The True Story Of Joseph Smith

[Tacenda]

Did it interfere too much with your preconceptions/prejudices? Or are you simply too steeped in the rhetoric of his opponents for any contrary/contrasting positive views of him to be of much interest to you?

Sorry, Tacenda. I don't necessarily have anything against you personally, but I do think those are fair (if frank) questions.

No, there are some books and the way they read, that are difficult for me. This was about 3 or so years ago. I can't finish "The Book of Mammon", or the latest Brigham Young book either. I blame boards like this!! They distract me. And I didn't get through all of "In Sacred Loneliness" either, the book that solidified my crisis. But I read "The Work and the Glory" series years ago, with no problem. I'll try to see if I have new eyes to tackle RSR again. Oh, and I tried to read D. Michael Quinn's books also and never finished. So, it's not what you thought. PS: Alot of NOM type people thought RSR wasn't all that faith promoting, I even thought it shocking that Deseret Book carried it! But times are a changin'. Edited March 23, 2014 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

No, there are some books and the way they read, that are difficult for me. This was about 3 or so years ago. I can't finish "The Book of Mammon", or the latest Brigham Young book either. I blame boards like this!! They distract me. And I didn't get through all of "In Sacred Loneliness" either, the book that solidified my crisis. But I read "The Work and the Glory" series years ago, with no problem. I'll try to see if I have new eyes to tackle RSR again. Oh, and I tried to read D. Michael Quinn's books also and never finished. So, it's not what you thought. PS: Alot of NOM type people thought RSR wasn't all that faith promoting, I even thought it shocking that Deseret Book carried it! But times are a changin'.

Thanks for the clarification.  I certainly don't want to be unfair to you.

[pogi]

I don't want to be contrary, but the simple fact that people revile someone doesn't serve well as evidence that they are called of God.  Fred Phelps, the founder and leader of Westboro Baptist church (yes, those folks who protest at military funerals) said that the fact that people hated him showed that he was truly called of God.  Do you believe it?

 

What about Torquemada, the prime face of the Spanish Inquisition?  Does the fact that his name is "had for evil among all nations" show that he is was from God?

 

It is a terrible thing to assume that because the "world" is against you, you must be from God.

 

Agreed.  However, I do not see the fulfillment in the evil spoken against Joseph as much as in the GLOBAL scope of controversy over his name.  He has truly become one of the most controversial (good and evil spoken of him) figures in history, not just American history but across the globe.  How could a simple uneducated boy have such vision and understanding to so accurately predict the world-wide consequences of what he was about to embark on?  It is remarkable that the good spoken about him does not come solely from within the church either, nor the evil solely from without.  Here is a wonderful article which describes the fulfillment of this prophecy a little further:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1995/08/good-and-evil-spoken-of?lang=eng

Edited March 23, 2014 by pogi

[Truth 101]

Truth, maybe it would be easier if you just asked the questions you really want to know about.  This is not history book, but forum for discussion.  There are thousands of topics that could be discussed about Joseph Smith and I suspect that each of them has been addressed on this forum at one time or another.  

 

Additionally, it would be helpful if you came to an understanding that you have no "new" position on Joseph Smith; that there is no "new" information on him. Many of us have been around the block many times and have studied this man from a historical context and a spiritual context.  If you are looking to make Joseph to be a perfect man, then you will be sorely disappointed.  If you are trying to make him a man devoid of admirable attributes, then you will also be disappointed.  Joseph Smith was a man who woke up and put his pants on just like every other person. He had faults and he had strengths.  Some believe he was a prophet and others believe he was a scoundrel.  The great thing is that you get to choose and no one here will judge you for your position.  

 

However, if you want to come here with a giant chip on your shoulder or think that you will show those faithful, but stupid Mormons on this forum a thing or two, this will always be a short conversation. We don't deal well with your chip on the shoulder and no one is here to "prove" something to the other.  It is just a place for friendly discussion.  More importantly, we are generally talking about sacred, spiritual matters most of the time.  This a a forum of respect and we demand that of each participant. 

 

If you have questions, ask them and people will interact with you and it will be a discussion.  Enjoy your time here. 

 

See but the thing is is when we get closer and closer to when JS died and the TRUTH about who he really was I'll just end up getting banned. I could post links from places that aren't anti-mormon websites that would reveal who he really was, but then, like I said, I will get banned.

[Truth 101]

Very good, but I don't see a question. Also if you love the Church, return with your Mother, instead of saying you will never return in your intro. The joy that it would bring to your Mom will be overwhelming, and maybe Dad with follow your led...fathers can look up to their children. Comeback my brother.

