Church News: What If Moroni Had Met His Demise Before Hiding The Plates?

[cinepro]

A recent article in the Church News asks an interesting question, because I suspect apologists would answer the question differently than the author expects.

 

New Church Video: A Scriptures Legacy

 

What if Moroni had met his demise before he could hide the sacred gold plates in the Hill Cumorah?

 

Answer: Based on what we know about the dictation/translation/revelation of the Book of Mormon, the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham, the answer is that we'd probably have the exact same Book of Mormon (minus perhaps the testimony of the eight witnesses).

 

[Storm Rider]

It is an odd question to me. It assumes that God's work can be thwarted. If Moroni had been killed then another prophet would have been prepared to fulfill God's will. "What if" scenarios demand that everything except a single variable remain constant; it is not a valid discussion or is not realistic. A vacuum always creates or influences that something else happen to fill the space. 

[nosmelone]

One thing of note on that video.  It looks like the church is using a north American setting in for their Book of Mormon lands.  That definitly looks like a Hopewell mound (very much like Cahokia) that Christ is descending upon.  As a matter of fact the FIRM Foundation (Rod Meldrums group) is promoting this video because of these images.  Do you think the chuch leadership are moving away from a Mesoamerican setting or just allowing some artistic freedom?  I for one am an Mesoamericanist so I was kind of surprised to see that picture but I must admit it does look beautiful.

[Calm]

Looks more like a combination of styles to me...but I don't have an educated eye. I would like to hear from someone who has academically studied the cultures before drawing any conclusion.

[nosmelone]

Looks more like a combination of styles to me...but I don't have an educated eye. I would like to hear from someone who has academically studied the cultures before drawing any conclusion.

 

Yeah, it looks like an artistic depiction of Cahokia to me and I know that (via an email I received from the FIRM Foundations) the Heartland Meldrum group is promoting this due to at least 3 depictions that are Hopewell based.  Your probably right though,  there may be many other pictures or footage that would be considered Mesoamerican in order to appease both sides.  I was wondering if anyone knew if Keith  Merrill was involved in this project at all?  I know he was behind the "Testament" video with its Mesoamerican setting and he later has become a Heartland setting supporter.  Not that I agree but it would be interesting to see if he as any role in this video as well.

Edited April 1, 2014 by nosmelone

[Scott Lloyd]

Looks more like a combination of styles to me...but I don't have an educated eye. I would like to hear from someone who has academically studied the cultures before drawing any conclusion.

As a few of us viewed the video here in the office while the story was being prepared, we agreed it is more a mishmash of cultures.

 

It looks to me like the producers were trying hard to avoid taking sides and dealing with the resulting complaints. I don't see that the heartlanders can claim victory here.

 

Edited to add:

 

Since the video amounts to pure conjecture anyway ("what if?"), I don't see that anyone can put any doctrinal weight in the setting depicted therein.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

.

 

It looks to me like the producers were trying hard to avoid taking sides and dealing with the resulting complaints. I don't see that the heartlanders can claim victory here.

Won't stop them...but what does that say for all those other productions with a decidedly Mesoamerican slant? The argument seems rather counterproductive.

[Anijen]

I would say the mound does have a Cahokia appearance, if you take out the cement type buildings. Monks mound did have a structure on it top also, but not like the one pictured. Cement is not part and never has been part of Hopewell archaeology.

 

Heartlanders can do whatever they please it is their own choice. Having said that they will run into many problems of credibility as it becomes more known. Wayne May and Rodney Meldrum are not experts of the Hopewell or Adena and although they do use experts they have to quote mine them and distort what the they [real experts] have said, and they omit much of what the real history of the Hopewell.  

 

Here are some of the problems they will face using the mounds at Cahokia as an example;

 

1. Mississippi is a south flowing river, the Sidon is a north flowing river.

2. Cahokia was built over many generations and the skeletons found within are not from a single event, but over time.

3. The most skeletons found at one event is 9.

4. Mound 72 has the most skeletal remains found (in a mound not from one event).

5. The large number of arrow points found, every single one of them are pristine and never been used. They were bundled together tied with what looks like a cloth and all pointed in the same             direction. They were found placed on top of the skeletons. These were ritual arrow heads and never used in combat or hunting.

6. Some skeletons were probably criminals or prisoners and were found decapitated or their hands cut off or both. These were buried in one group and numbered about 7 skeletons.

7. There is absolutely no evidence of a mass migration to or from. There is no evidence of any large army.

8. Historic periods are different the historic period for Florida begins around the 1500's while the historic period for Illinois (where Cahokia is located) is 1673 started with the voyages of Marquette       and Joliet. The book of Mormon had a writing system, hence it could not be placed in Illinois.

9. The population figures in the Book of Mormon are huge even taken into account if they were inflated. Cahokia's population at its peak was 50K at the most and that was not until about 1150 AD.

