Poll Regarding Our View Of Where The Non-Spiritual Evidence Leads

[Brian 2.0]

I edited the poll to emphasize the "NOT" in the first 3 questions.  Not sure why these options are so confusing?

 

I don't think they are, even with your new emphasis, but do you still think that I mispoke or misvoted?

 

Just so I know I'm not thinking about this totally wrong... do you disagree with this statement I made last page?

 

"If you were split down the middle with taking into account faith and spiritual witnesses (and your spiritual witness is evidence FOR the church being true) then if you had to take those spiritual witnesses OUT, then logically I would think you'd have to fall into options 1,2, or 3."

Edited February 13, 2014 by Brian 2.0

[Buckeye]

My favorite TV show is walking dead.... and with the past week  I feel like I am walking dead

 

Gotcha.  Definitely don't bring that up with my wife.  She hates the show.  If you haven't see it, BCC had a post about gospel topics in The Walking Dead.  The even discuss faith crises!

 

http://bycommonconsent.com/2011/12/19/pop-culture-theologizing-with-the-walking-dead/

[DBMormon]

I don't think they are, even with your new emphasis, but do you still think that I mispoke or misvoted?

 

Just so I know I'm not thinking about this totally wrong... do you disagree with this statement I made last page?

 

"If you were split down the middle with taking into account faith and spiritual witnesses (and your spiritual witness is evidence FOR the church being true) then if you had to take those spiritual witnesses OUT, then logically I would think you'd have to fall into options 1,2, or 3."

I agree.  the church being what it claims is less likely when you take out spiritual experiences which is 1,2, or 3

[Brian 2.0]

on the topic of the question itself...

 

This question sums up pretty well why I'm no longer a believer.  Spiritual Witnesses are big piece evidence.  Enough to tip the scales in favor of the church being true... I mean this is God telling you what is true!

 

But if you take off that chunk, the scale seems to tip dramatically in the opposite direction.  The probability of certain things (historicity of the BOM, BoA, etc) became very low without the spiritual witness.

 

This wasn't much of an issue at first because I had that spiritual witness to put back on the scale to tip it back.

 

But at one point I personally started to see the spiritual witness method as not being very reliable, even prophets get it wrong.  I personally no longer believe that praying and feeling the spirit is a reliable method for determining truth, so the scale smashed the other way.

 

.... one note

 

... as I know mfbukowski will jump on this post, and rightly so from his perspective.  I think an Alma 32 method can work for pragmatic truth, or what is "true for you" and all that.  

[DBMormon]

on the topic of the question itself...

 

This question sums up pretty well why I'm no longer a believer.  Spiritual Witnesses are big piece evidence.  Enough to tip the scales in favor of the church being true... I mean this is God telling you what is true!

 

But if you take off that chunk, the scale seems to tip dramatically in the opposite direction.  The probability of certain things (historicity of the BOM, BoA, etc) became very low without the spiritual witness.

 

This wasn't much of an issue at first because I had that spiritual witness to put back on the scale to tip it back.

 

But at one point I personally started to see the spiritual witness method as not being very reliable, even prophets get it wrong.  I personally no longer believe that praying and feeling the spirit is a reliable method for determining truth, so the scale smashed the other way.

 

.... one note

 

... as I know mfbukowski will jump on this post, and rightly so from his perspective.  I think an Alma 32 method can work for pragmatic truth, or what is "true for you" and all that.  

While a believer, I very much agree with your post and the Moroni 10:3-5 variety of Spiritual witness.  I also agree that Alma 32 hits at a different kind of truth (practical truth)  praying makes me happier more peaceful, scripture reading makes my day go better, ect...

Edited February 13, 2014 by DBMormon

[Maestrophil]

My feeling is, if I take out my faith and spiritual experiences, I feel the evidence/logic skews towards not being able to prove a god at all.  Thus all religions tend to "NOT" be true and be man made. 

 

My logic combined with my faith, hope and experiences compels me to lean the other way, however....

[ALarson]

DBMormon, thanks for this thread.

 

I have been through my own faith crisis and came through it with my testimony intact.  Was it changed?  You bet.  I now have a much more symbolic belief in things.  I do not believe the Book of Mormon is a literal history (nor do I believe this about the Bible either).  Is it wrong for me to believe that?  Why criticize or judge me anymore than I should do that to someone who still literally believes?

