Religion And "pornography Addiction", Reality And Perception Study.

[jkwilliams]

I realize that, but in a religious conversation, they are inevitably connected.

 

If something IS a sin, then guilt and shame ARE necessary.  If it's not a sin, then those feelings are unnecessary.

Even if I thought it was a sin, I still would say that the guilt and shame resulting from LDS teachings are disproportionate to the seriousness of the sin.  

 

Therefore, one must first know whether or not something is sinful before they can then declare whether or not someone should feel guilt for doing it.

 

It doesn't make sense, in a religious conversation, to say, i don't know if it's sinful or not, but no one should feel guilt for doing it.  If you don't know if it's sinful, then you also don't know if guilt is necessary.  It's that simple.

I did not mean to say people shouldn't feel any guilt, particularly if they think it's a sin. What I object to is this elevation of masturbation to this terribly awful, dark, heinous sin that should instill a great deal of guilt and shame. Excessive guilt helps no one. I've been to the 12-step meetings, and you'd think these kids were confessing to murder, the guilt and shame were so overwhelming.

[Bernard Gui]

Even if I thought it was a sin, I still would say that the guilt and shame resulting from LDS teachings are disproportionate to the seriousness of the sin.  

 

I did not mean to say people shouldn't feel any guilt, particularly if they think it's a sin. What I object to is this elevation of masturbation to this terribly awful, dark, heinous sin that should instill a great deal of guilt and shame. Excessive guilt helps no one. I've been to the 12-step meetings, and you'd think these kids were confessing to murder, the guilt and shame were so overwhelming.

It this is true, the 12 Step group leaders were way, way, way, way out of bounds. I am a 12 Step leader and this is contrary to everything we do and stand for.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[jkwilliams]

As I said above, no one is suggesting banning all sexual desires, but we are under covenant to keep them within the bounds set by God. What do you think those

bounds are? They are clearly set forth in the covenant.......

I remember the covenants. I suppose it depends on how you define intercourse and unholy or impure practices.

As I said, if I were still a believer, I would nevertheless consider the overwhelming shame and guilt people like me (and all those other guys in the 12-step meeting) felt to be way out of proportion to the seriousness of the sin.

[jkwilliams]

It this is true, the 12 Step group leaders were way, way, way, way out of bounds. I am a 12 Step leader and this is contrary to everything we do and stand for.

I think the problem is lack of training. We had missionaries assigned who had not been trained at all, and the facilitators were just people who had been through the program. I think of kids who considered themselves addicts because they masturbated on occasion, and they felt they had to confess their addiction to their loved ones. More than a few spoke of telling people they dated about the addiction before they got "serious." So much fear and shame, and for what?

[Bernard Gui]

I invite all readers to see my thread on Conference talks and 12 Step support.

There you can read the 12 Steps and see how they fit in with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Also, see http://addictionrecovery.lds.org/home?lang=eng .... the Church website for addiction recovery.

 

If you struggle with addiction of any kind, you suffer needlessly. There is help available and people anxious

to be on your side. You are not alone!

[Bernard Gui]

I remember the covenants. I suppose it depends on how you define intercourse and unholy or impure practices.

As I said, if I were still a believer, I would nevertheless consider the overwhelming shame and guilt people like me (and all those other guys in the 12-step meeting) felt to be way out of proportion to the seriousness of the sin.

And that would have been the responsibility of the group leaders and other members in recovery to set straight. Truth is a powerful weapon when fighting addiction. God bless you!

[jkwilliams]

And that would have been the responsibility of the group leaders and other members in recovery to set straight. Truth is a powerful weapon when fighting addiction. God bless you!

As I said before, I was glad I didn't come into those meetings with the overwhelming shame so many other people did. I took some good things from the meetings and tried to filter out the not so good.

[Gray]

So, it must be OK?

 

No, I'd say whether or not it's okay is a good question for mental health and medical professionals. 

[Bernard Gui]

I remember the covenants. I suppose it depends on how you define intercourse and unholy or impure practices.

As I said, if I were still a believer, I would nevertheless consider the overwhelming shame and guilt people like me (and all those other guys in the 12-step meeting) felt to be way out of proportion to the seriousness of the sin.

 

I think the problem is lack of training. We had missionaries assigned who had not been trained at all, and the facilitators were just people who had been through the program. I think of kids who considered themselves addicts because they masturbated on occasion, and they felt they had to confess their addiction to their loved ones. More than a few spoke of telling people they dated about the addiction before they got "serious." So much fear and shame, and for what?

One thing about 12 Step programs.....you are not confined to any particular group. You can leave and find another one that helps you. It sounds like the one you attended was dysfunctional. That's too bad, but there are good people and good programs available, if you are still interested. 

