Calm Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 I don't believe having a problem in the past and has been resolved necessarily is an issue that needs to be disclosed....unless.....it is an addiction to which you might return, much to the detriment of your relationship and loved ones.I would agree.But I wonder how many husbands might be seriously thrown if they found out their wife had an abortion or if a wife found out their husbands weren't actually virgins as they had assumed.It is not so much that something is a sin as much as it was significant in someone's life.
Bernard Gui Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Another unpleasant aspect of it is when you run into the porn they're looking at yourself or they're stupid enough to surf in front of your children. That happened to a friend of mine. She came home early from a RS meeting and caught her husband looking at it in the presence of their kids. Apparently he thought they were too little to think much of it. So the lying is horrible, but you also feel like your home has been violated.You don't just feel like it because it has indeed been violated. 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) You have yet to provide the evidence that "most woman are upset by porn by nature". It is ridiculous to think that 70% of ACTIVE LDS (which includes the 12 Apostles and 1st Presidency) males are ADDICTED to porn.you can have a "problem" with pornography without it being an addiction, just as you can with substances, gambling, video games, etc.When any of those things rise to the level of addiction, there are serious consequences and life becomes very difficult. It's far better todeal with "problems" before they become addictions. Edited February 25, 2014 by Bernard Gui 1
SizeOfThatHeadAzul Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Hi There, New member so please accept my apologies if this is the wrong thread, still finding my feet. I've had a dilemma recently with a friend in relation to a porn/masturbation addiction, I've tried my best to help him and steer him in the right direction but he shuns any attempts I make, I've tried distancing myself from him as a result of this, but he inevitably turns up on my doorstep and within a short space of time his conversation will again turn to that of a sexual nature. Has anyone had experience of this with a family member or friend that they're happy to share, or if anyone else can offer some help I'd be extremely grateful. I don't want to lose the friendship, however this is starting to effect the wider community and I fear I will have no option but to cut all ties as I vehemently disagree with his views and actions. Just after a bit of a support really, hence the reason for taking the step to finally sign up rather than just browse. Thanks
Calm Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) I assume you are LDS, is that correct? What about your friend? Edited February 25, 2014 by calmoriah
SizeOfThatHeadAzul Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 I assume you are LDS, is that correct? What about your friend? We both are, although it would seem only one of us exhibits the behaviours you'd expect. It has always been an issue, but it's escalated more so in the last year I'd say, and for no apparent reason that I'm aware of. I'm all out of ideas, I've sat down and told him my concerns and he'll appear to be in agreement, but then reverts back soon after. Like I say, sorry if this is not the thread for this, I was a little confused as to where best to post it.
POP Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Some porn users have unsuccessfully tried to quit many times before. Their many failures make them resistant to try again. This may explain why your efforts to help your friend have not been successful. You may want to try a different approach, such as letting him know that the consequences of continued porn use are many, serious and negative. Jacob (Jacob 3:12) helped the men in his time overcome sexual sin by telling them of the "awful consequences" of it. Sometimes we all need this reminder to wake us up. It is important to do this without shame. Shame only makes it worse. You may want to then focus on the fact that it can be overcome and successfully treated but not with one's willpower alone. Suggest a 12-step program (I think the church's Addiction Recovery Program is excellent). Many reject 12-step programs with groups because of the fear of humiliation so you may suggest working through the workbook with him. You may also suggest a different approach entirely. Cognitive behavior programs, such as Power Over Pornography, can work well for some and tend to have a lower relapse rate. I hope you're able to "wake" your friend and help him realize the blessings of a porn-free life.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) How can masturbation without pornography not include committing adultery in your heart, especially if you are married and are under covenant?Just to be clear on the level of sin we are talking about here. In LDS parlance, sins have varying severity. At the top of the list is denying the holy ghost. Second is murder. Adultery is third and I would hope that we could agree that committing adultery is much less of a sin than committing murder. So here is the order: Deny the Holy Ghost > Murder >> Adultery. In this thread there has been a lot of talk about the seriousness of masturbation and "pornography." (I put pornography in quotes since it is so difficult to define. Some would say that it is "any picture or narrative that feeds the carnal man within"). Let's just talk about masturbation without pornography here since that's the post that you are responding to. In the sermon on the mount Jesus said "You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, ‘You shall not murder’; and ‘whoever murders shall be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgment; and