Religion And "pornography Addiction", Reality And Perception Study.

[bluebell]

I have no opinion on what God wants everyone to do, and I don't care what the church teaches, so long as I can protect my kids from the more destructive teachings. I think it's crazy and very unhealthy to try and banish all sexual thoughts from your life, so if the church were to teach that, I would make sure my kids knew I think that's a terrible approach. But I'm not suggesting my approach is the best for everyone. So, go ahead and tell me I'm justifying my actions. It doesn't matter.

 

Of course you are justifying your actions.  We all justify our actions.  None of us do anything-good or bad-without having justification for it.  I was not being snarky when i wrote that, i was just describing your post as accurately as possible.  

 

You told me what you believe, and then you explained why it's good to believe it.  That is the very definition of justifying something.

 

As for your beliefs about God, that was the point of my conversation with Cinepro.  He said that he didn't think God cared about a little lust, and i responded with questions regarding wanting evidence on why he thought God didn't care.

 

If you have no opinion on that topic, i'm not sure why you felt your comments on my post were relevant to that conversation.  

[jkwilliams]

Of course you are justifying your actions.  We all justify our actions.  None of us do anything-good or bad-without having justification for it.  I was not being snarky when i wrote that, i was just describing your post as accurately as possible.  

 

You told me what you believe, and then you explained why it's good to believe it.  That is the very definition of justifying something.

 

As for your beliefs about God, that was the point of my conversation with Cinepro.  He said that he didn't think God cared about a little lust, and i responded with questions regarding wanting evidence on why he thought God didn't care.

 

If you have no opinion on that topic, i'm not sure why you felt your comments on my post were relevant to that conversation.  

 

I was responding to the discussion about "a little lust" and whether it's a good or bad thing. I was trying to clarify what lust is. IMO, it's taking natural sexual desire and running with it. If I see an attractive woman and am briefly aroused, that's completely natural, and I don't consider that lust. If, however, I began fantasizing about that attractive woman and masturbated to that fantasy, that would be lust. If God is just, and I believe he is, I can't imagine he'd condemn anyone for having the sexual feelings that are part of our mortal existence.

[bluebell]

I was responding to the discussion about "a little lust" and whether it's a good or bad thing. I was trying to clarify what lust is. IMO, it's taking natural sexual desire and running with it. If I see an attractive woman and am briefly aroused, that's completely natural, and I don't consider that lust. If, however, I began fantasizing about that attractive woman and masturbated to that fantasy, that would be lust. If God is just, and I believe he is, I can't imagine he'd condemn anyone for having the sexual feelings that are part of our mortal existence.

 

I don't think anyone on this thread, or any teaching of the church, has suggested that we are condemned for having sexual feelings.

 

However, Cinepro's example was of a boy intentionally watching kate upton do jumping jacks.  If i understand what you are saying, that does fit your definition of lust, as it involves taking natural sexual desire and seeking out situations which encourage that desire to be intensified and gratified.  

 

So, that would make it a 'bad thing' wouldn't it?  And if it's a bad thing, then wouldn't God care if someone was doing it?

[jkwilliams]

I don't think anyone on this thread, or any teaching of the church, has suggested that we are condemned for having sexual feelings.

 

However, Cinepro's example was of a boy intentionally watching kate upton do jumping jacks.  If i understand what you are saying, that does fit your definition of lust, as it involves taking natural sexual desire and seeking out situations which encourage that desire to be intensified and gratified.  

 

So, that would make it a 'bad thing' wouldn't it?  And if it's a bad thing, then wouldn't God care if someone was doing it?

 

For me, lust involves intent more than intensity. A 14-year-old boy is going to masturbate, no matter what anyone says. Does he spend a lot of time and effort finding means of arousal? To me, that would be when he crosses over to lust. But then I am not God, so I don't have quite the ability to discern what's going on in other people's lives.

 

I have 3 sons, and I would much rather know they masturbate (I don't have to ask to know that) than feel the overwhelming guilt and shame I felt for having sexual feelings as a teenager. I hope God feels the same way.

[bluebell]

For me, lust involves intent more than intensity. A 14-year-old boy is going to masturbate, no matter what anyone says. Does he spend a lot of time and effort finding means of arousal? To me, that would be when he crosses over to lust. But then I am not God, so I don't have quite the ability to discern what's going on in other people's lives.

 

I have 3 sons, and I would much rather know they masturbate (I don't have to ask to know that) than feel the overwhelming guilt and shame I felt for having sexual feelings as a teenager. I hope God feels the same way.