[jkwilliams]

No, I'd say whether or not it's okay is a good question for mental health and medical professionals.

Agreed. I've told my boys that the worst thing they could do is to obsess about it either way. Being so worried about not masturbating is at least as harmful as masturbating as often as you can. Usually things become less of an issue when we stop obsessing about them.

[Bernard Gui]

No, I'd say whether or not it's okay is a good question for mental health and medical professionals. 

But on a religious discussion board, we deal with concepts they don't....covenants, sin, forgiveness,

repentance. Some mental health and medical professionals have been known to lead people astray, too.

[Bernard Gui]

As I said before, I was glad I didn't come into those meetings with the overwhelming shame so many other people did. I took some good things from the meetings and tried to filter out the not so good.

As we should in all situations. In your experience, how did the group deal with such powerful feelings of shame and guilt? Was any attempt made to get things into perspective?

[Gray]

But on a religious discussion board, we deal with concepts they don't....covenants, sin, forgiveness,

repentance. Some mental health and medical professionals have been known to lead people astray, too.

 

Jesus taught that we can know if a doctrine is of Him by the effects it has when we live it, so I think it's relevant to seek professional information on whether or not it's harmful, especially when there isn't even a claimed revelation on the subject.

[jkwilliams]

One thing about 12 Step programs.....you are not confined to any particular group. You can leave and find another one that helps you. It sounds like the one you attended was dysfunctional. That's too bad, but there are good people and good programs available, if you are still interested.

I went to the 12-step program because my wife thought it would help, as she took an understandably dim view of my occasional viewing of pornography. I would not have attended the meetings if I did not agree that my viewing was harmful, but after discussion with my therapist, I doubted I fit the definition of an addict. I went to show a good faith effort in our marriage and to glean anything good I could from the meetings. We stopped going when both of us realized that it was kind of crazy to elevate such a minor issue to the level of addiction, and it certainly wasn't worth ending a marriage over, as so many of the wives in the support meeting were ready to do.

Attending the meetings helped me keep my problems in perspective and reminded me to focus on my marriage, and it did keep me clear of pornography. So, it wasn't a bad experience for me. I just felt bad for the guys in there who acted as if they were in the clutches of this terrible, self-inflicted disease. It was just blown way out of proportion.

[jkwilliams]

As we should in all situations. In your experience, how did the group deal with such powerful feelings of shame and guilt? Was any attempt made to get things into perspective?

Not really. The focus was on repenting and staying "clean." I don't remember any discussion of avoiding excessive guilt.

[Senator]

The Lord gave this commandment multiple times:

 

D&C 63:16 And verily I say unto you, as I have said before, he that looketh on a woman to lust after her, or if any shall commit adultery in their hearts, they shall not have the Spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear.  

 

Viewing pornography is committing adultery in the heart and betrays temple covenants.

 

Though I do not disagree with the scripture nor what you have said, I believe there is some reality here that needs to be understood.  The function of lust is a necessary thing for males to be able to perform their function sexually. Now I'm not going to get into details, I think you know what I mean.

 

Even within all the correct bounds, and with a woman who is your cherished and beloved wife, the function of lust must occur in order for him to get the job done.

 

So when the scripture says, "that when a man looketh upon a woman to lust after her",  we have to make the exception of one's own wife. But as always, bridling of that lust is in order. 

 

I'm curious to the responses I'll get....

[Bernard Gui]

Jesus taught that we can know if a doctrine is of Him by the effects it has when we live it, so I think it's relevant to seek professional information on whether or not it's harmful, especially when there isn't even a claimed revelation on the subject.

No one is suggesting we not seek professional information. What would you consider to be revelation on the subject? Explicit wording only? Scripture only?

[Bernard Gui]

Not really. The focus was on repenting and staying "clean." I don't remember any discussion of avoiding excessive guilt.

In my experience, a person expressing excessive remorse and guilt...to the point of becoming incapacitated or harmed...would get

a lot of positive attention and support. Taking an honest moral inventory of ourselves does not mean condemning ourselves to hell,

but just being honest about where we are. I would suppose staying "clean" means no more porn, no more masturbation, no more

lustful thinking. Those might be realistic goals to work towards, but certainly not a cactus branch to beat oneself with while climbing

the lava mounds of faux repentance.

 

Edited February 20, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Gray]

No one is suggesting we not seek professional information. What would you consider to be revelation on the subject? Explicit wording only? Scripture only?

 

Well, my personal standards are complex and not well defined, but from a legalistic standpoint I'd say it would be something presented as revelation and added to canon.

