frank_jessop Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 One's pornography use may not fit the clinical definition of an addiction but that doesn't mean it is not harmful. For example, a married man who has the habit of looking at porn alone and doing the "m" word once or twice a week. Wouldn't that be harmful to a marriage even though it is not technically an addiction? Why would looking at pornography once or twice a week be harmful? Has either spouse been conditioned to believe such would be harmful? It certainly sounds as though if it happened in your household it would be harmful, but what is the cause and affect of the harm? Inherently harmful or conditioned harm? I will not defend pornography use. I think the gist of the article from the first post, is that clinicians needs to understand why a persons perceives their own actions as they do inorder for the clinician to provide the most effective treatment. Religion certainly plays a part in what we consider right and wrong.
frank_jessop Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 The "natives do it all the time and they seem to be happy" argument is not a productive course to pursue. We must deal with the reality of our own situation. That said, we all have certain expectations in a relationship, whether we are LDS or not. Those expectations are better defined for us as Mormons than for many, but unless one is into open marriage or free sex, most people expect a high level of fidelity in marriage. The problem is, IMO, we LDS are not well-equipped to deal with deviations from the course that is frequently and plainly laid out in our teachings. When a child or a spouse goes astray, the betrayal is akin to a death and the grieving process is very similar. I have known enough non-LDS victims and attended enough non-LDS meetings to assert that AA, Al Anon, Sex Anon, and other such groups are full of non-Mormons, and their loved suffer just as much as LDS victims. what the native do and why they do it, and did the natives change the practice after religious fold showed up, is directly related to the situation at hand? From the Bible we learn that Adam and Eve were not ashamed until someone suggested they should be ashamed of their bodies. And I agree with your other comments, however, I can not help but wonder that your comment goes supports the notion that religious teachings play a part in how pornography use is perceived.
frank_jessop Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Blech. This reeks of, "If women weren't taught to feel so bad about pornography, this wouldn't be such a huge problem." Most women are upset by porn by nature. And then we get to hear crap about it being men's nature to look at porn. Even if it didn't make us feel bad, it would still be wrong. Sex is supposed to be a private act. This isn't just looking at naked women. With the Internet, there are countless pictures and videos that a lot of married people wouldn't have even imagined. can you show documentation that most are upset by porn by nature?
Mystery Meat Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 I feel like I am in the middle on this issue, at least the middle compared to some of the arguments I am hearing here. I agree at least somewhat with everyone. First, I believe that pornography is sin and addictive. Second, I believe that a lot of our "Mormon Culture" influences how we view porn. That leads to a porn addict, or in my case someone who hasn't even looked at it for a long time, feeling like they will never be accepted by other members if they knew their dirty little secret. That feeling is completely justified because it has been reinforced by countless members (especially women) whose words are so harsh towards those who struggle or have struggled that seem to leave little room for the Atonement in the lives of the afflicted. In fact, I have often joked with one of my close friends that girls our age would rather date a guy who treated them like crap then a nice guy who had a porn addiction. There is always tons of sympathy for a someone who confesses to being a recovering alcoholic or drug addict, probably even respect for the person who publicly acknowledges his or her weakness. But the same is in the vast majority of cases not true for a recovering pron addict who admits to their struggle. Usually that person is met with weird looks and general disgust. This feeling of isolation causes increases in feelings of worthlessness and guilt which only make the chords of addiction that much stronger. Oh I how long for the day when a person who is struggling with porn can admit to their challenges and have it be viewed the same as a person admitting to not being a full tithe payer or indulging in a rated R movie every now and then. Third, while I maintain that porn is bad behavior, the way our culture treats porn has made people's reactions to it, especially womens, unfair and unforgiving. I am sorry, but you are going to solve a lot more porn addictions with even the smallest attempts at understanding the cause for the addiction (and if you think its because the viewer is a pervert or likes naked women, you know nothing about it) then you ever will with lectures and screaming. In fact, I know more then a few priesthood leaders who have admitted to facing a dilemma. Do you counsel the men you are talking with to disclose the issue to their wife (or future wife), who in many cases will react unfairly, which reaction will strengthen the addiction, OR do you tell the man to keep it a secret, which also by its very secretive nature strengthens the addiction as well. You really can't win (unless the wife is truly a rare woman in our culture), and so most of them opt for secrecy. Having said all that, a man needs to understand why his behavior is hurtful to his wife outside of mere cultural prejudice. Viewing porn is a selfish act. I have a friend who had completely cut porn out of his life. He was dating a girl he loved, he proposed and they were set to be married. In an attempt to be fully honest with her he disclosed his past porn addiction with her. She freaked out and pushed him away. They talked and talked and she took him back but not without a whole heap of distrust and constant reminders that he was a no good porn addict. Eventually, he did start looking at porn again. And while he claims full responsibility for it, had she been more understanding and forgiving of PAST porn use, he would have likely remained clean to this day. Fortunately for my friend, he did not marry that girl. What makes this story even better is that she admitted to him to looking at lesbian porn in high school, and after they broke up she was invited to speak at a fireside to talk about what its like to date a porn addict. I am sure all the women and girls there walked away with an image of my closest friend on earth as some kind of monster and her as some sort of brave martyr who was nothing more then an innocent victim. Nothing could have been further from the truth. While my friend is not perfect, he is a very good man. Firesides like the one his ex fiance spoke at (rather unjustly) only reinforce what is in my mind an unforgiving attitude towards porn, which leads many women to condemn those who have ever viewed it. Divorce is probably justified in the most extreme examples. I am still not sure if I will ever tell the girl I love about my past struggles, even though I fully admit I would really like to be able to.