 

Fair enough. Like i said, when it comes to ourselves or our children, we justify our beliefs and actions (and what we teach) using our own experiences with God and our own evidence of what He wants from us.  He'll judge whether we were in line with Him or not.

 

However, the second we start declaring what God wants for all children, or for all adults, or whatever, then we had better have something more to fall back on than "because this makes sense to me".

 

And maybe Cinepro does have evidence which he believes supports how God doesn't care if 17 year old boys lust or sexually objectify women a little bit.  It was a sincere question.

[Bernard Gui]

I have been involved in treating people who have problems with pornography viewing and accompanying masturbation. There are a few studies that dispute the consequences of pornography addiction and ascribe them to religion. The vast majority of the studies (scientific, survey-based and observation-based) affirm real and negative consequences for pornography viewing. Some lives and families are being destroyed but all are being negatively impacted (You can see a list of consequences and the sources at www.poweroverpornography.com/consequences).

 

My experience in trying to help those who want to overcome porn affirms the latter: porn-viewing's consequences to the viewer and his or her closest relationships are significant, negative and very real. They become most clear to the viewer who has abstained from viewing for at least six months. The positive results from abstinence clarify and magnify the negative consequences of viewing.

 

For those confused at the various studies and assertions, the best way to test them is to stop viewing pornography for six months and then compare one's personal situation before and after. I think they can then tell for themselves what the real consequences are and if it's made up by religion or real.

 

The problem is how to overcome viewing. Whether you call it addiction or not, it can be very difficult to stop for an extended period. 12-step programs, including the Addiction Recovery Program, can be of great help but tend to have a high relapse rate. Cognitive behavior-based programs, such as Power Over Pornography, are working for many and seem to have a lower relapse rate. The important point is getting help to stop. Regardless of the rationalizations and justifications, porn viewing can be harmful and one can know best if they try living without it.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. This confirms all that I have learned about this unfortunate.......whatever you want to call it. And whatever the response, the most important thing is to seek help and not do it on your own. This addiction is secretive and private in nature, not commonly shared like substances, so coming forward to seek help is very difficult. Help is available!

[Senator]

 This addiction is secretive and private in nature, not commonly shared like substances

 

I wish we could explore why that is a little more. Would it be better if we could change the nature to be "like other substance addictions"? Would it free men and women to be more open and not secretive about their sexual addictions, by avoiding some of the unhealthy guilt/stigma?

Edited February 20, 2014 by Senator

[Bernard Gui]

Given what the scriptures say, what evidence do you have to support the idea that God doesn't really care when we lust after other people a little bit?

I'm thinking specifically of where the scriptures teach that anyone who lusts after another is guilty of sin.

And that God can look at no sin with any degree of allowance.

If we are going to put these things forward as things that the church should be teaching about God, then let's make sure we can support them.

The Lord gave this commandment multiple times:

 

D&C 63:16 And verily I say unto you, as I have said before, he that looketh on a woman to lust after her, or if any shall commit adultery in their hearts, they shall not have the Spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear.  

 

Viewing pornography is committing adultery in the heart and betrays temple covenants.

[bluebell]

For me, lust involves intent more than intensity. A 14-year-old boy is going to masturbate, no matter what anyone says. Does he spend a lot of time and effort finding means of arousal? To me, that would be when he crosses over to lust. But then I am not God, so I don't have quite the ability to discern what's going on in other people's lives.

 

I have 3 sons, and I would much rather know they masturbate (I don't have to ask to know that) than feel the overwhelming guilt and shame I felt for having sexual feelings as a teenager. I hope God feels the same way.

 

Just one more thought.

 

I really don't understand the argument that if someone is going to do something, then God doesn't really care that much and it's not a big deal and no one should feel guilty about it (and maybe that's not what you were saying, but i've heard it other places).

 

I'm talking about when someone says 'boys are going to masturbate' and then uses that as justification for 'so God will understand and would never want them to feel guilt or shame for doing it'.

 

To me, such an argument makes no sense and is completely unreasonable given what we generally believe about God and our human weaknesses.

 

I mean, would we tell our kids when they are in pre-school 'look, i know you are going to lie to me at some point as you are growing up.  I understand, and would never want you to feel guilt or shame for doing that.  It's o.k."

