Poll Regarding Our View Of Where The Non-Spiritual Evidence Leads

[DBMormon]

Take out faith, take out one's spiritual experiences.  Where does the History, study of Doctrine, theology, the evidences and problems.... where do these intellectually lead us?

If I did this right there should be a poll included with this thread.  Where does the Evidence lead you?

If It did not show up the questions are below as well and we can discuss.

 

 

 

Where Do you come out on the evidence?

Taking strictly a logical view at Church history, Doctrine, and theology where does the evidence lead you?  Votes are not public - eliminate spiritual experiences and their weight from your answer.

1.  The evidence leans one to conclude absolutely the Church is not actually installed by God as the Church claims.  It is man made completely.

2. The evidence leads very strongly towards a conclusion the Church is not what it claims.

3.  The evidence is only moderately in favor of the LDS Church not being what it claims.

4.  The evidence is split right down the middle and therefore is entirely a matter of choice.

5.  The evidence is only moderately in favor of the LDS Church being what it claims.

6.  The evidence leads very strongly towards a conclusion the Church is what it claims.

7.  The evidence leans one to conclude absolutely the Church is what it claims to be.

Edited February 13, 2014 by DBMormon

[Kenngo1969]

You're probably going to ignore this, so it's probably superfluous, but what the hell.  (You're in good company.  The moderators are ignoring me, as well.  I guess some of us simply aren't worth their time. [That strange odor you smell is my charred, burning flesh.])  The problem with a poll like this is that it assumes that everyone who answers the same way (that is to say, everyone gives equal weight to each individual piece of evidence who selected Option #1, and the same is true of those for Options #2 through #7).  I don't think that's the case.  We're all going to weight different pieces of evidence differently, use different criteria to do so; filter the evidence through our differing perceptions, attitudes, experiences, and so on.  If God compelled belief, that would destroy moral agency just as surely as moral agency would be destroyed if Satan compelled action.  I did not vote.

 

P.S.: Besides, you, apparently, are simply here to yank all of our chains, anyway, apparently. [i was attempting to add this postscript hastily before running out the door, and missed the repeated qualifier: I hereby surrender my position as an officer in the Grammar Police! ] You, yourself have called this place your "playground," whatever that means.  It causes me to wonder whether anything else you do should be taken seriously.  

Edited February 13, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Rivers]

I first voted that the evidence is split down the middle.   Then I read the whole question which says that i have to remove faith and spirituality from the equation.  Logically speaking,  I would have to say that there the evidence against the church outweighs the evidence for it. So I switched my voted to option 5.

 

In my opinion the best evidence in favor of the church are these:

 

1. Eyewitness accounts of the Book of Mormon translation process.

 

2. The three and eight witnesses.

 

3. Nahom

 

The evidence not in favor of the church would be too long of a list.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Rivers

[thesometimesaint]

The best evidence for the Church is the lives of its members.

[aspire]

The evadance is we are human and the church is run by humans. God started it, and our leaders from the Prophet Joseph on down I'm sure have been inspired and directed by Him. But we still have agency and do not always do as God directs. It's when you see the mud splattered history and still like what the Church is, you choose.

[DBMormon]

You're probably going to ignore this, so it's probably superfluous, but what the hell.  (You're in good company.  The moderators are ignoring me, as well.  I guess some of us simply aren't worth their time. [That strange odor you smell is my charred, burning flesh.])  The problem with a poll like this is that it assumes that everyone who answers the same way (that is to say, everyone gives equal weight to each individual piece of evidence who selected Option #1, and the same is true of those for Options #2 through #7).  I don't think that's the case.  We're all going to weight different pieces of evidence differently, use different criteria to do so; filter the evidence through our differing perceptions, attitudes, experiences, and so on.  If God compelled belief, that would destroy moral agency just as surely as moral agency would be destroyed if Satan compelled action.  I did not vote.

 

P.S.: Besides, you, apparently, are simply here to yank all of our chains, anyway, apparently.  You, yourself have called this place your "playground," whatever that means.  It causes me to wonder whether anything else you do should be taken seriously.  

 

By playground - I mean it is the only place where I can ask tough questions, think through issues with feedback without a severe risk of hurting others faith.  I can't do that in Sunday School, with my wife (who could care less about seer stones and race issues and the whole assortment). 

 

I agree with what you said but all surveys fall short in that manner.  Forget it's shortcomings and either participate or don't. 

[DBMormon]

The best evidence for the Church is the lives of its members.

 

Then the baptist church down the street is likely true too right?

[Bob Crockett]

The new guy in your avatar is much better looking than that guy in a tie and glasses.   He looked like an accountant.

[DBMormon]

The new guy in your avatar is much better looking than that guy in a tie and glasses.   He looked like an accountant.

 

I have always felt your avatar told us as much as we needed to know.  So I guess there is something to be said about the avatars we use.

[Buckeye]

DB, I'm struggling with this poll for a few reasons.  First, I don't think anyone can be truly objective, particularly for religious truth claims.  Second, because people are subjective, they will weight the evidence towards their subjective outlook.  I can't imagine any significant number of people responding: "subjectively I come down on the side of (the church is true) (the church is not true), but objectively I concede the evidence points the other way."  That just doesn't happen.  People's subjective and objective nearly always match.  I think that is true even for the most objective and knowledgeable members, such as Bushman, Givens, etc.  At the end of the day, they still take some position and (surprise!) that position matches best with how they would describe the objective evidence.