 

I see the good that the church does (in my life and in the world).  There is a beauty for me with all of the symbolism just as there is in the parables that Jesus taught.  

 

I believe that what we have as our scriptures (Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham specifically) are inspired writings.  I don't have to literally believe in them to benefit from their teachings.  I do not believe the Book of Abraham was translated from the papyrus and it seems the church is even leaning towards this now too.  

 

The church is changing and evolving to include all types of members with all types of testimonies.  Heck, what was considered anti-Mormon even a year ago is now being published in the new essays on lds.org (ie. the head in the hat translation, seer stones, Book of Mormon DNA, multiple versions of the first vision and so on).  I know they were considered to be anti-Mormon because as I brought them up in my discussions with my leaders when I was struggling I was flat out told that those were "anti-Mormon lies".  Now they are written about on the church's own website!

 

Things are a changing.  I love where the church is going with trying to include everyone and how they are now even discussing the difficult issues.

[Tacenda]

The minute I opened the door to the church possibly not being true is when my crisis began.  Before, I would never have had the ability to even entertain the notion, it just wasn't part of my existence, I'd been programmed since infancy of it's truthfulness, and with parables and teachings taught to me in my youth.  But finding things out about the church that were shocking, opened the door.  Maybe there is a way to shut the door and bask in a surety, but it might take some time.     

 

For now I place my faith in Jesus Christ and His word, not a religion.  But God wants us to have a "community" in our faith walk.  It's just finding the right one that fits the individual that matters.  So I didn't answer the poll because of my lack of posts since I'm on "limited" status.  But that's kind of my answer to the poll.   

 

DB, I love how your avatars change periodically.  Do they go along with your moods?  Because this one makes me want to give you a big hug!!  

[DBMormon]

The minute I opened the door to the church possibly not being true is when my crisis began.  Before, I would never have had the ability to even entertain the notion, it just wasn't part of my existence, I'd been programmed since infancy of it's truthfulness, and with parables and teachings taught to me in my youth.  But finding things out about the church that were shocking, opened the door.  Maybe there is a way to shut the door and bask in a surety, but it might take some time.     

 

For now I place my faith in Jesus Christ and His word, not a religion.  But God wants us to have a "community" in our faith walk.  It's just finding the right one that fits the individual that matters.  So I didn't answer the poll because of my lack of posts since I'm on "limited" status.  But that's kind of my answer to the poll.   

 

DB, I love how your avatars change periodically.  Do they go along with your moods?  Because this one makes me want to give you a big hug!!  

 

1. - Avatar = mood - sometimes.  And I could use the hug.

 

2. - I was hoping you would answer the poll as I don't see you limited in any way.

 

3. - I respect your view very much

[DBMormon]

My feeling is, if I take out my faith and spiritual experiences, I feel the evidence/logic skews towards not being able to prove a god at all.  Thus all religions tend to "NOT" be true and be man made. 

 

My logic combined with my faith, hope and experiences compels me to lean the other way, however....

While evidence as you see it leading to no God is one way to look at things.  I am speaking more to the things that are out of place within Mormonism or as it seems.  Things that don't match up or work as you thought.  Things that seem contradictory in the historical narrative. 

While I see many evidences for the Gospel and Church - I also see many hiccups that for me cast doubt on assuming the puzzle can fit perfectly if I will just keep looking at the puzzle pieces.  Again my spiritual experiences bind me to the Church but intellectually it is really hard some days to make it all fit.  To change assumptions, tweak expectations, allow more variance then one is used to in a faith that calls for you to do this tenfold more often then I have had to do in the real world (at least in ways that are more obvious and exhausting and difficult)  I perfectly grasp why some give up and say "it simply isn't true"  and yet I hang on because there is something there which keeps me scratching and clawing at it to figure it out.  I feel drawn to Mormonism in spite of its flaws.  God has placed me here and has asked me kindly to make it my home.

[Kenngo1969]

By playground - I mean it is the only place where I can ask tough questions, think through issues with feedback without a severe risk of hurting others faith.  I can't do that in Sunday School, with my wife (who could care less about seer stones and race issues and the whole assortment). 

 

I agree with what you said but all surveys fall short in that manner.  Forget it's shortcomings and either participate or don't. 

