.

 

  Because of this, I usually say "mormon" and "church of jesus christ" in the same sentence. 

 

 

That's fine.

 

As I have been at pains to point out here, the Church does not object to use of the term Mormon as it pertains to Church members or to things belonging to the Church. The request is that when we are referring to the Church itself as an institution, that we use the proper name.

 

In the US public's mind, "mormon" is not just a choir or landmark, it is a faith. 

 

 

See above. It's OK to use "Mormon" as a descriptor, as in "the Mormon faith."

 

Just be careful to call the Church by its proper name, as Christ has commanded and as the Brethren have repeatedly emphasized.

[Scott Lloyd]

Of course it's reasonable.

 

Never said it wasn't.

Glad to hear it.

[JLHPROF]

However, I don't want to be Christian. I would rather be Mormon and have people know that Mormon's worship Christ; all be it a very different conception of Christ that traditional Christians. The differences in the Mormon understanding of Christ are substantial and significant.

 

I didn't become a Mormon so people would think I was a traditional Christian, though I did become a Mormon to worship Christ.

 

 

Love it! 

When did it become bad for Mormons to differentiate themselves from sectarian christianity?  It might on occasion hinder missionary work a bit, but I am proud of my doctrinal differences (as Jeffrey Holland taught clearly in October 2007 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzE6QFj6maQ).

Edited April 7, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Scott Lloyd]

Love it! 

When did it become bad for Mormons to differentiate themselves from secular christianity? 

As far as I can tell, it never became bad to do so. Those who think so are misguided.

 

But boldly acknowledging the differences between our church and sectarian (I think that's the word you should have used instead of "secular") Christianity is quite a different matter than standing silently by while others spread the falsehood that we are not Christian.

[Gray]

This didn't really stick when I first heard it 15 (?) years ago, and I don't think it's going to stick now. The full name is just too cumbersome, and "The Church of Jesus Christ" isn't specific enough. 

[Gray]

http://www.thechurchofjesuschrist.org/

 

Looks like the name is already taken. 

[Bikeemikey]

As far as I can tell, it never became bad to do so. Those who think so are misguided.

But boldly acknowledging the differences between our church and sectarian (I think that's the word you should have used instead of "secular") Christianity is quite a different matter than standing silently by while others spread the falsehood that we are not Christian.

Sure. I agree with that.

But arguing over whether Mormons are Christian, say with an evangelical (as I have never done ), eventually becomes a debate about who controls the definition of the word Christian and what it "actually" means to be Christian.

I have totally stopped having the discussion as it is both combative and unwinnable.

I instead suggest that we should talk about not if I'm Christian, but rather what I believe. It is much easier to talk about Mormon beliefs with a Christian opposed to our inclusion in Christianity when the conversation is not framed against the debate of whether what I'm saying "proves" I'm Christian. It opens up the space to engage in what I am sharing with out needing to accept I am Christian.

[Scott Lloyd]

This didn't really stick when I first heard it 15 (?) years ago, and I don't think it's going to stick now. The full name is just too cumbersome, and "The Church of Jesus Christ" isn't specific enough. 

I think when the Brethren are teaching the commandments of Christ, whether it's going to "stick" or not is among the least of their motivational considerations.

[Scott Lloyd]

http://www.thechurchofjesuschrist.org/

 

Looks like the name is already taken. 

I think you are underestimating the ability of the average person to take proper meaning from context.

[Bikeemikey]

This didn't really stick when I first heard it 15 (?) years ago, and I don't think it's going to stick now. The full name is just too cumbersome, and "The Church of Jesus Christ" isn't specific enough.

Judging my the name of the church God does not have a strong background in marketing

[Bikeemikey]

I think you are underestimating the ability of the average person to take proper meaning from context.

I think you are overestimating people's ability to understand what you just wrote means!

[Scott Lloyd]

Sure. I agree with that.

But arguing over whether Mormons are Christian, say with an evangelical (as I have never done ), eventually becomes a debate about who controls the definition of the word Christian and what it "actually" means to be Christian.

I have totally stopped having the discussion as it is both combative and unwinnable.

I instead suggest that we should talk about not if I'm Christian, but rather what I believe. It is much easier to talk about Mormon beliefs with a Christian opposed to our inclusion in Christianity when the conversation is not framed against the debate of whether what I'm saying "proves" I'm Christian. It opens up the space to engage in what I am sharing with out needing to accept I am Christian.

You can do all of that as well as countering the notion when it crops up that Mormons are not Christian.

 

And one does not have to engage in protracted arguing about something that is obvious enough on its face.

[JLHPROF]

As far as I can tell, it never became bad to do so. Those who think so are misguided.

 

But boldly acknowledging the differences between our church and sectarian (I think that's the word you should have used instead of "secular") Christianity is quite a different matter than standing silently by while others spread the falsehood that we are not Christian.

 

Oops.  Yep, sectarian (distracted posting at work).  Thanks.

[Gray]

I think when the Brethren are teaching the commandments of Christ, whether it's going to "stick" or not is among the least of their motivational considerations.

 

You think this is a commandment? 

[Scott Lloyd]

Judging my the name of the church God does not have a strong background in marketing

I'll respond to that with Elder Ballard's words from the October 2011 conference:

 

I have thought a lot about why the Savior gave the nine-word name to His restored Church. It may seem long, but if we think of it as a descriptive overview of what the Church is, it suddenly becomes wonderfully brief, candid, and straightforward. How could any description be more direct and clear and yet expressed in such few words?

Every word is clarifying and indispensable. The word The indicates the unique position of the restored Church among the religions of the world.

The words Church of Jesus Christ declare that it is His Church. In the Book of Mormon, Jesus taught: “And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man [like Mormon] then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel” (3 Nephi 27:8).

Of Latter-day explains that it is the same Church as the Church that Jesus Christ established during His mortal ministry but restored in these latter days. We know there was a falling away, or an apostasy, necessitating the Restoration of His true and complete Church in our time.

Saints means that its members follow Him and strive to do His will, keep His commandments, and prepare once again to live with Him and our Heavenly Father in the future. Saint simply refers to those who seek to make their lives holy by covenanting to follow Christ.

The name the Savior has given to His Church tells us exactly who we are and what we believe. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior and the Redeemer of the world. He atoned for all who would repent of their sins, and He broke the bands of death and provided the resurrection from the dead. We follow Jesus Christ. And as King Benjamin said to his people, so I reaffirm to all of us today: “Ye should remember to retain [His] name written always in your hearts” (Mosiah 5:12).

 

[JLHPROF]

But arguing over whether Mormons are Christian, say with an evangelical (as I have never done ), eventually becomes a debate about who controls the definition of the word Christian and what it "actually" means to be Christian.

 

And yet as we've shown earlier in this thread, we do the same thing over who controls the definition of the word "Mormon" and what it actually means.  We really aren't any better when it comes to sharing terminology.