Bernard Gui Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) That's fair enough. I'm apt to defer to you since your experience has been more personal, while my only experience in addiction recovery is in a support capacity rather than in a treatment capacity. It's true that both parties need to be fully committed to their partners' repentance and healing processes, respectively, to know that such processes are going to be anything but easy, and to be fully committed to doing whatever's healthy to save the relationship. However, I don't think the point of that statement is to gloss over any of these things or to encourage "pie-in-the-sky" thinking: rather, if a husband and wife find themselves at rock bottom of the darkest abyss before the repentance and healing processes have begun, they might not even believe that it's possible to save the relationship, to repent, or to heal. Thus, I think the point of that remark is to give a couple who has lost almost all hope a reason to hang on, because if nobody who's at that point believes there's still a reason to hang on, then everyone will end their marriages right then and there, rather than finding out if they're the "rule" or the "exception." While it's only one example (and anecdotal evidence isn't empirical evidence, and one example does not an entire rigorous, valid study make) I know a couple who found themselves in that exact situation, he serves in the leadership of his Elders Quorum, and their bishop is interviewing them for temple recommends next week. I'm with you on this. I am not involved in treatment. Sister Gui and I are family support group leaders. In our six years as service missionaries we have become friends with perhaps 50 participants. Our 12 Step program parallels the program for the addict. We use the same Steps, but adapt the content to loved ones who are suffering from codependency. Addictions in our group have included a huge variety of drugs, alcohol, video games, eating disorders, sexual addictions, and pornography. None of them is a cakewalk. The number of "happy endings" is sadly small, but you must never loose hope, even if the hope is for a better outcome in the next life. Addiction, IMO, is Satan's ultimate tool. It destroys first, agency, second, trust, and then charity, then love, intimacy, friendship, and humanity. The remedy is surely there....the Atonement.....and it is powerful. For anyone in this situation, I urge you to find help. It is available. You are not alone. I personally do not know a family that is not touched in some degree by addiction. It is truly the plague of our time. I hate to sound doom and gloomy, but it is not an easy thing to live through, either as an addict or as one who loves an addict. Edited February 17, 2014 by Bernard Gui 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Makes me wonder why it's a huge problem with LDS. So you say it's a guilt thing? I hadn't heard it was from guilt before.I wonder if it's ok with church leaders if it's not porn per se, but a guide more or less, but still with pics, to help things get moving between a couple, especially if one of them is a little frigid and taught sex was wrong for so long.It's a huge problem. Period. LDS are just sucked up into it just like everyone else. You have to be so, so careful in what you do and encourage your loved one to do. You are playing with dynamite. 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Blech. This reeks of, "If women weren't taught to feel so bad about pornography, this wouldn't be such a huge problem." Most women are upset by porn by nature. And then we get to hear crap about it being men's nature to look at porn. Even if it didn't make us feel bad, it would still be wrong. Sex is supposed to be a private act. This isn't just looking at naked women. With the Internet, there are countless pictures and videos that a lot of married people wouldn't have even imagined. What you said. 2
Bernard Gui Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 I know, it's dehumanizing.The truth is it dehumanizes everyone involved...producers, participants, viewers, and innocent bystanders.