 When did I say I love the church? I just stated that it is apart of my life because the majority of my family is mormon. In truth I think the church is a corporation who uses guilt and fear to funnel funds from their members to keep it running. But now they almost don't even need their member's tithing anymore because of all the assets they own such as property, hotels, and malls.

 

And like I said, please post LINKS that are NOT from anti-mormon websites or from lds.org or any other mormon sites that are obviously biased. Third party links only please, which includes wikipedia for the most part.

Let's take a look at all the wives JS had.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith's_wives

 

Emma Smith detested polygamy and that is why she disagreed with Brigham Young and didn't embark on the journey to the west with him and his group.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Emma_Smith

 

Then there are the Kinderhook Plates, which the church did admit they were a hoax but denied Joseph ever tried to translate them. Well of course they're going to make that claim! Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Personally I think he did and got burned, but that one's up in the air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_plates

 

Then the book of Abraham, which was nothing but run of the mill death scroll papyrus with the head of Osiris ripped off and Abraham's head put in it's place. Other scrolls depicting the EXACT same thing have been found in tombs in Egypt, also the Rosetta Stone had yet to be discovered so the means to translate ancient Egyptian did not yet exist, and Joseph did not use the Urim and Thummim to translate the papyrus.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2691644/posts

Edited March 24, 2014 by Truth 101

[VideoGameJunkie]

Ok Truth, try and explain who Joseph Smith "really" was. You won't get banned. I'm interested in hearing what you have to say.

[Coreyb]

See but the thing is is when we get closer and closer to when JS died and the TRUTH about who he really was I'll just end up getting banned. I could post links from places that aren't anti-mormon websites that would reveal who he really was, but then, like I said, I will get banned.

Dude, quit acting like you know some secret information about Joseph Smith that if only the mods would let you post on here it would prove your point and void every believers testimony. Every regular on this board knows about the controversies surrounding Joseph's later (and earlier) years. Probably all know more about it than you. Do you think you are the only one who visits "anti" websites. I guarantee I have spent more time on there than you, (based on some of your clueless comments) and I'm just a novice. Dismount that high horse you've been riding or you won't learn anything here.

Ps. I hope you stay on the board

[Truth 101]

I don't want to be contrary, but the simple fact that people revile someone doesn't serve well as evidence that they are called of God.  Fred Phelps, the founder and leader of Westboro Baptist church (yes, those folks who protest at military funerals) said that the fact that people hated him showed that he was truly called of God.  Do you believe it?

 

What about Torquemada, the prime face of the Spanish Inquisition?  Does the fact that his name is "had for evil among all nations" show that he is was from God?

 

It is a terrible thing to assume that because the "world" is against you, you must be from God.

Couldn't have said it better myself my Catholic friend

[Truth 101]

Dude, quit acting like you know some secret information about Joseph Smith that if only the mods would let you post on here it would prove your point and void every believers testimony. Every regular on this board knows about the controversies surrounding Joseph's later (and earlier) years. Probably all know more about it than you. Do you think you are the only one who visits "anti" websites. I guarantee I have spent more time on there than you, (based on some of your clueless comments) and I'm just a novice. Dismount that high horse you've been riding or you won't learn anything here.

Ps. I hope you stay on the board

You can't really guarantee anything. But whatever. There are so many Mormons that have a blind testimony of the church because they were raised in it and fear for what happens to them after this life who don't really know anything about the church, because the church discourages reading anti-mormon material or any material that is damaging to the church.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Truth 101

[Coreyb]

Agreed, there are to many Mormons like that, you just won't find many here

[Truth 101]

I have my own theory. It is morally wrong to have sex with other women when you are married to one already. So how does one get around this? Use the US constitution (freedom of religion), and make your own religion where it's ok to have multiple sexual partners! Search the internet, JS was known his whole life for making many grandiose claims and was known as a treasure hunter and known for trickery. He was extremely intelligent and charismatic as well, thus why he was able to gain many followers. He tricked Martin Harris to get funding, and when Lucy took a couple pages and told Martin that if JS was able to retranslate the page again then he was indeed a prophet of god. But then JS told Martin that because he lost the pages God forbid him to translate from those plates again. How convenient.

 

Reminds me of the South Park episode

 

Lucy Harris smart smart smart

Martin Harris dumb

[Wiki Wonka]

You can't really guarantee anything. But whatever. There are so many Mormons that have a blind testimony of the church because they were raised in it and fear for what happens to them after this life who don't really know anything about the church, because the church discourages reading anti-mormon material or any material that is damaging to the church.