10. The time line of Cahokia does not match with the Book of Mormon as far as population. Cahokia was just a small insignificant lump not even a hill during most of the timeline of the Book of               Mormon.

 

Back to the video, my guess is Keith Merrill or someone with a connection to FIRM perhaps had some influence. In this , if not I am only guessing. The film does not bother me at all since I am fully aware of Cahokia's history, and it would have to had greater unwritten miracles for it to be so.

[Scott Lloyd]

Back to the video, my guess is Keith Merrill or someone with a connection to FIRM perhaps had some influence. In this , if not I am only guessing. The film does not bother me at all since I am fully aware of Cahokia's history, and it would have to had greater unwritten miracles for it to be so.

The reason I don't think Merrill was involved in this one is that he is now very firmly in the Meldrum camp and would not have abided any suggestion of a Mesoamerican setting -- of which there are some in the film.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

Poor Meldrum. Here he is trying to make an honest buck selling stuff in church and testifying of it priestcraft style and the Church just will not throw their support behind him.

[CV75]

A recent article in the Church News asks an interesting question, because I suspect apologists would answer the question differently than the author expects.

I don't think the article meant to convey anything more than the importance of the scriptures and the sacrifices made (or risks taken--as in considering "what if?") by the faithful who made it possible for us to possess them.

[cinepro]

I don't think the article meant to convey anything more than the importance of the scriptures and the sacrifices made (or risks taken--as in considering "what if?") by the faithful who made it possible for us to possess them.

 

That's my point.  If the descriptions of Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon are correct, then it sounds like the plates weren't even used.  And if Moroni had been found and killed, it sounds like he was able to move the plates around in his resurrected form so he could have continued his journey in immortal form.  Or God could have opened up the Hill Cumorah for Joseph and let him use a different set of plates from the roomful...

[Scott Lloyd]

 

That's my point.  If the descriptions of Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon are correct, then it sounds like the plates weren't even used.  And if Moroni had been found and killed, it sounds like he was able to move the plates around in his resurrected form so he could have continued his journey in immortal form.  Or God could have opened up the Hill Cumorah for Joseph and let him use a different set of plates from the roomful...

I think most "what if" scenarios are problematical in any case.

 

I very rarely criticize a Church initiative, but I think this video was ill-advised.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[ERayR]

One thing of note on that video.  It looks like the church is using a north American setting in for their Book of Mormon lands.  That definitly looks like a Hopewell mound (very much like Cahokia) that Christ is descending upon.  As a matter of fact the FIRM Foundation (Rod Meldrums group) is promoting this video because of these images.  Do you think the chuch leadership are moving away from a Mesoamerican setting or just allowing some artistic freedom?  I for one am an Mesoamericanist so I was kind of surprised to see that picture but I must admit it does look beautiful.

 

Nope.

[CV75]

That's my point.  If the descriptions of Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon are correct, then it sounds like the plates weren't even used.  And if Moroni had been found and killed, it sounds like he was able to move the plates around in his resurrected form so he could have continued his journey in immortal form.  Or God could have opened up the Hill Cumorah for Joseph and let him use a different set of plates from the roomful...

Yet both Moroni and Joseph Smith faced their challenges, took their risks, and sacrificed on a number of levels. Because of their character, they would have risen to occassion under any proposed set of circumstances, and we would have been no less blessed.

I can only imagine what it does to a man to be killed in the execution of his sacred task, and then what it takes for him to be resurrected in a sufficiently worthy condition to resume it.

[cinepro]

Won't stop them...but what does that say for all those other productions with a decidedly Mesoamerican slant? The argument seems rather counterproductive.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. While it's easy to insist that the different geography camps ("Mesoamericanists" and "Heartlanders") are peripheral to the ultimate truth claims of the Book of Mormon, I disagree.  The Book of Mormon is an epic story spanning 1,000+ years, huge cities and civilizations, and battles and wars involving hundreds of thousands of people.  And yet we have no idea where it happened.  This is not good for those who would argue for a strong historical reading of the book. 

 

Second, the sad fact is that all of this could be very easily and quickly solved with a simple revelation.  God used to do it all the time, and we collected these revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants. For example, Section 86 is a simple explanation of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, Section 77 is a Q&A explaining the Book of Revelation, and Section 117 clearly tells us where Adam-ondi-Ahman is.

 

If God is the same as He was back in the 1830s, and President Monson is the same kind of Prophet that Joseph Smith was, it seems really odd to me that such a simple question, so important to so many LDS and so important to our understanding of the Book of Mormon, hasn't warranted even the simplest revelation.  It would literally take less than 30 seconds to reveal everything we need to know and then the thousands of faithful LDS could (mercifully) stop wasting their time and money on a false geography, whichever it is.

[Buckeye]

I think most "what if" scenarios are problematical in any case.

 

I very rarely criticize a Church initiative, but I think this video was ill-advised.

 

The whole video or just the parts some members will intrepret as to BOM location?  The video is claimed to be the special project of Elder Christofferson, with a few 70s helping him. 