Bernard Gui Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Why would looking at pornography once or twice a week be harmful? Has either spouse been conditioned to believe such would be harmful? It certainly sounds as though if it happened in your household it would be harmful, but what is the cause and affect of the harm? Inherently harmful or conditioned harm? I will not defend pornography use. I think the gist of the article from the first post, is that clinicians needs to understand why a persons perceives their own actions as they do inorder for the clinician to provide the most effective treatment. Religion certainly plays a part in what we consider right and wrong.But it seems you are defending it....what could a little bit hurt?
Mystery Meat Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 The truth is it dehumanizes everyone involved...producers, participants, viewers, and innocent bystanders.Truth. In fact this is probably the most important truth.
Bernard Gui Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 can you show documentation that most are upset by porn by nature?Come to our support group......or any support group for wives of addicts.LDS or non-LDS, Christian, or atheist. Hear what they have to say. 2
EllenMaksoud Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 But it seems you are defending it....what could a little bit hurt?A little bit gets to be a lot?
Bernard Gui Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 I feel like I am in the middle on this issue, at least the middle compared to some of the arguments I am hearing here. I agree at least somewhat with everyone. First, I believe that pornography is sin and addictive. Second, I believe that a lot of our "Mormon Culture" influences how we view porn. That leads to a porn addict, or in my case someone who hasn't even looked at it for a long time, feeling like they will never be accepted by other members if they knew their dirty little secret. That feeling is completely justified because it has been reinforced by countless members (especially women) whose words are so harsh towards those who struggle or have struggled that seem to leave little room for the Atonement in the lives of the afflicted. In fact, I have often joked with one of my close friends that girls our age would rather date a guy who treated them like crap then a nice guy who had a porn addiction. There is always tons of sympathy for a someone who confesses to being a recovering alcoholic or drug addict, probably even respect for the person who publicly acknowledges his or her weakness. But the same is in the vast majority of cases not true for a recovering pron addict who admits to their struggle. Usually that person is met with weird looks and general disgust. This feeling of isolation causes increases in feelings of worthlessness and guilt which only make the chords of addiction that much stronger. Oh I how long for the day when a person who is struggling with porn can admit to their challenges and have it be viewed the same as a person admitting to not being a full tithe payer or indulging in a rated R movie every now and then. Third, while I maintain that porn is bad behavior, the way our culture treats porn has made people's reactions to it, especially womens, unfair and unforgiving. I am sorry, but you are going to solve a lot more porn addictions with even the smallest attempts at understanding the cause for the addiction (and if you think its because the viewer is a pervert or likes naked women, you know nothing about it) then you ever will with lectures and screaming. In fact, I know more then a few priesthood leaders who have admitted to facing a dilemma. Do you counsel the men you are talking with to disclose the issue to their wife (or future wife), who in many cases will react unfairly, which reaction will strengthen the addiction, OR do you tell the man to keep it a secret, which also by its very secretive nature strengthens the addiction as well. You really can't win (unless the wife is truly a rare woman in our culture), and so most of them opt for secrecy. Having said all that, a man needs to understand why his behavior is hurtful to his wife outside of mere cultural prejudice. Viewing porn is a selfish act. I have a friend who had completely cut porn out of his life. He was dating a girl he loved, he proposed and they were set to be married. In an attempt to be fully honest with her he disclosed his past porn addiction with her. She freaked out and pushed him away. They talked and talked and she took him back but not without a whole heap of distrust and constant reminders that he was a no good porn addict. Eventually, he did start looking at porn again. And while he claims full responsibility for it, had she been more understanding and forgiving of PAST porn use, he would have likely remained clean to this day. Fortunately for my friend, he did not marry that girl. What makes this story even better is that she admitted to him to looking at lesbian porn in high school, and after they broke up she was invited to speak at a fireside to talk about what its like to date a porn addict. I am sure all the women and girls there walked away with an image of my closest friend on earth as some kind of monster and her as some sort of brave martyr who was nothing more then an innocent victim. Nothing could have been further from the truth. While my friend is not perfect, he is a very good man. Firesides like the one his ex fiance spoke at (rather unjustly) only reinforce what is in my mind an unforgiving attitude towards porn, which leads many women to condemn those who have ever viewed it. Divorce is probably justified in the most extreme examples. I am still not sure if I will ever tell the girl I love about my past struggles, even though I fully admit I would really like to be able to.Why would you want to tell her? If you have repented and found peace and forgiveness,"I the Lord remember them no more." Unless your bishop is breaking confidences (for which he should be released), no one but you or him should ever know your sins.There is a huge difference between the reactions to substance addictions and sexual addictions, as you have noted, but the intimate nature of sexual addiction puts them on a different footing. It may be appropriate to say "I was a meth head or coke addict, but now I am recovering and have been sober for 15 years." It's quite another to say "I used to have cross-dressing problems wearing my wife's intimate apparel, and I looked at hardcore porn for 10 years without her knowing it, but now I shop at Filsons and I don't have any more addictive thoughts about pornography and naked people and all that stuff." It would be sufficient for the audience to know "I have come out of some serious addictions, but through the Atonement I have been made whole again." While you may be correct about the "fireside," I can't imagine it happening any place I have lived in the church. Such a thing is highly inappropriate, and Priesthood leaders should get what for if they condoned or planned that. If the man's name or identity were disclosed, it's time for some disciplinary action. There is an explicit protocol of confidentiality in the repentance process. In the LDS 12 Step program, you do confess your weaknesses to God, to a Priesthood leader if it is warranted, and perhaps to a counselor or other 12 Step member. You are strongly discouraged from ever disclosing such information to a spouse or to any other person who might be harmed by it. It is between you and the Savior. 1