 

Or would we ever say to an adult we are teaching about the gospel 'losing your temper is going to happen.  It is completely inevitable.  You will get angry at someone eventually.  God will understand and would never want you to feel guilty or shame for losing your temper.  It's natural, and everyone does it'.

 

Why do we suggest that God cares very much that we control our other passions and weaknesses, and that He wants us to feel guilt when we sin so that we can repent and return to Him, except when it's a relatively minor sexual issue.  In that case, He completely understands and He's o.k. with it as long as it's not that big of a deal?

 

If someone doesn't believe that masturbation is ever a sin, then that is different.  I know people who think that looking at pornography is great, and in such cases, i don't expect to find their beliefs valid or reasonable from my point of view.  

 

It's those people who think it is sinful, except when it's occasionally done by boys ages 13-20 something, that i don't get.

[Bernard Gui]

Sexual arousal is part of life. The answer is not to banish all sexual thoughts and desires from ourselves, as that would be extremely unhealthy, not to mention impossible. In obsessing over not thinking about sex, we make ourselves think about sex even more.

 

The key for me is to keep everything in perspective. I recognize that, if I see a beautiful woman, I might get aroused. Forcing myself to avert my gaze from every attractive women would be silly, to the point that I would probably start feeling "tempted" to look and feel guilty if I did look. It's preferable just to say, there goes an attractive woman instead of beating myself up over getting slightly aroused.

 

Lust, to me, is about taking that natural arousal and running with it. Unfortunately, too many people seem to think that all sexual feelings are lustful and must be banished. Makes for some very screwed-up attitudes about sex.

Since we covenant to keep our desires within the bounds set by God, it seems to me we are under obligation to fight the good fight and endure to the end regarding sexual feelings, too.

[bluebell]

The Lord gave this commandment multiple times:

 

D&C 63:16 And verily I say unto you, as I have said before, he that looketh on a woman to lust after her, or if any shall commit adultery in their hearts, they shall not have the Spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear.  

 

Viewing pornography is committing adultery in the heart and betrays temple covenants.

 

I completely agree.

 

I think it's also a sin against the 2nd commandment, as how can you love someone as you love yourself when you are turning them into an object to be used for your own sexual pleasure.

 

I don't believe that watching Kate Upton doing jumping jacks would necessarily be pornography, but since a young man would use such a thing for similar purposes (for sexual arousal and gratification), I am interesting in understanding why Cinepro thinks God wouldn't mind.

[Bernard Gui]

I have no opinion on what God wants everyone to do, and I don't care what the church teaches, so long as I can protect my kids from the more destructive teachings. I think it's crazy and very unhealthy to try and banish all sexual thoughts from your life, so if the church were to teach that, I would make sure my kids knew I think that's a terrible approach. But I'm not suggesting my approach is the best for everyone. So, go ahead and tell me I'm justifying my actions. It doesn't matter.

No one is suggesting banishing all sexual thoughts from life, but we are under covenant to learn how to keep them within the bounds set by God. 

[jkwilliams]

Just one more thought.

 

I really don't understand the argument that if someone is going to do something, then God doesn't really care that much and it's not a big deal and no one should feel guilty about it (and maybe that's not what you were saying, but i've heard it other places).

 

I'm talking about when someone says 'boys are going to masturbate' and then uses that as justification for 'so God will understand and would never want them to feel guilt or shame for doing it'.

 

To me, such an argument makes no sense and is completely unreasonable given what we generally believe about God and our human weaknesses.

 

I mean, would we tell our kids when they are in pre-school 'look, i know you are going to lie to me at some point as you are growing up.  I understand, and would never want you to feel guilt or shame for doing that.  It's o.k."

 

Or would we ever say to an adult we are teaching about the gospel 'losing your temper is going to happen.  It is completely inevitable.  You will get angry at someone eventually.  God will understand and would never want you to feel guilty or shame for losing your temper.  It's natural, and everyone does it'.

 

Why do we suggest that God cares very much that we control our other passions and weaknesses, and that He wants us to feel guilt when we sin so that we can repent and return to Him, except when it's a relatively minor sexual issue.  In that case, He completely understands and He's o.k. with it as long as it's not that big of a deal?

 

If someone doesn't believe that masturbation is ever a sin, then that is different.  I know people who think that looking at pornography is great, and in such cases, i don't expect to find their beliefs valid or reasonable from my point of view.  

 

It's those people who think it is sinful, except when it's occasionally done by boys ages 13-20 something, that i don't get.

 

I'm not opining about "sin" but rather about unnecessary guilt and shame.