if you insult a brother or sister,[g]you will be liable to the council; and if you say, ‘You fool,’ you will be liable to the hell of fire." So here we establish that anger, insults, and simply labeling someone a fool is like murdering. We then read "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart."So looking on a woman with lust is like committing adultery with her. Note to commit adultery you have to be married, so Jesus is specifically talking to married men here. Okay so lets arrange the sins in order here: Deny Holy Ghost > Murder >> Adultery Being Angry / insulting someone >> married man lusting after another woman Okay now lets talk about masturbation which Jesus didn't talk about here (and to my knowledge the scriptures are completely silent on this matter). If a married man masturbates, thinks about his wife how is this adultery? Next how can you use this scripture (which specifically talks about adultery not fornication) to justify talking to unmarried men / women at all? Finally I'd like to address the guilt that many young men and young women feel with regard to masturbation. It is my opinion that it is totally out of proportion with the level of sin that it is. Even if we make the faulty assumption that unmarried young women and men can commit "adultery" in their hearts, this sin would have to be considered far less problematic than being angry at their brother or sister. When was the last time that we encouraged young men and women to confess to their bishop every time they had an argument? What about abstaining from blessing / partaking the sacrament if they got mad during the week? Edited February 25, 2014 by SeekingUnderstanding
jkwilliams Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Hi There, New member so please accept my apologies if this is the wrong thread, still finding my feet. I've had a dilemma recently with a friend in relation to a porn/masturbation addiction, I've tried my best to help him and steer him in the right direction but he shuns any attempts I make, I've tried distancing myself from him as a result of this, but he inevitably turns up on my doorstep and within a short space of time his conversation will again turn to that of a sexual nature. Has anyone had experience of this with a family member or friend that they're happy to share, or if anyone else can offer some help I'd be extremely grateful. I don't want to lose the friendship, however this is starting to effect the wider community and I fear I will have no option but to cut all ties as I vehemently disagree with his views and actions. Just after a bit of a support really, hence the reason for taking the step to finally sign up rather than just browse. Thanks My two cents: You don't have any power to steer your friend in the right direction, and since he rejects your help anyway, you're not really doing him any good by offering help with this specific issue. If it were me and I wanted to keep the friendship, I'd tell him I disapprove of what he's doing, that he obviously refuses my help and advice, and that if he wants me to continue to be his friend, he needs to leave that part of his life out of the friendship. My wife has a really close friend whose husband is domineering, verbally and emotionally abusive, and one of the most dishonest people I have ever met. (Yes, he's LDS, FWIW.) The friend used to vent all the time to my wife about the husband and how awful her situation was, but when my wife offered any advice or even agreed, the friend would defend her husband and blame it all on herself. In the end, my wife told her that she could not deal with any more discussion of the husband and that, unless things became dangerous or reached a point where the friend needed to leave, they needed to keep the husband and his issues out of the friendship. She's still with her husband, and my wife is still her friend, but they don't talk about the husband. I think that may be the case with you. Offering help is fine as long as someone is willing to listen, but your friend is not. You obviously aren't comfortable with the sexual nature of your conversations (who would be?), but he doesn't respect that. So, I'd say the friendship must respect your boundaries, or it's no longer a friendship.
SizeOfThatHeadAzul Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Some porn users have unsuccessfully tried to quit many times before. Their many failures make them resistant to try again. This may explain why your efforts to help your friend have not been successful. You may want to try a different approach, such as letting him know that the consequences of continued porn use are many, serious and negative. Jacob (Jacob 3:12) helped the men in his time overcome sexual sin by telling them of the "awful consequences" of it. Sometimes we all need this reminder to wake us up. It is important to do this without shame. Shame only makes it worse. You may want to then focus on the fact that it can be overcome and successfully treated but not with one's willpower alone. Suggest a 12-step program (I think the church's Addiction Recovery Program is excellent). Many reject 12-step programs with groups because of the fear of humiliation so you may suggest working through the workbook with him. You may also suggest a different approach entirely. Cognitive behavior programs, such as Power Over Pornography, can work well for some and tend to have a lower relapse rate. I hope you're able to "wake" your friend and help him realize the blessings of a porn-free life. Wise words indeed. It recently escalated to a more public level as well, masturbation within the confines of his own home does not seem satisfactory and he's taken to masturbation in parks and in his car. I feel the amount of porn he views has blinded him to what is acceptable and natural, almost like he is trying to live out fantasies that he has seen in these vile movies, they have truly poisoned his mind.