Re: "Playground" - Fair enough.  I was probably unfair to you.  I apologize.  (Personally [and I say this only half in jest], I was hoping you'd report me so that we can find out (1) whether the moderators are still alive; and (2) if the answer to (1) is, "Yes," why they appear to be asleep at the wheel.)  Carry on!

 

P.S.: And, for whatever little my substantive contribution might be worth, I believe God gives us both reasons to believe and reasons to doubt so that, in the end, the choice can be ours.  To borrow and alter the title of a book of which I have heard (but have not read), "Questions are inevitable; doubt and faith are choices."

Edited February 13, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

I have always felt your avatar told us as much as we needed to know.  So I guess there is something to be said about the avatars we use.

I don't need to change my avatar.  Mine already looks like your new avatar!  (It saves money on Halloween! )

 

P.S.: Please don't be offended by my liberal use of two emoticons in a single-line post.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

If you would have used apparently one more time in that sentence I would have given you a gold star.... lol

Yes, well, apparently you lack full appreciation of qualifiers ... apparently.)  (Apologies for use of emoticon!)

[Maestrophil]

While evidence as you see it leading to no God is one way to look at things.  I am speaking more to the things that are out of place within Mormonism or as it seems.  Things that don't match up or work as you thought.  Things that seem contradictory in the historical narrative. 

While I see many evidences for the Gospel and Church - I also see many hiccups that for me cast doubt on assuming the puzzle can fit perfectly if I will just keep looking at the puzzle pieces.  Again my spiritual experiences bind me to the Church but intellectually it is really hard some days to make it all fit.  To change assumptions, tweak expectations, allow more variance then one is used to in a faith that calls for you to do this tenfold more often then I have had to do in the real world (at least in ways that are more obvious and exhausting and difficult)  I perfectly grasp why some give up and say "it simply isn't true"  and yet I hang on because there is something there which keeps me scratching and clawing at it to figure it out.  I feel drawn to Mormonism in spite of its flaws.  God has placed me here and has asked me kindly to make it my home.

DB...  I agree with what you are saying.  I feel the same way.   I only extend it to a greater scope in belief in a god to illustrate that to me, faith and spiritual experiences are necessary to keep me grounded as I grapple with seemingly difficult evidence or lack thereof. 

[DBMormon]

DBMormon, thanks for this thread.

 Is it wrong for me to believe that?  Why criticize or judge me anymore than I should do that to someone who still literally believes?

Sorry, I didn't see this sooner.  I don't think your wrong as many of my beliefs have gone from literal to figurative.  If someone judges you that is on them, not you.

[CV75]

Me, personally, I wouldn't be interested in religion at all.

[canard78]

I still find the new avatar distracting. I wouldn't be able to watch a horror film if you paid me.

And I can't answer this poll. Without the spiritual experiences there's a big hole in my considerations.

But, I don't there's enough evidence to disprove the church claims. Otherwise they'd have been disproven.

Equally I don't think there's enough evidence to prove the church claims, otherwise faith wouldn't be needed.

But then the same could be said about God and most religions. If a religion is demonstrably false then it probably doesn't last long.

[DBMormon]

I still find the new avatar distracting. I wouldn't be able to watch a horror film if you paid me.

And I can't answer this poll. Without the spiritual experiences there's a big hole in my considerations.

But, I don't there's enough evidence to disprove the church claims. Otherwise they'd have been disproven.

Equally I don't think there's enough evidence to prove the church claims, otherwise faith wouldn't be needed.

But then the same could be said about God and most religions. If a religion is demonstrably false then it probably doesn't last long.

 

Evidence is not clear cut proof.  Evidence can be defined as

: a visible sign of something

: material that is presented to a court of law to help find the truth about something

 

There are many signs pointing one direction or the other.  For instance when it was discovered that the existing Papyri did not have a connection to the BOA, it pointed to something.  Was it undeniable proof?  no but it pointed us to a conclusion.  That said there have been counter evidences showing plausibility and in some cases decent evidence that we can still have room for the BOA to be what it claims.

[Rivers]

What helped me through my faith transiton was being able to still find value and meaning in mormonism even if everything doesn't make perfect sense from a strictly logical point of view. 

[pogi]

Evidence is not clear cut proof.  Evidence can be defined as

: a visible sign of something

: material that is presented to a court of law to help find the truth about something

 

There are many signs pointing one direction or the other.  For instance when it was discovered that the existing Papyri did not have a connection to the BOA, it pointed to something.  Was it undeniable proof?  no but it pointed us to a conclusion.  That said there have been counter evidences showing plausibility and in some cases decent evidence that we can still have room for the BOA to be what it claims.