 

Personally I go further than that and evaluate actual harm, whether or not a teaching leads to kindness or unkindness, etc. Essentially how I feel about it personally, but that is of course subjective. 

Edited February 20, 2014 by Gray

[Bernard Gui]

Bump for cinepro.....CFR, please.

 

 

 

CFR that any being of "spirit" can see billions of naked bodies doing what they do.

 

God's views are plainly described in Jacob 2. 

 

​Doesn't saying God doesn't care much mean the same thing as saying they're ok?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Pornography should be illegal. It's pretty much prostitution. People are being paid to have sex and prostitution is illegal.

[Bernard Gui]

I would want to disclose it to my wife because it is a big part of who I am, meaning the journey of overcoming. It has shaped me in every way. I am not sure a person can truly know me without knowing my journey. 

 

I understand that sexual sins are very intimate. I get it, I really do. But that still doesn't explain to me WHY people in the Church (or people in general) have to react so negatively and terribly to people who have struggled with sexual sin. In my opinion there should be no difference in the scenario you outlined above. We are years, probably decades away from getting to that point.

 

No names were disclosed that I am aware of at the fireside. Let's just say the fireside took place in Utah county and leave it at that. However I have lived in three different time zones in the US and the attitude about porn users was the same everywhere.

 

I am having serious second thoughts about what you have said. I brought this issue up in our group meeting today. One of the participants who knows a situation similar to this said he thought it was imperative that you come forward honestly before marriage, because your future spouse needs to know what he/she is signing up for. As we all know, addictions often involve relapses, and it would be shocking for a spouse to have to discover a problem during a relapse. That is devastating to the spouse and the relationship. 

[Mystery Meat]

I am having serious second thoughts about what you have said. I brought this issue up in our group meeting today. One of the participants who knows a situation similar to this said he thought it was imperative that you come forward honestly before marriage, because your future spouse needs to know what he/she is signing up for. As we all know, addictions often involve relapses, and it would be shocking for a spouse to have to discover a problem during a relapse. That is devastating to the spouse and the relationship. 

 

Honestly, I am not sure there are any good answers to this question with how our culture currently operates.

[frank_jessop]

Bernard Gui do you believe that religious beliefs plays a role in shaping a persons views on pornography?

[Mystery Meat]

Bernard Gui do you believe that religious beliefs plays a role in shaping a persons views on pornography?

 

I am not Bernard, but absolutely it does. In my case, for the better. My addiction with pornography was not some fabrication created by well-intentioned men who told me it was addictive. It had real consequences in my life that went well beyond a placebo effect. I went through cycles of defeat and dispair in my life and pornography and the dopamine rush was my drug and source of solace during troubled times. The only thing that saved me from it was doing things that invited the Spirit into my life. I did that through scripture study. Daily encounters with the Holy Ghost, how shall I say, illuminated and brightened my soul. With each day I drew nearer to the Lord, He drew nearer to me. I was never quite as dark any more and as a natural consequence the need for porn gradually dissipated. The Spirit was my new prescription and its presence was as real and recognizable as the cravings for porn were previously.

 

Furthermore, as has been pointed out on this thread time and time again, religious folks aren't the only ones who have noticed it to be addicting. Many agnostic and atheist porn users and care providers have labeled it as such as well. The problem with a lot of these types of studies, and I haven't reviewed this one close enough, is that often times you get conflicting results, some that say it is and some that say it isn't (addicting). In the past, the ones that say it isn't come from sex therapists and sexologists; the ones that say it is are usually from physiologists, psychiatrists, and neuro-specialists.    

 

As an aside, I have found that in my first hand real world experience, and on various internet fora, I have found the most zealous preachers of the "porn is not an addiction and is perfectly normal" mentality were once members of the Church or have gone inactive. I am merely guessing that for many of them, based on how passionate they get, this is the case because they love finding faults with the leaders of the Church. For some, the leaders of the Church could say heroine is addicting, and they would be up in arms, but I digress. These former believers have been driven to very intense anger that they addressed at me when I plainly and calmly explained that I was not only able to beat the addiction, I did it because of the Gospel as understood and taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They tell me it was me who did it and insist I overcame it in spite of the Church even though, "no man knows my history." When I tell them that reading the Book of Mormon, praying, and fasting literally made a tangible difference in my ability to not only resist temptation, but to even encounter it in the first place they really lose it. Mostly, this is because they got done mocking me with questions like, "don't you find it funny how no matter how many times you read your scriptures and prayed, your addiction never got bettered?" That tells me more about the quality of their study, prayer, and communion with God then anything else.

 

Anyway, sorry to digress, but I sensed a little bit of that in your question. I am sorry if I misread it, but I provided it nonetheless.