The True Story Of Joseph Smith

[thesometimesaint]

siiiiigh. I'm done. Yall may as well believe in magic.

 

Only Muggles don't believe in magic.

 

More seriously ""Arthur C. Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

[altersteve]

He tricked Martin Harris to get funding

 

Um. CFR please.

[Mark Beesley]

You can't really guarantee anything. But whatever. There are so many Mormons that have a blind testimony of the church because they were raised in it and fear for what happens to them after this life who don't really know anything about the church, because the church discourages reading anti-mormon material or any material that is damaging to the church.

What is a "blind testimony?" If the Holy Spirit testifies to me that a certain fact is true, is there any greater witness that I need before it is safe from disparagement as being a "blind testimony?" Maybe you are confused about the difference between testimony and faith. Would you like some instruction?

[Mark Beesley]

siiiiigh. I'm done. Yall may as well believe in magic.

You believe in science faucets, we believe in magic. (Fix your profile page, make sure of your word usage. I have difficulty taking anyone too seriously who won't "fact check" their own flaws.)

[sweetpotatoh]

Ok, so I've been "warned" about the rules here. So I've decided to start a topic about the true story of Joseph Smith. Note: I'm not indicating the true story is a bad one, I'm indicating let's get down to the nitty gritty of JS's life. What is the true story about Joseph Smith? Let's iron out the details of the first prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Post in the thread and contribute if you want, if you don't want to contribute to this thread, then please don't post.

 

I kinda wanna make this a focused discussion and would kindly ask that nobody argue, but debate with facts and references. This board seems diverse enough, and I promise to remain as objective as I can, if I didn't care about the LDS church at all, I wouldn't even have joined this site in the first place. Like my screen name says let's get down to the truth. Again, please post references also. 

 

"Smith was born in Sharon, Vermont, the fifth of eleven children born to Joseph and Lucy Mack Smith. By 1817, Smith's family had moved to the "burned-over district" of western New York, an area repeatedly swept by religious revivals during theSecond Great Awakening. Smith family members held divergent views about organized religion, but they believed in visions and prophecies and engaged in folk religious practices typical of the era. Smith briefly investigated Methodism, but he was generally disillusioned with the churches of his day."

taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Smith

 

That seems like a good place to start. What's next?

In college we were not allowed to use Wikipedia as a reference. It's perplexing you want sources and references but use a source that can be edited by anyone. How is that credible? As has been suggested read Rough Stone Rolling and then you will be better equipped to discuss Joseph Smith.

[Avatar4321]

I don't want to be contrary, but the simple fact that people revile someone doesn't serve well as evidence that they are called of God.  Fred Phelps, the founder and leader of Westboro Baptist church (yes, those folks who protest at military funerals) said that the fact that people hated him showed that he was truly called of God.  Do you believe it?

 

What about Torquemada, the prime face of the Spanish Inquisition?  Does the fact that his name is "had for evil among all nations" show that he is was from God?

 

It is a terrible thing to assume that because the "world" is against you, you must be from God.

 

Did anyone prophecy that Fred Phelps name would be had for good and evil among all nations? Moreover, has every nation heard of him? Is his name had for good anywhere? Even his own church excommunicated him.

[Avatar4321]

siiiiigh. I'm done. Yall may as well believe in magic.

 

Who on earth believes in magic? You really need to learn respect for the beliefs of others.

[Avatar4321]

He is not here to learn, he is here to school us on the truth.

 

I've found that almost all people on the internet with truth in their handle aren't looking for truth. It's really sad since the Truth should be the quest of all of us. After all, every one of us is ignorant of something. That's precisely why we should dedicate ourselves to learning more where we can. And refining what we do know until it's more accurate.

 

All we can do is pray for him and continue being kind to him. One day he will knows the truth about Christ. Let's just hope that's while there is time to do something about it.

[theplains]

It is a terrible thing to assume that because the "world" is against you, you must be from God.

 

I would agree. Even Joseph Smith got trapped by the same rationale.

 

"So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages,

and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had

seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all

manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me

for telling the truth? ..."

 

It did not enter his mind that people were persecuting him because they thought he was being

deceived by demonic spirits. Suffering persecution does not mean you are doing right.

 

On the other hand, if you are very popular with the 'world', then you must re-examine your walk

with Christ.

 

Thanks,

Jim

[pogi]

I would agree. Even Joseph Smith got trapped by the same rationale.

 

"So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages,

and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had

seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all

manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me

for telling the truth? ..."

 

It did not enter his mind that people were persecuting him because they thought he was being

deceived by demonic spirits. Suffering persecution does not mean you are doing right.

 

On the other hand, if you are very popular with the 'world', then you must re-examine your walk

with Christ.