[nosmelone]

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. While it's easy to insist that the different geography camps ("Mesoamericanists" and "Heartlanders") are peripheral to the ultimate truth claims of the Book of Mormon, I disagree.  The Book of Mormon is an epic story spanning 1,000+ years, huge cities and civilizations, and battles and wars involving hundreds of thousands of people.  And yet we have no idea where it happened.  This is not good for those who would argue for a strong historical reading of the book. 

 

Second, the sad fact is that all of this could be very easily and quickly solved with a simple revelation.  God used to do it all the time, and we collected these revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants. For example, Section 86 is a simple explanation of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, Section 77 is a Q&A explaining the Book of Revelation, and Section 117 clearly tells us where Adam-ondi-Ahman is.

 

If God is the same as He was back in the 1830s, and President Monson is the same kind of Prophet that Joseph Smith was, it seems really odd to me that such a simple question, so important to so many LDS and so important to our understanding of the Book of Mormon, hasn't warranted even the simplest revelation.  It would literally take less than 30 seconds to reveal everything we need to know and then the thousands of faithful LDS could (mercifully) stop wasting their time and money on a false geography, whichever it is.

I completely agree and would love nothing more than to see that revelation take place.  I assume that unfortunately it will have to fall under the Neal A. Maxwell quote as something that is used to test our faith:  “It is the author’s opinion that all the scriptures, including the Book of Mormon, will remain in the realm of faith. Science will not be able to prove or disprove holy writ. However, enough plausible evidence will come forth to prevent scoffers from having a field day, but not enough to remove the requirement of faith. Believers must be patient during such unfolding”

[David T]

Here's some pictures online from it:

https://www.facebook.com/bookofmormon/photos/pcb.563797993718861/632256860163546/?type=1&theater

 

[David T]

[David T]

If any change is illustrated, it's that we're not emphasizing this had anything to do with any prophets who were actual aboriginal inhabitants of America. Just White Europeans living among them, Dances with Wolves style.

But, when it comes to our videos and general artwork depicting the Book of Mormon, I guess that's not really a change.

Seriously, though - are there not any Mormons of aboriginal American descent who are available or qualified to act in any of these productions? Or a non-Mormon of aboriginal American descent with good acting chops who might be willing to feature in a religious film to make a few bucks?

The production values of Church films have gone extremely upwards in quality of late. They are gorgeous to look at, and appear to have good talent at play in terms of acting, direction, and photography.

But Alma and Mormon as beefy bearded pale Europeans? Why are we still clinging to the Friberg illustrations as visual Canon? I mean, at least they aren't having white actors in brownface makeup like in Testaments.

 

But still...

Edited April 4, 2014 by David T

[MiserereNobis]

Those are some buff vikings!

 

ETA:  some of those scenes could almost be on Game of Thrones!

Edited April 4, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[Calm]

Just White Europeans living among them, Dances with Wolves style.

 

I was thinking it looked a lot more like Europe than America, lol.

 

And not just Europeans but Europeans who spend a good deal of their lives inside or are from the North given that beside dirt, these guys look pretty pasty.

[Scott Lloyd]

Looks like it's as much influenced by Friberg as it is by heartlanders.

As has been said here, trying too hard to placate everybody.

Edited to add:

Looks like David T and I had similar thoughts about Friberg influence.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[canard78]

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. While it's easy to insist that the different geography camps ("Mesoamericanists" and "Heartlanders") are peripheral to the ultimate truth claims of the Book of Mormon, I disagree. The Book of Mormon is an epic story spanning 1,000+ years, huge cities and civilizations, and battles and wars involving hundreds of thousands of people. And yet we have no idea where it happened. This is not good for those who would argue for a strong historical reading of the book.

Second, the sad fact is that all of this could be very easily and quickly solved with a simple revelation. God used to do it all the time, and we collected these revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants. For example, Section 86 is a simple explanation of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, Section 77 is a Q&A explaining the Book of Revelation, and Section 117 clearly tells us where Adam-ondi-Ahman is.

If God is the same as He was back in the 1830s, and President Monson is the same kind of Prophet that Joseph Smith was, it seems really odd to me that such a simple question, so important to so many LDS and so important to our understanding of the Book of Mormon, hasn't warranted even the simplest revelation. It would literally take less than 30 seconds to reveal everything we need to know and then the thousands of faithful LDS could (mercifully) stop wasting their time and money on a false geography, whichever it is.

I've come to terms with a simple answer and a slightly more complicated one.

1) The prophets today bear very little resemblance to the revelation style of Joseph Smith. The latter has face to face with God and angels. The former say they pray and they "think God hears them."

2) God might also be different. God seems to be created by each of in our own image. That doesn't mean he's a figment of our imagination but manifests in ways each of us best desires. Our desires and assumptions define God. Prophets included.

Edited April 4, 2014 by canard78