frank_jessop Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 But it seems you are defending it....what could a little bit hurt? Your perception is your reality. What you clearly failed to consider is the "WHY" of my post. Asking someone to explain "why" twice a week use would be harmful, is not promoting twice a week use.
Bernard Gui Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 A little bit gets to be a lot?Indeed. All addictions started small. Usually in the early teens.
Bernard Gui Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Your perception is your reality. What you clearly failed to consider is the "WHY" of my post. Asking someone to explain "why" twice a week use would be harmful, is not promoting twice a week use.Then you are clearly defending the use of pornography. Consider your question in light of Jacob 2: 2 Now, my beloved brethren, I, Jacob, according to theresponsibility which I am under to God, to magnify mine office with soberness, and that I might rid my garments of your sins, I come up into the temple this day that I might declare unto you the word of God. 3 And ye yourselves know that I have hitherto been diligent in the office of my calling; but I this day am weighed down with much more desire and anxiety for the welfare of your souls than I have hitherto been. 4 For behold, as yet, ye have been obedient unto the word of the Lord, which I have given unto you. 5 But behold, hearken ye unto me, and know that by the help of the all-powerful Creator of heaven and earth I can tell you concerning your thoughts, how that ye are beginning to labor in sin, which sin appeareth very abominable unto me, yea, and abominable unto God. 6 Yea, it grieveth my soul and causeth me to shrink with shame before the presence of my Maker, that I must testify unto you concerning the wickedness of your hearts. 7 And also it grieveth me that I must use so much boldness of speech concerning you, before your wives and your children, many of whose feelings are exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before God, which thing is pleasing unto God; 8 And it supposeth me that they have come up hither to hear the pleasing word of God, yea, the word which healeth the wounded soul. 9 Wherefore, it burdeneth my soul that I should be constrained, because of the strict commandment which I have received from God, to admonish you according to your crimes, to enlarge the wounds of those who are already wounded, instead of consoling and healing their wounds; and those who have not been wounded, instead of feasting upon the pleasing word of God have daggers placed to pierce their souls and wound their delicate minds. 10 But, notwithstanding the greatness of the task, I must do according to the strict commands of God, and tell you concerning your wickedness and abominations, in the presence of the pure in heart, and the broken heart, and under the glance of the piercingeye of the Almighty God. 11 Wherefore, I must tell you the truth according to the plainnessof the word of God. For behold, as I inquired of the Lord, thus came the word unto me, saying: Jacob, get thou up into the temple on the morrow, and declare the word which I shall give thee unto this people. 27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; 28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. 29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things. 31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands. 32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts. 33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts. Edited February 17, 2014 by Bernard Gui
Mystery Meat Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Why would you want to tell her? If you have repented and found peace and forgiveness,"I the Lord remember them no more." Unless your bishop is breaking confidences (for which he should be released), no one but you or him should ever know your sins.There is a huge difference between the reactions to substance addictions and sexual addictions, as you have noted, but the intimate nature of sexual addiction puts them on a different footing. It may be appropriate to say "I was a meth head or coke addict, but now I am recovering and have been sober for 15 years." It's quite another to say "I used to have cross-dressing problems wearing my wife's intimate apparel, and I looked at hardcore porn for 10 years without her knowing it, but now I shop at Filsons and I don't have any more addictive thoughts about pornography and naked people and all that stuff." It would be sufficient for the audience to know "I have come out of some serious addictions, but through the Atonement I have been made whole again." While you may be correct about the "fireside," I can't imagine it happening any place I have lived in the church. Such a thing is highly inappropriate, and Priesthood leaders should get what for if they condoned or planned that. If the man's name or identity were disclosed, it's time for some disciplinary action. There is an explicit protocol of confidentiality in the repentance process. In the LDS 12 Step program, you do confess your weaknesses to God, to a Priesthood leader if it is warranted, and perhaps to a counselor or other 12 Step member. You are strongly discouraged from ever disclosing such information to a spouse or to any other person who might be harmed by it. It is between you and the Savior. I would want to disclose it to my wife because it is a big part of who I am, meaning the journey of overcoming. It has shaped me in every way. I am not sure a person can truly know me without knowing my journey. I understand that sexual sins are very intimate. I get it, I really do. But that still doesn't explain to me WHY people in the Church (or people in general) have to react so negatively and terribly to people who have struggled with sexual sin. In my opinion there should be no difference in the scenario you outlined above. We are years, probably decades away from getting to that point. No names were disclosed that I am aware of at the fireside. Let's just say the fireside took place in Utah county and leave it at that. However I have lived in three different time zones in the US and the attitude about porn users was the same everywhere.