 

You are not going to find anyone on this board who is not already at least passingly familiar with the common issues that are brought up about Joseph Smith's life (e.g. polygamy, Kinderhook plates, Greek Psalter, translating the Book of Mormon using a stone in a hat, using a gun at Carthage Jail, treasure seeking, trial for glass looking, etc., etc., etc.). 

 

Please tell me you are not going to point us to every Wikipedia article about Joseph Smith and claim that they are the only "unbiased" source of information. 

 

BTW, my opinion of Latter-day Saint-related Wikipedia articles and their bias is pretty thoroughly reflected here:

 

Mormonism and Wikipedia: The Church History That “Anyone Can Edit”, Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture (2012)

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/mormonism-and-wikipedia-the-church-history-that-anyone-can-edit/

 

and here

 

"Wiki Wars: In battle to define beliefs, Mormons and foes wage battle on Wikipedia," Deseret News (30 Jan 2011)

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700105517/Wiki-Wars-In-battle-to-define-beliefs-Mormons-and-foes-wage-battle-on-Wikipedia.html?pg=all

Edited March 24, 2014 by Wiki Wonka

[Truth 101]

Agreed, there are to many Mormons like that, you just won't find many here

For the most part, kinda why I post here in the first place.

[Truth 101]

You are not going to find anyone on this board who is not already at least passingly familiar with the common issues that are brought up about Joseph Smith's life (e.g. polygamy, Kinderhook plates, Greek Psalter, translating the Book of Mormon using a stone in a hat, using a gun at Carthage Jail, etc., etc., etc.). 

 

Please tell me you are not going to point us to every Wikipedia article about Joseph Smith and claim that they are the only "unbiased" source of information. 

 

BTW, my opinion of Latter-day Saint-related Wikipedia articles and their bias is pretty thoroughly reflected here:

 

Mormonism and Wikipedia: The Church History That “Anyone Can Edit”, Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture (2012)

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/mormonism-and-wikipedia-the-church-history-that-anyone-can-edit/

 

and here

 

"Wiki Wars: In battle to define beliefs, Mormons and foes wage battle on Wikipedia," Deseret News (30 Jan 2011)

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700105517/Wiki-Wars-In-battle-to-define-beliefs-Mormons-and-foes-wage-battle-on-Wikipedia.html?pg=all

Well there are two other links there that aren't from wikipedia. And I said for the most part because wikipedia can be biased as well. But I'm a member of wikipedia and EVERY religion's page is locked as to prevent people from doing this. Not only are religion pages blocked but other topics as well, IE the page about nazis. I love how you posted a link from deseret news. You know, the newpaper that the church OWNS.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Truth 101

[Wiki Wonka]

I have my own theory. It is morally wrong to have sex with other women when you are married to one already. So how does one get around this? Use the US constitution (freedom of religion), and make your own religion where it's ok to have multiple sexual partners! Search the internet, JS was known his whole life for making many grandiose claims and was known as a treasure hunter and known for trickery. He was extremely intelligent and charismatic as well, thus why he was able to gain many followers. He tricked Martin Harris to get funding, and when Lucy took a couple pages and told Martin that if JS was able to retranslate the page again then he was indeed a prophet of god. But then JS told Martin that because he lost the pages God forbid him to translate from those plates again. How convenient.

 

Reminds me of the South Park episode

 

Lucy Harris smart smart smart

Martin Harris dumb

 

If this is the depth of your ability to discuss these subjects and the quality of your citations, you are probably not going to be very happy here.

[rodheadlee]

Dude, quit acting like you know some secret information about Joseph Smith that if only the mods would let you post on here it would prove your point and void every believers testimony. Every regular on this board knows about the controversies surrounding Joseph's later (and earlier) years. Probably all know more about it than you. Do you think you are the only one who visits "anti" websites. I guarantee I have spent more time on there than you, (based on some of your clueless comments) and I'm just a novice. Dismount that high horse you've been riding or you won't learn anything here.

Ps. I hope you stay on the board

He is not here to learn, he is here to school us on the truth.

[Wiki Wonka]

Well there are two other links there that aren't from wikipedia. And I said for the most part because wikipedia can be biased as well. But I'm a member of wikipedia and EVERY religion's page is locked as to prevent people from doing this. Not only are religion pages blocked but other topics as well, IE the page about nazis. I love how you posted a link from deseret news. You know, the newpaper that the church OWNS.