 

Your example about losing your temper is a good one. Anger is a perfectly natural emotion to feel at various times for various reasons. Losing your temper is an entirely different matter. I almost never lose my temper, but I do feel anger from time to time. I don't feel I need to repent of being angry in those situations. But I do feel bad when I lose my temper and believe I need to repent of it. Bridling my passions doesn't mean I don't get angry, but it means I try hard not to lose my temper.

 

For me, masturbation and sexual desire are part of human nature, just like getting angry.

 

During my teenage years I tried very hard to follow Elder Packer's counsel to keep my thoughts clean at all times, and I interpreted that counsel as saying I should banish sexual thoughts and desires altogether. Being human, I failed at that, and I felt incredible guilt and shame. I didn't even masturbate, but I felt extremely guilty for having sexual thoughts.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's a difference between sexual desire and lust, just as there is a difference between anger and losing one's temper. It's not helpful at all to lump sexual desire in with lust and say that both must be banished.

[Bernard Gui]

I wish we could explore why that is a little more. Would it be better if we could change the nature to be "like other substance addictions"? Would it free men and women to be more open and not secretive about their sexual addictions, by avoiding some of the unhealthy guilt/stigma?

I think we are moving as a society and as a church to more openness about sexual addictions. At least we are now admitting (the OP of this thread notwithstanding) that there are such things and that they are extremely destructive. Treatment is becoming more readily available, and hopefully, priesthood leaders are becoming better equipped at helping individuals. It is my belief that all men struggle with this to some degree (I won't be so bold as to speak for the sisters), but our goal should be to observe the covenant to keep it within the bounds set by God. Now the question may arise, what are the bounds set by God? Some here would have us believe he winks at a little lust here and there, but in the end, do we not all want to be purified from all worldly lusts? If Jesus says not to look on a woman to lust after her, do we really want to rationalize and justify a little peek? IMO, it's a life-long quest and eventual victory only comes through relying on the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

[Gray]

Given what the scriptures say, what evidence do you have to support the idea that God doesn't really care when we lust after other people a little bit?

I'm thinking specifically of where the scriptures teach that anyone who lusts after another is guilty of sin.

And that God can look at no sin with any degree of allowance.

If we are going to put these things forward as things that the church should be teaching about God, then let's make sure we can support them.

 

The scriptures do say something about lust (coveting) but they are curiously silent on masturbation. 

[jkwilliams]

Since we covenant to keep our desires within the bounds set by God, it seems to me we are under obligation to fight the good fight and endure to the end regarding sexual feelings, too.

 

I don't think that it's a good fight at all to try to banish all sexual desire from our lives. The covenant says that we are to control our desires, not banish them.

[jkwilliams]

I think we are moving as a society and as a church to more openness about sexual addictions. At least we are now admitting (the OP of this thread notwithstanding) that there are such things and that they are extremely destructive. Treatment is becoming more readily available, and hopefully, priesthood leaders are becoming better equipped at helping individuals. It is my belief that all men struggle with this to some degree (I won't be so bold as to speak for the sisters), but our goal should be to observe the covenant to keep it within the bounds set by God. Now the question may arise, what are the bounds set by God? Some here would have us believe he winks at a little lust here and there, but in the end, do we not all want to be purified from all worldly lusts? If Jesus says not to look on a woman to lust after her, do we really want to rationalize and justify a little peek? IMO, it's a life-long quest and eventual victory only comes through relying on the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

 

I don't see suppressing all sexual desire as healthy or as any kind of victory. I tried that, and it resulted in the seriously screwed-up person I am today.

[bluebell]

I'm not opining about "sin" but rather about unnecessary guilt and shame.

 

 

 

I realize that, but in a religious conversation, they are inevitably connected.

 

If something IS a sin, then guilt and shame ARE necessary.  If it's not a sin, then those feelings are unnecessary.  

 

Therefore, one must first know whether or not something is sinful before they can then declare whether or not someone should feel guilt for doing it.

 

It doesn't make sense, in a religious conversation, to say, i don't know if it's sinful or not, but no one should feel guilt for doing it.  If you don't know if it's sinful, then you also don't know if guilt is necessary.  It's that simple.

[Bernard Gui]

Just one more thought.

 

I really don't understand the argument that if someone is going to do something, then God doesn't really care that much and it's not a big deal and no one should feel guilty about it (and maybe that's not what you were saying, but i've heard it other places).