 

[Note, that doesn't mean their outward behavior matches.  There certainly are people who participate in church activities for the social/family aspects, but do not really believe the truth claims.  But that's entirely different from what your poll is driving at.]

[Bob Crockett]

I have just been too lazy to upload an avatar.   I'll do it today.

[DBMormon]

DB, I'm struggling with this poll for a few reasons.  First, I don't think anyone can be truly objective, particularly for religious truth claims.  Second, because people are subjective, they will weight the evidence towards their subjective outlook.  I can't imagine any significant number of people responding: "subjectively I come down on the side of (the church is true) (the church is not true), but objectively I concede the evidence points the other way."  That just doesn't happen.  People's subjective and objective nearly always match.  I think that is true even for the most objective and knowledgeable members, such as Bushman, Givens, etc.  At the end of the day, they still take some position and (surprise!) that position matches best with how they would describe the objective evidence.

 

[Note, that doesn't mean their outward behavior matches.  There certainly are people who participate in church activities for the social/family aspects, but do not really believe the truth claims.  But that's entirely different from what your poll is driving at.]

 

 

Buckeye, I have faith the Church is true but answered that the evidence is moderately against such a conclusion.  In the end I still am interested to see what happens once more have had a chance to answer.

[Buckeye]

I have always felt your avatar told us as much as we needed to know.  So I guess there is something to be said about the avatars we use.

 

Well, my avatar doesn't really speak to who I am.  I just like the picture.  If your avatar is saying something about your current state of mind I pray things get better (unless I misundertand the picture).  I prefered your previous Christ avatar.  As red/green used to say, "keep you stick on the ice, we're all in this together."

[Rivers]

I have always felt your avatar told us as much as we needed to know.  So I guess there is something to be said about the avatars we use.

I wonder what your avatar says about you right now.  

[Brian 2.0]

I first voted that the evidence is split down the middle.   Then I read the whole question which says that i have to remove faith and spirituality from the equation.  Logically speaking,  I would have to say that there the evidence against the church outweighs the evidence for it. So I switched my voted to option 5.

 

In my opinion the best evidence in favor of the church are these:

 

1. Eyewitness accounts of the Book of Mormon translation process.

 

2. The three and eight witnesses.

 

3. Nahom

 

The evidence not in favor of the church would be too long of a list.

 

You switched to option 5?  That's saying the evidence is moderately IN FAVOR of the church being what it claims.

 

So with spiritual witnesses taken into account you are split down the middle, but without witnesses the evidence is more in the church's favor?  Do you have a spiritual witness that the church is NOT true?

[Rivers]

You switched to option 5?  That's saying the evidence is moderately IN FAVOR of the church being what it claims.

 

So with spiritual witnesses taken into account you are split down the middle, but without witnesses the evidence is more in the church's favor?  Do you have a spiritual witness that the church is NOT true?

I guess I am having trouble understanding the options.  The lack of the spiritual aspect puts me less in favor of the church being true.  So is it option 3 that I want?

[DBMormon]

Well, my avatar doesn't really speak to who I am.  I just like the picture.  If your avatar is saying something about your current state of mind I pray things get better (unless I misundertand the picture).  I prefered your previous Christ avatar.  As red/green used to say, "keep you stick on the ice, we're all in this together."

 

My favorite TV show is walking dead.... and with the past week  I feel like I am walking dead

[Brian 2.0]

I guess I am having trouble understanding the options.  The lack of the spiritual aspect puts me less in favor of the church being true.  So is it option 3 that I want?

 

If you were split down the middle with taking into account faith and spiritual witnesses (and your spiritual witness is evidence FOR the church being true) then if you had to take those spiritual witnesses OUT, then logically I would think you'd have to fall into options 1,2, or 3.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Brian 2.0

[DBMormon]

I guess I am having trouble understanding the options.  The lack of the spiritual aspect puts me less in favor of the church being true.  So is it option 3 that I want?

 

Rivers I think you have it and Brian either mispoke or misvoted.

[Rivers]

My favorite TV show is walking dead.... and with the past week  I feel like I am walking dead

Oh. Okay.  i haven't watched that show.

[Brian 2.0]

Rivers I think you have it and Brian either mispoke or misvoted.

 

Really?  Now I'm really confused.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Brian 2.0

[DBMormon]

P.S.: Besides, you, apparently, are simply here to yank all of our chains, anyway, apparently.  You, yourself have called this place your "playground," whatever that means.  It causes me to wonder whether anything else you do should be taken seriously.  

 

If you would have used apparently one more time in that sentence I would have given you a gold star.... lol

[Rivers]

Really?  Now I'm really confused.

I'll just change my vote to 2 to avoid any more confusion.  I think we are having some trouble understanding the the difference between 3 and 5.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Rivers

[DBMormon]

I edited the poll to emphasize the "NOT" in the first 3 questions.  Not sure why these options are so confusing?

[Gray]

I'm not sure I can agree with any of the choices presented, although my view of the church is different from what the church says about itself