SizeOfThatHeadAzul Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Apologies I somehow included my response in the quote above.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Some porn users have unsuccessfully tried to quit many times before. Their many failures make them resistant to try again. This may explain why your efforts to help your friend have not been successful. You may want to try a different approach, such as letting him know that the consequences of continued porn use are many, serious and negative. Jacob (Jacob 3:12) helped the men in his time overcome sexual sin by telling them of the "awful consequences" of it. Sometimes we all need this reminder to wake us up. It is important to do this without shame. Shame only makes it worse. You may want to then focus on the fact that it can be overcome and successfully treated but not with one's willpower alone. Suggest a 12-step program (I think the church's Addiction Recovery Program is excellent). Many reject 12-step programs with groups because of the fear of humiliation so you may suggest working through the workbook with him. You may also suggest a different approach entirely. Cognitive behavior programs, such as Power Over Pornography, can work well for some and tend to have a lower relapse rate. I hope you're able to "wake" your friend and help him realize the blessings of a porn-free life. Wise words indeed. It recently escalated to a more public level as well, masturbation within the confines of his own home does not seem satisfactory and he's taken to masturbation in parks and in his car. I feel the amount of porn he views has blinded him to what is acceptable and natural, almost like he is trying to live out fantasies that he has seen in these vile movies, they have truly poisoned his mind. Yeah, your friends issues go beyond typical pornography use and he probably needs professional help. I don't think anything you are going to say will help him. Maybe an intervention?
SizeOfThatHeadAzul Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Some porn users have unsuccessfully tried to quit many times before. Their many failures make them resistant to try again. This may explain why your efforts to help your friend have not been successful. You may want to try a different approach, such as letting him know that the consequences of continued porn use are many, serious and negative. Jacob (Jacob 3:12) helped the men in his time overcome sexual sin by telling them of the "awful consequences" of it. Sometimes we all need this reminder to wake us up. It is important to do this without shame. Shame only makes it worse. You may want to then focus on the fact that it can be overcome and successfully treated but not with one's willpower alone. Suggest a 12-step program (I think the church's Addiction Recovery Program is excellent). Many reject 12-step programs with groups because of the fear of humiliation so you may suggest working through the workbook with him. You may also suggest a different approach entirely. Cognitive behavior programs, such as Power Over Pornography, can work well for some and tend to have a lower relapse rate. I hope you're able to "wake" your friend and help him realize the blessings of a porn-free life. So are you suggesting it's ok to continue the friendship as long as he does not speak of what he is doing? Kind of like the way your wife and her friend continue to have a friendship as long as the friend does not discuss her issue? It's also a massive invasion of my space in that I've come home after leaving him in my apartment to find stains on the curtains, these have clearly only come from one place. The more I describe his behaviour and say it out loud the more I think maybe we are best off going our separate ways.
jkwilliams Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 So are you suggesting it's ok to continue the friendship as long as he does not speak of what he is doing? Kind of like the way your wife and her friend continue to have a friendship as long as the friend does not discuss her issue? It's also a massive invasion of my space in that I've come home after leaving him in my apartment to find stains on the curtains, these have clearly only come from one place. The more I describe his behaviour and say it out loud the more I think maybe we are best off going our separate ways. In that case, your friend has no sense of boundaries, which makes me wonder in what sense this person is a friend. If it were me, I'd just end the friendship.
SizeOfThatHeadAzul Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 In that case, your friend has no sense of boundaries, which makes me wonder in what sense this person is a friend. If it were me, I'd just end the friendship. A friend in the sense that we grew close many years ago and planned on spending our lives together as life partners, that was before our faith drew us to the conclusion that what we were doing was wrong on every level. I was hesitant to call him anything more than just a friend for fear of being castigated within my first few posts. I appreciate that our relationship was contrary to the will of God, hence there is no longer a sexual relationship. I guess distancing myself is going to be the only logical solution.
jkwilliams Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 A friend in the sense that we grew close many years ago and planned on spending our lives together as life partners, that was before our faith drew us to the conclusion that what we were doing was wrong on every level. I was hesitant to call him anything more than just a friend for fear of being castigated within my first few posts. I appreciate that our relationship was contrary to the will of God, hence there is no longer a sexual relationship. I guess distancing myself is going to be the only logical solution. Thank you for clarifying. This seems to be more about you wanting to get out of that lifestyle than it is about your friend. If you don't want to engage in sexual behavior with this guy, it's probably best to walk away.