 

I'm talking about when someone says 'boys are going to masturbate' and then uses that as justification for 'so God will understand and would never want them to feel guilt or shame for doing it'.

 

To me, such an argument makes no sense and is completely unreasonable given what we generally believe about God and our human weaknesses.

 

I mean, would we tell our kids when they are in pre-school 'look, i know you are going to lie to me at some point as you are growing up.  I understand, and would never want you to feel guilt or shame for doing that.  It's o.k."

 

Or would we ever say to an adult we are teaching about the gospel 'losing your temper is going to happen.  It is completely inevitable.  You will get angry at someone eventually.  God will understand and would never want you to feel guilty or shame for losing your temper.  It's natural, and everyone does it'.

 

Why do we suggest that God cares very much that we control our other passions and weaknesses, and that He wants us to feel guilt when we sin so that we can repent and return to Him, except when it's a relatively minor sexual issue.  In that case, He completely understands and He's o.k. with it as long as it's not that big of a deal?

 

If someone doesn't believe that masturbation is ever a sin, then that is different.  I know people who think that looking at pornography is great, and in such cases, i don't expect to find their beliefs valid or reasonable from my point of view.  

 

It's those people who think it is sinful, except when it's occasionally done by boys ages 13-20 something, that i don't get.

Because this is so intensely personal, private, dwelling in the innermost regions of our being. Sexuality and godliness seem to be intertwined, just as sexuality and perversion are inextricably connected. The greatest power God and we have is the creation of life. Satan's counterfeit is to destroy that which is most beautiful and creative, and degrade and dehumanize it in whatever way possible...all in the name of "creativity" and "humanity." We are seeing all the possibilities blossoming around us....even coming into our sanctuary homes and private places. It is a powerful tool for good and for evil. We should err on the side of good, IMO.

[bluebell]

The scriptures do say something about lust (coveting) but they are curiously silent on masturbation. 

 

I'm not assuming that masturbation is part of the 'watching kate upton' example.  My questions remain valid without having to imply that is occurring.

[bluebell]

I don't think that it's a good fight at all to try to banish all sexual desire from our lives. The covenant says that we are to control our desires, not banish them.

 

BG has said that no one is suggesting banishing all sexual desire from our lives.  See post #187 specifically.  

[Bernard Gui]

I completely agree.

 

I think it's also a sin against the 2nd commandment, as how can you love someone as you love yourself when you are turning them into an object to be used for your own sexual pleasure.

 

I don't believe that watching Kate Upton doing jumping jacks would necessarily be pornography, but since a young man would use such a thing for similar purposes (for sexual arousal and gratification), I am interesting in understanding why Cinepro thinks God wouldn't mind.

 

I'm not opining about "sin" but rather about unnecessary guilt and shame.

 

Your example about losing your temper is a good one. Anger is a perfectly natural emotion to feel at various times for various reasons. Losing your temper is an entirely different matter. I almost never lose my temper, but I do feel anger from time to time. I don't feel I need to repent of being angry in those situations. But I do feel bad when I lose my temper and believe I need to repent of it. Bridling my passions doesn't mean I don't get angry, but it means I try hard not to lose my temper.

 

For me, masturbation and sexual desire are part of human nature, just like getting angry.

 

During my teenage years I tried very hard to follow Elder Packer's counsel to keep my thoughts clean at all times, and I interpreted that counsel as saying I should banish sexual thoughts and desires altogether. Being human, I failed at that, and I felt incredible guilt and shame. I didn't even masturbate, but I felt extremely guilty for having sexual thoughts.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's a difference between sexual desire and lust, just as there is a difference between anger and losing one's temper. It's not helpful at all to lump sexual desire in with lust and say that both must be banished.

It doesn't matter where we've been as far as sexual sin is concerned, it's all about where we are now.

[Bernard Gui]

The scriptures do say something about lust (coveting) but they are curiously silent on masturbation. 

So, it must be OK?

Edited February 20, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

I don't think that it's a good fight at all to try to banish all sexual desire from our lives. The covenant says that we are to control our desires, not banish them.

As I said above, no one is suggesting banning all sexual desires, but we are under covenant to keep them within the bounds set by God. What do you think those

bounds are? They are clearly set forth in the covenant.......

Edited February 20, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

I don't see suppressing all sexual desire as healthy or as any kind of victory. I tried that, and it resulted in the seriously screwed-up person I am today.

That is an unfortunate outcome. There is help available and it is powerful! 

Edited February 20, 2014 by Bernard Gui