 

The problem is that the evidence is not conclusive.  Therefore we cannot make any conclusions based on the evidence as suggested in your poll.  Evidence is further subject to interpretation, as "evidenced" by the results in your poll. 

[DBMormon]

What helped me through my faith transiton was being able to still find value and meaning in mormonism even if everything doesn't make perfect sense from a strictly logical point of view. 

I am at this place as well.  In other words while I choose to have faith in its truthfullness, I no longer know.  I feel swayed logically to a point of disbelief at times, but my spiritual experience keeps me tied in.  take the spiritual out and I would struggle to stay in.  Take the logical out and I would still be in my black and white phase thinking all was beautiful.  Where I am at is hard and exhausting but it is an "EXERCISE" of faith.

[DBMormon]

The problem is that the evidence is not conclusive.  Therefore we cannot make any conclusions based on the evidence as suggested in your poll.  Evidence is further subject to interpretation, as "evidenced" by the results in your poll. 

 

I hear all of you who say the poll has inherent flaws.  So be it.  I acknowledge that.  That said it also is a poll I was interested in the results of.  There are polls that ask if one believes in God.  The poll may have the same flaws but is also useful.

 

Just click the answer that most closely follows your beliefs.

[omni]

I believe that if you took a large group of open-minded intelligent people who had no preconceived notions of the church and presented to them the best evidences for and against its truthfulness - the vast majority would believe it to be false.  Forgive my bluntness, but IMNSHO the evidence from a purely logical/intellectual prespective is overwhelmingly in favor of the church being a man-made organization.

 

That being said, this doesn't ave any bearing on whether the church can be a good organization that can truely improve people's lives.  I have a family member who has struggled with substance abuse for much of his life.  He's not currently active and hasn't been for some time, but even though I now longer believe, I want desperately for him to become active again.  The truth is that when he was serving his mission and later became student at BYU he was a much happier and more successful person.  Some people need the hope, the structure that the church can provide.  By the same token, I also know a number of people who have left the church and are genuinely happier and better for it.  I don't see it as an all or nothing approach, it really comes down to the individual and what's best for them (and their family).

[DBMormon]

I believe that if you took a large group of open-minded intelligent people who had no preconceived notions of the church and presented to them the best evidences for and against its truthfulness - the vast majority would believe it to be false.  Forgive my bluntness, but IMNSHO the evidence from a purely logical/intellectual prespective is overwhelmingly in favor of the church being a man-made organization.

 

That being said, this doesn't ave any bearing on whether the church can be a good organization that can truely improve people's lives.  I have a family member who has struggled with substance abuse for much of his life.  He's not currently active and hasn't been for some time, but even though I now longer believe, I want desperately for him to become active again.  The truth is that when he was serving his mission and later became student at BYU he was a much happier and more successful person.  Some people need the hope, the structure that the church can provide.  By the same token, I also know a number of people who have left the church and are genuinely happier and better for it.  I don't see it as an all or nothing approach, it really comes down to the individual and what's best for them (and their family).

 

I agree with your first paragraph but I would also add in the 2nd, the first doesn't have bearing on if the Church is true or not as well.

[Brian 2.0]

The problem is that the evidence is not conclusive. Therefore we cannot make any conclusions based on the evidence as suggested in your poll. Evidence is further subject to interpretation, as "evidenced" by the results in your poll.

While the evidence is not conclusive, we certainly can use it to make conclusions. These conclusions just aren't 100% certain. But that's how every conclusion is. 100% conclusive evidence to form a 100% certain conclusion is near impossilbe.

If there was a study that suggested that blue M&Ms cause leprosy, and a number of other studies seemed to say the same thing, but there were a few smaller studies that said it did not cause leprosy... you could say the evidence is not conclusive. But you better believe most would look at all the non-conclusive evidence and formulate a conclusion and decide whether or not to eat blue M&Ms.

We definately can, and do, make conclusions based on the evidence suggested in the poll. Most aren't "agnostic" on the question of if the LDS church is true. If the evidence was so inconclusive that conclusions couldn't be made, we'd see a lot of people in that agnostic position on the church.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Brian 2.0