Grudunza Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 As a recovering addict in a different sense than this topic (although there is resonance to addiction in general and some crossover), I can tell you that addicts have big problems recovering, or getting started with recovery, if they persist with the "people, places and things" of their addiction. That includes you, and apparently, your "place" as well. You're not doing him or yourself a favor by trying to persist in any kind of friendship... at least anything beyond conversationally to continue to encourage him to seek help.A good friend of mine from the old days would call me now and then since I've been clean, asking for help because he can't stop using. I kept telling him, first of all not to call when he's high... you can't get something spiritual into someone while they're in the state of using... but also that the 12 Step program worked for me. After repeated calls, where he continued to use but never went to any of the 12 step meetings, I finally said look, I told you what worked for me... That's all I can offer you, really. Until/unless you try that, stop calling me and asking for help when you're high. I had to be blunt, but it sets another barrier to his using... We can't enable people like that, and sometimes giving them a sympathetic ear when they keep screwing up is doing exactly that. It's been a while since I've heard from him, and it sucks, 'cause I love him very much as a friend and hate to see him in that mode. But we can't rescue addicts, only offer the solution that's worked for us and be there to help walk with them when THEY are truly ready for a change.
SizeOfThatHeadAzul Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 As a recovering addict in a different sense than this topic (although there is resonance to addiction in general and some crossover), I can tell you that addicts have big problems recovering, or getting started with recovery, if they persist with the "people, places and things" of their addiction. That includes you, and apparently, your "place" as well. You're not doing him or yourself a favor by trying to persist in any kind of friendship... at least anything beyond conversationally to continue to encourage him to seek help. Thanks for the advice from everyone, appreciate you taking the time to respond.As for the above, you may well be right, and given your own recent experiences it's only right that I take that on board. I myself still have urges and it's a difficult situation, I've arranged to have a sit down and discussion with him and maybe have one last shot at trying to see if we can get some help in place. I'll report back either later today or tomorrow hopefully.
Kenngo1969 Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Not to castigate a new poster unduly, since new posters cannot start their own threads (I believe the post count at which they are allowed to do so is ... 25?), but ... Ahem! ... back to the topic: Why can't Power Over Pornography and Twelve-Step coexist? Why can't they complement each other? Just from a cursory examination of what's available about the former on Amazon, it appears to be self-help oriented. I'm all for self-help, but, while addiction isn't one of my issues, I've benefitted from both self-help and group approaches in dealing with other mental health issues (often simultaneously). Why couldn't the same be true of someone who's addicted to pornography with regard to Twelve-Step and Power Over Pornography?
Popular Post MorningStar Posted February 25, 2014 Popular Post Posted February 25, 2014 You have yet to provide the evidence that "most woman are upset by porn by nature". It is ridiculous to think that 70% of ACTIVE LDS (which includes the 12 Apostles and 1st Presidency) males are ADDICTED to porn.Well, I went searching for a study, but all that got me was porn, which made me feel upset because I'm a woman. 5
SizeOfThatHeadAzul Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Not to castigate a new poster unduly, since new posters cannot start their own threads (I believe the post count at which they are allowed to do so is ... 25?), but ... Ahem! ... back to the topic: Why can't Power Over Pornography and Twelve-Step coexist? Why can't they complement each other? Just from a cursory examination of what's available about the former on Amazon, it appears to be self-help oriented. I'm all for self-help, but, while addiction isn't one of my issues, I've benefitted from both self-help and group approaches in dealing with other mental health issues (often simultaneously). Why couldn't the same be true of someone who's addicted to pornography with regard to Twelve-Step and Power Over Pornography? That's correct, 25 posts before I can start a thread, so I took the option of posting in the one that seemed most relevant, sorry if that's detracted from the original debate but I was just seeking some help from those that probably best understand. Thanks though....
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