 

I have also been a Wikipedia editor on those pages, and there are others who are posting in this thread who are also Wikipedia editors. Believe me, we are very familiar with the history of the Wikipedia pages dealing with Joseph Smith, Jr. Those pages are not "locked down."

[webbles]

I have my own theory. It is morally wrong to have sex with other women when you are married to one already. So how does one get around this? Use the US constitution (freedom of religion), and make your own religion where it's ok to have multiple sexual partners!

I have a really hard time seeing how this statement makes sense.  The first known second wife of Joseph Smith is 3 years after he started the church.  If you start a religion to have multiple sexual partners, why wait 3 years?  The next wife is 5 years after that and the next is 3 more years.  If he really started the church to have multiple sexual partners, he took a really long time getting around to it.

[Coreyb]

I have my own theory. It is morally wrong to have sex with other women when you are married to one already. So how does one get around this? Use the US constitution (freedom of religion), and make your own religion where it's ok to have multiple sexual partners! Search the internet, JS was known his whole life for making many grandiose claims and was known as a treasure hunter and known for trickery. He was extremely intelligent and charismatic as well, thus why he was able to gain many followers. He tricked Martin Harris to get funding, and when Lucy took a couple pages and told Martin that if JS was able to retranslate the page again then he was indeed a prophet of god. But then JS told Martin that because he lost the pages God forbid him to translate from those plates again. How convenient.

 

Reminds me of the South Park episode

 

Lucy Harris smart smart smart

Martin Harris dumb

Straight off the Southpark episode (yes I've seen it) and not even real history. See why its hard to take this seriously?

Edited March 24, 2014 by Coreyb

[Tiki]

Deleted

Edited March 24, 2014 by Tiki

[VideoGameJunkie]

Truth have you ever read the Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants? How could a single man make all that up? He was kind of uneducated at the age he translated it and it would take some kind of genius to come up with scriptures like that.

[Freedom]

So you feel polygamy is morally wrong. I presume you therefore reject the bible? What moral code has determined that polygamy is immoral? 

[Wanderer7]

 When did I say I love the church? I just stated that it is apart of my life because the majority of my family is mormon. In truth I think the church is a corporation who uses guilt and fear to funnel funds from their members to keep it running. But now they almost don't even need their member's tithing anymore because of all the assets they own such as property, hotels, and malls.

 

And like I said, please post LINKS that are NOT from anti-mormon websites or from lds.org or any other mormon sites that are obviously biased. Third party links only please, which includes wikipedia for the most part.

Let's take a look at all the wives JS had.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith's_wives

 

Emma Smith detested polygamy and that is why she disagreed with Brigham Young and didn't embark on the journey to the west with him and his group.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Emma_Smith

 

Then there are the Kinderhook Plates, which the church did admit they were a hoax but denied Joseph ever tried to translate them. Well of course they're going to make that claim! Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Personally I think he did and got burned, but that one's up in the air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_plates

 

Then the book of Abraham, which was nothing but run of the mill death scroll papyrus with the head of Osiris ripped off and Abraham's head put in it's place. Other scrolls depicting the EXACT same thing have been found in tombs in Egypt, also the Rosetta Stone had yet to be discovered so the means to translate ancient Egyptian did not yet exist, and Joseph did not use the Urim and Thummim to translate the papyrus.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2691644/posts

 

I've got a better idea. Instead of spamming the site with wikipedia references, go back and read the bazillion threads about each of these "secret" JS controversies that none of us "blind" Mormons have ever heard about. All of your posts about kinderhook, Abraham, etc. have been debunked thoroughly by serious scholars who don't consider wikipedia to be authoritative sources of history. By the way, you keep asking for links, but everything you've been talking about is common knowledge to most of us, so why don't we dispense with them?

 

Edited March 24, 2014 by Wanderer7

[thesometimesaint]

You can't really guarantee anything. But whatever. There are so many Mormons that have a blind testimony of the church because they were raised in it and fear for what happens to them after this life who don't really know anything about the church, because the church discourages reading anti-mormon material or any material that is damaging to the church.

 

I wasn't born or raised in the Church. Neither of my parents were members. I was 20 years old when I converted.So you are a plain ignorant little twit when you accuse me of having a blind testimony of the Church. I stay because of my love for God, his Restored gospel, the Church, its members, and the many blessing it have given me in my over 4 decades of faithful membership.  I have heard more anti crap than you will ever know about.

[Truth 101]

siiiiigh. I'm done. Yall may as well believe in magic.