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

I have been thinking about this a little.  I agree that simply because the world is against you, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are from God.  However, interestingly there is scriptural precedence for using persecution as a sign or validation that you are following Christ.

 

John 15:19-20 says "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.  Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord.  If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you..."

 

There is also Matthew 5:10 - "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.  Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.  Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."

 

You can see how easy it would be to use persecution as validation that you are in the right.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

"So from all of those evidences I personally knew about or experienced, I believed the Book of Mormon people were spread all over the Western Hemisphere. Imagine my surprise when DNA studies in recent decades conclusively revealed virtually no Hebrew DNA among Native Americans. On the contrary, the DNA findings revealed that the ancestors of the Native Americans came from Asia."

 

Tell that to the Cherokee people, who own legends say they come from across the sea and who's DNA show Ashkenazi and Levite markers.

Seems he is a tad behind on his research.

http://amarielfamily.tripod.com/PressRelease.pdf

[Truth 101]

First of all I'm pretty sure he's referring to Native American tribes in the Western US. The Cherokee nation is in the east, and not only that but the only full blooded members of the Cherokee nation left are extremely old. Either way, there is still no evidence the Nephites or Lamanites ever existed. And just because there may be Ashkenazi and Levite markers doesn't even mean those people were from Israel. What if there was a huge cataclysm and I ended up having a baby with someone of Japanese or other Asian decent and all generations after just had kids with other Asians? A thousand years down the line you would find Caucasian markers in a bunch of people's DNA. 

 

Have your DNA analyzed I bet you find markers from all over the place. 

 

And that still doesn't prove that the Nephites or Lamanites ever existed.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Truth 101

[BookofMormonLuvr]

First of all I'm pretty sure he's referring to Native American tribes in the Western US. The Cherokee nation is in the east, and not only that but the only full blooded members of the Cherokee nation left are extremely old. Either way, there is still no evidence the Nephites or Lamanites ever existed. And just because there may be Ashkenazi and Levite markers doesn't even mean those people were from Israel. What if there was a huge cataclysm and I ended up having a baby with someone of Japanese or other Asian decent and all generations after just had kids with other Asians? A thousand years down the line you would find Caucasian markers in a bunch of people's DNA. 

 

Have your DNA analyzed I bet you find markers from all over the place. 

 

And that still doesn't prove that the Nephites or Lamanites ever existed.

 

That was an awesome lesson backtracking !

Their own legends say they came from the Middle East.

Did you actually read the link I posted?

[Truth 101]

That was an awesome lesson backtracking !

Their own legends say they came from the Middle East.

Did you actually read the link I posted?

"The Northern Cherokee Nation of the Old Louisiana Territory has recently shocked the world by claiming their ancient Oral legends tell of a Cherokee migration made to America from the area known as Masada." 

this group is NOT cherokee. They aren't even native. They are one of a hundred fake Native American tribes set up to make themselves feel special, anyone can join for a fee. 

I guess playing indian wasn't enough, now they are getting attention for claiming to be Jewish too? Whats next? Refugees from Atlantis? they are frauds..plain and simple. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cherokee_Nation_of_the_Old_Louisiana_Territory

These aren't even real Native Americans.

it's bad enough that the REAL Cherokee have put a task force together to expose the fakes. 

http://tribalrecognition.cherokee.org/ 

look at the fraudulent group list at #27. There is your Jewish Cherokee tribe, and this list is JUST those who claim to be Cherokee. 

 

Do some research next time and don't believe it just because you read it one time.

 

Edited March 30, 2014 by Truth 101

[Truth 101]

And still. 

No proof of Nephites or Lamanites

[thesometimesaint]

Truth 101:

 

It works better if you stick to one subject at a time a scatter gun approach seldom works.

 

To address the issue of polygamy and polyandry. Both are well addressed in the Bible, and the Book of Mormon.

[savedbygrace]

What's next is you put down whatever electronic device you are using and go find a copy of Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman.

After reading it you will be properly equipped to have an informed discussion on Joseph Smith (something you will not get from Wikipedia).

-guerreiro9

Or "No Man Knows My History".

[webbles]

Here's a few links for your reading enjoyment.
 

Polygamy and Polyandry

http://en.fairmormon.org/Polyandry
http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy
 

The fact that JS had a reputation as being "out there"

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Occultism_and_magic
http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/"Amusing_recitals"_of_ancient_American_inhabitants
 

There is no historical evidence of Nephites or Lamanites

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology
 

DNA evidence that destroys the claims of historicity of the entire Book of Mormon (DNA doesn't know how to lie)

http://en.fairmormon.org/Topical_Guide/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon/DNA_and_the_Book_of_Mormon
 

The Book of Abraham are nothing but run of the mill Egyptian funerary texts.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri

Edited March 30, 2014 by webbles

[changed]

He and all his family and other friends believed in all the regular folk superstitions of the day like magic talismans and stones and divining rods. .   

