Storm Rider Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 I am of the opinion that the physical manifestation of Jesus to a person for the purpose of that person becoming a special witness is spiritually ineffective. The subjective nature of how a person experiences spirituality can make a physical manifestation a limiting factor to revelation. For example one person may be more spiritually susceptible to dreams, another may be more spiritually influenced by mind impressions, or rational descernment. When all these other experiences are coupled with the spirit it can have a significant and lasting witness.For myself I doubt that Jesus appearing to me would convince me, more than I already know, of the reality and divinity of Jesus.I wonder if that is the same for apostles, other members of the church and other Christians. An apostle is a position of responsibility to witness of their witness however that was received. We only have to look at the life of Peter to see this personified. It was not until he received the Holy Spirit that he was able to stand against the persecution and questioning of the. He sat at the Master's feet for three years and yet promptly fell when questioned. It is the Holy Spirit that converts and strengthens the individual. The personal witnesses seldom edify anyone else except the person with whom he speaks/visits.
Paddy Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 We only have to look at the life of Peter to see this personified. It was not until he received the Holy Spirit that he was able to stand against the persecution and questioning of the. He sat at the Master's feet for three years and yet promptly fell when questioned. It is the Holy Spirit that converts and strengthens the individual. The personal witnesses seldom edify anyone else except the person with whom he speaks/visits.Agreed. It then makes me wonder why certain people expect that Apostles have had a visitation from Jesus. It stands to reason that most, if not all, have probably not. I suspect that we have built an expectation of this into our culture. I would also expect that if Jesus was to visit persons that he would be no respector of persons. I would expect Jesus to visit faithful persons tabard less of their station in life.
Robert F. Smith Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 Hmm. Of the top of my head, I can think of Pope Leo XIII hearing a conversation between Christ and the devil concerning the destruction of the Church (much like the story of Job). The vision was so intense that he immediately composed the prayer to St. Michael and then ordered it to be said after all low Masses. Besides that, however, there are MANY Saints in the Catholic Church who have had visions of Christ, and these visions are accepted as authentic and worthy of belief. St. Teresa of Avila comes to mind, but there are many more. The Catholic Church does not limit visions of Christ to the Pope and is open to anyone seeing Jesus or Mary (or another Saint), but the Church also rigorously investigates such claims.Thanks for that.Could you also perhaps give us a short primer on the status of the keys of Peter, which are so closely associated with the Pope? In that case, and that of the College of Cardinals, what is their apostolic status, if any? Is the seeking for inspiration by those high officials any different than that of laymen on retreat?
altersteve Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 The article mentions: "Occasionally during the past year I have been asked a question. Usually it comes as a curious, almost an idle, question about the qualifications to stand as a witness for Christ. The question they ask is, “Have you seen Him?” That is a question that I have never asked of another. I have not asked that question of my brethren in the Quorum, thinking that it would be so sacred and so personal that one would have to have some special inspiration, indeed, some authorization, even to ask it". Considering that the apostles recorded several appearances of Christ in the NewTestament, why should you not ask this question? Thanks,JimThose appearances were probably recorded with God's permission.
altersteve Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 Because I don't believe he existsI think you mean you don't believe he exists because you haven't seen him. What you said doesn't really make sense.
thesometimesaint Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 To prophesy means to testify of Christ, His mission, His death and resurrection , the atonement and its power to save.There is a lot of prophecy in the Old Testament about the future coming of Christ. There is prophecy of destruction of nations if there is no repentance. The Book of Mormon contains the same sort of prophecies. I know of no President of the Church that has not prophesied in such a manner.Now, if you want President Monson to stand in the next conference and declare that on June 23 , 2020, Manhattan will be destroyed by a tsunami , you just might be disappointed. There are a lot of those kinds of prophets. Al Gore comes to mind. Hurricane Sandy got a good start on it.
Storm Rider Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 Agreed.It then makes me wonder why certain people expect that Apostles have had a visitation from Jesus. It stands to reason that most, if not all, have probably not. I suspect that we have built an expectation of this into our culture.I would also expect that if Jesus was to visit persons that he would be no respector of persons. I would expect Jesus to visit faithful persons tabard less of their station in life. I think we sense or think the same things. I suspect that the visitations of Jesus are far more numerous than we know or understand. It is evident that we do not hear of them and I suspect why we don't is that they occur more with the normal, faithful servant rather than those in positions of authority. The pursuit of holiness is a journey for all disciples. Some disciples will have great visions while others will struggle with the absence of feelings for a long periods. We accept our lot and continue on the path regardless.
ERayR Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 Says who? Why is it too sacred? To some, some experiences are sacred. To others nothing is sacred. If you have to ask why I think it is safe to assume you have not experienced such an experience.
Anteojito Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 watch this video, "Special Witnesses"it's a bit dated but still good nonetheless! what makes you believe God doesn't exist? has he told you that?No, he has not told me that he doesn't exist. Does that mean I should believe in him?
Anteojito Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 I think you mean you don't believe he exists because you haven't seen him. What you said doesn't really make sense.How is that?
thesometimesaint Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 No, he has not told me that he doesn't exist. Does that mean I should believe in him? All you are saying is that you believe because you don't believe.