frank_jessop Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Come to our support group......or any support group for wives of addicts.LDS or non-LDS, Christian, or atheist. Hear what they have to say. Not relevant. The statement "most women are upset by porn by nature" is opinion OR grounded in solid fact. The woman atteding those meeting would eqaute to a drop in a bucket of when compared the earth population of women; thus failing to provide proof that "most women" are upset.
MorningStar Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Not relevant. The statement "most women are upset by porn by nature" is opinion OR grounded in solid fact. The woman atteding those meeting would eqaute to a drop in a bucket of when compared the earth population of women; thus failing to provide proof that "most women" are upset.Do most men hide their porn use from their wives? Yes or no? If so, why do they hide it?
frank_jessop Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Then you are clearly defending the use of pornography. Nice try. You can vilify me all you want, but you are wrong and will continue to be wrong. Asking someone to elaborate on their stated position, is in no rationale way defending the opposite of that persons stated position. It is very unfortunate that you fail to realize that.
Bernard Gui Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Not relevant. The statement "most women are upset by porn by nature" is opinion OR grounded in solid fact. The woman atteding those meeting would eqaute to a drop in a bucket of when compared the earth population of women; thus failing to provide proof that "most women" are upset.As you wish. Nice try. You can vilify me all you want, but you are wrong and will continue to be wrong. Asking someone to elaborate on their stated position, is in no rationale way defending the opposite of that persons stated position. It is very unfortunate that you fail to realize that.Please respond to my edited post. I was a bit hasty on the "Post" button.
frank_jessop Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Do most men hide their porn use from their wives? Yes or no? If so, why do they hide it? Do you have verifiable documentation? Yes or No? I only know a handful of men of the earths population of men. Just the same as I only know a handful of women of the earths population of women. Given that I know such a insignificant amount of the earths population, much less any knowlege of the pornography usage of those men, I can not provide an answer to you question.
Bernard Gui Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 I would want to disclose it to my wife because it is a big part of who I am, meaning the journey of overcoming. It has shaped me in every way. I am not sure a person can truly know me without knowing my journey. I understand that sexual sins are very intimate. I get it, I really do. But that still doesn't explain to me WHY people in the Church (or people in general) have to react so negatively and terribly to people who have struggled with sexual sin. In my opinion there should be no difference in the scenario you outlined above. We are years, probably decades away from getting to that point. No names were disclosed that I am aware of at the fireside. Let's just say the fireside took place in Utah county and leave it at that. However I have lived in three different time zones in the US and the attitude about porn users was the same everywhere.If you think the information would not harm your wife but make her love you more, go for it, but be warned that you could cause irreparable damage to your relationship. The Lord remembers your sin no more. Why would you want her to?
frank_jessop Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Bernard Gui, adding Jacob to the post does not change my response.
Bernard Gui Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Do you have verifiable documentation? Yes or No? I only know a handful of men of the earths population of men. Just the same as I only know a handful of women of the earths population of women. Given that I know such a insignificant amount of the earths population, much less any knowlege of the pornography usage of those men, I can not provide an answer to you question.It's really a moot point. The fact is it does cause serious damage to the user and his/her loved ones. You just can't dispute that.
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