 A belief in behaviors that supercede materialsim is not irrational, and stones etc. were used in the old testament.  The difference between magic and miracles, or between guidance from stones, and guidance from the Spirit, perhaps lies within one's heart - to see the tool as just a tool, or as an idol. 

That said, Gallileo and all of his family and other friends and people of the day believed the earth was flat - then Galileo changed his mind, and found something different.  The point is not about condemning someone for the world they lived in, or the things they were taught, but instead to see their ability to change and grow despite where they started.

Edited March 30, 2014 by changed

[thesometimesaint]

 A belief in behaviors that supercede materialsim is not irrational, and stones etc. were used in the old testament.  The difference between magic and miracles, or between guidance from stones, and guidance from the Spirit, perhaps lies within one's heart - to see the tool as just a tool, or as an idol. 

That said, Gallileo and all of his family and other friends and people of the day believed the earth was flat - then Galileo changed his mind, and found something different.  The point is not about condemning someone for the world they lived in, or the things they were taught, but instead to see their ability to change and grow despite where they started.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

[halconero]

I have my own theory. It is morally wrong to have sex with other women when you are married to one already. So how does one get around this? Use the US constitution (freedom of religion), and make your own religion where it's ok to have multiple sexual partners! Search the internet, JS was known his whole life for making many grandiose claims and was known as a treasure hunter and known for trickery. He was extremely intelligent and charismatic as well, thus why he was able to gain many followers. He tricked Martin Harris to get funding, and when Lucy took a couple pages and told Martin that if JS was able to retranslate the page again then he was indeed a prophet of god. But then JS told Martin that because he lost the pages God forbid him to translate from those plates again. How convenient.

Reminds me of the South Park episode

Lucy Harris smart smart smart

Martin Harris dumb

How incredibly ethnocentric.

Western European morality and the marriage ideology is not applicable in many societies.

[readstoomuch]

I am coming in late on this discussion, but there are two lines of reasoning presented in arguments against the Church. The first and actually most common nowadays seems to be the secular, don`t believe in the myths of God and religion. That arm relies on science, reason and enlightenment. The second line is along the evangelical, Bible Answerman line of reasoning. The LDS message flies in the face of the Christian tradition.

It sounds like Truth is from the secular arm and then he has a shotgun of issues that have to be tackled. All the secular arguments against the Church can be applied to whatever religion that you want to bring up. It is sad that so many evangelicals wouldn`t vote for Romney. They seemed to be saying that they were more afraid of Mormons than the liberal, socialistic message of what has become the Democratic Party. If the evangelicals would join with people of other faiths, even when they are not eye to eye on all points, we could do so much to help the nation and the world. Evangelical anti-mormons and secular anti-mormons can become strange bedfellows in their attacks against the Church. I doubt they would be caught dead with each other in any other circumstance.

I personally study science, reason and enlightenment along with the scriptures to search for truth. Prayer and meditation is a source of truth. David Bokovoy`s recent book discusses using Higher Criticism as tools to help understand the gospel. His work has shown some impressive models to understand the translation of the PoGP and BOM.

I will take on evolution. The Church has never officially taught against evolution. Duane Jeffries book clearly shows that with a number of First Presidency statements back to the early 1900`s. Evolutionary principles do not defeat the LDS religion. Much as Higher Criticism and the scriptures there are ways through the evolutionary questions. Individuals such as Joseph Fielding Smith or Bruce R McConkie teaching against evolution comes down to them teaching their own opinion. Another issue that becomes a stumbling block for many. Like evolution, the fact that our leaders speak for themselves on occasion, can help us formulate strategies for finding truth and overcoming challenges to our faith. Random thoughts from my brain, take them for what they are worth.

[Calm]

mormons are afraid to question all the backwards crap that went on in the LDS church's infancy

 

At this point, it is more boredom with the repetition.

[Truth 101]

Truth 101:

 

It works better if you stick to one subject at a time a scatter gun approach seldom works.

 

To address the issue of polygamy and polyandry. Both are well addressed in the Bible, and the Book of Mormon.

meh

[Truth 101]

Truth, why are you being so antagonistic? My friend it will achieve nothing, there was no need for this discussion, except I suspect your own unresolved issues. You could have found more than enough material had you searched previous posts, then if that search prompted questions, the discussion may have been different. You say you know the rules, look at the stuff you are posting, you are being confrontational, and you may choke on what you have bitten off.

Naw, I'm still breathin'