Anteojito Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 Secular scholars agree that the Buddha existed in real time, and that his teachings (while edited and passed on with some changes by his followers) are pretty much as he intended. Does Buddhism seem to you to provide good life lessons, and would you consider becoming a Buddhist -- if only to receive the practical benefits of meditation, for example? No belief in a god is required. By the way, most secular scholars who deal with such matters believe that there was a real Jesus. They simply don't accept that he was divine. Jews pretty much take the same position.I would agree with that. I don't have any problem with most of the teaching attributed to Jesus. I just don't believe that he was divine and that the historical Jesus is dead and gone. Same with the Buddha.
Anteojito Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 All you are saying is that you believe because you don't believe.I don't believe in God or Jesus. Do you believe in Thor, Pele, or Apollo?
Duncan Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 No, he has not told me that he doesn't exist. Does that mean I should believe in him? well, I think the best position you can take is you just don't know if he exists, if he hasn't said he doesn't exist and obviously you don't know if he does exist. So, one hand you can't say he exists but by the same token that doesn't mean he doesn't exist either
Anteojito Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 well, I think the best position you can take is you just don't know if he exists, if he hasn't said he doesn't exist and obviously you don't know if he does exist. So, one hand you can't say he exists but by the same token that doesn't mean he doesn't exist eitherThat is what I said originally, that I don't believe he exists. I have no proof that he does not exist, just as there is no real proof that he does. While I acknowledge that there is a possibility of a higher power, that does not mean he/she/it is anything like the Biblical god 1
thesometimesaint Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 I don't believe in God or Jesus. Do you believe in Thor, Pele, or Apollo? That there could have been a person named such? There probably was. Do I worship them as Gods. Not so much. I've never claimed to be an Atheist.
Anteojito Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 That there could have been a person named such? There probably was. Do I worship them as Gods. Not so much. I've never claimed to be an Atheist.I don't believe they were gods either. There was a time when people sincerely believed in them but that did not make them real just like people do with Jesus. To me he is no different than any of the other ancient gods.
thesometimesaint Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 I don't believe they were gods either. There was a time when people sincerely believed in them but that did not make them real just like people do with Jesus. To me he is no different than any of the other ancient gods. I'm fine with that. But your experience really is no marker for that of someone else. 1
Anteojito Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 I'm fine with that. But your experience really is no marker for that of someone else.Did I say it was?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted February 22, 2014 Posted February 22, 2014 I don't know if there ever was a real Jesus but I will grant that the legend of him exists. I will admit that for the most part the messages that are attributed to him are good life lessons. I disagree that he is the most influential being to ever exist. There are a lot more Buddhists and Muslims in the world.Muslims revere him as a Prophet, there are almost a Billion of them...so...not so.
JLHPROF Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 I don't believe in God or Jesus. That's ok, they believe in you - 1
JLHPROF Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 The article mentions: "Occasionally during the past year I have been asked a question. Usually it comes as a curious, almost an idle, question about the qualifications to stand as a witness for Christ. The question they ask is, “Have you seen Him?” That is a question that I have never asked of another. I have not asked that question of my brethren in the Quorum, thinking that it would be so sacred and so personal that one would have to have some special inspiration, indeed, some authorization, even to ask it". Considering that the apostles recorded several appearances of Christ in the NewTestament, why should you not ask this question? Thanks,Jim The difference between the apostles recording seeing Christ and the kind of visitation referred to in this quote is simple. One is an appearance, the other is the Calling and Election. An appearance may or may not need to be kept private. Receiving ones calling and election is absolutely nobody else's business, and usually follows higher ordinances which a person also promises not to confirm receiving. Joseph bore witness of seeing the Savior on several occasions, but to the best of my knowledge he did not publicly claim to have received his Calling and Election (Christ's hands laid upon his head and exaltation irrevocably confirmed) although there are scriptural references that imply he did.Lorenzo Snow saw Christ in the Salt Lake Temple but didn't record receiving his Calling and Election either. When people ask Apostles "Have you seen Him?" it can mean either of these, but the Apostolic calling to stand as a witness puts the weight of pursuing their Calling & Election on a man, and that is intensely personal.
Kenngo1969 Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 No. I have met a couple of guys named Jesus but nobody named Christ. Reminds me of the 1,235,575,250th time someone on this Board trotted out the "Mermans worship a diffurnt Jeezus" chestnut. He said, "My Jesus is from above. Your Jesus is from below." I replied, "You mean, your Jesus is from Canada, and my Jesus is from Mexico? Well, there are a lot of 'em down there, but they pronounce it Hay-SOOS." Sorry; couldn't resist. Carry on! 1
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2014 Posted February 23, 2014 Reminds me of the 1,235,575,250th time someone on this Board trotted out the "Mermans worship a diffurnt Jeezus" chestnut. He said, "My Jesus is from above. Your Jesus is from below." I replied, "You mean, your Jesus is from Canada, and my Jesus is from Mexico? Well, there are a lot of 'em down there, but they pronounce it Hay-SOOS." Sorry; couldn't resist. Carry on!Jose, can you see by the dawn's early light....
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