President Monson Issued A Court Summons? Is This For Real?

[why me]

My understanding is he was in protective custody that night the Jail. It was understood his life was in danger, and a goal was, in theory, to protect his life from known would-be-assassins. Not your standard inmate.

He was also a presidential candidate. This fact is often forgotten by the critics of joseph having a gun not just for his protection but for the protection of the others that were with him. The other people in the prison with him were innocent volunteers to be with joseph.

[why me]

Aren't all inmates under protective custody ?

I suppose that it depends on the definition of protective custody. For joseph, technically yes. But in actuality no. And it wasn't just joseph in prison. They were also men who volunteered to be with him, like his brother. No charges were filed against them. So, the gun was not just for joseph's protection. Joseph was also a presidential candidate and the catharage greys were out to kill him.

 

The question that then needs to be asked is: how would one feel in a badly secure prison with one guard manning the entrance.with a hostile militia in town? 

[why me]

An inmate possessing a firearm is a bit shocking.

Especially one that is in prison on trumped up charges, who just happens to be a presidential candidate with a few guys in prison with him to show solidarity. I suppose that those men didn't need a gun for protection but I suppose that they may have felt just a tad safer.

 

And then we have the threats of the militia in town rebel rousing about wanting to kill joseph. And if one looks at the 'prison', it is more of a home.

[The Nehor]

Yes, the gun was clearly out of line. Subsequent events proved it was a baseless and unneeded precaution.

[Calm]

Do you all realize that Sheila hasn't posted for over two days and 8 pages on this thread?

I am going through withdrawal...I need a UK criminal barrister fix...I wonder if Rumpole or Silk is on Netflix?

It is 3:30 AM in London, why isn't Sheila on the board NOW!

Did you know it is approx. 7900 km from where I am right now to London?

Edited February 11, 2014 by calmoriah

[Duncan]

Do you all realize that Sheila hasn't posted for over two days and 8 pages on this thread?

I am going through withdrawal...I need a UK criminal barrister fix...I wonder if Rumpole or Silk is on Netflix?

It is 3:30 AM in London, why isn't Sheila on the board NOW!

Did you know it is approx. 7900 km from where I am right now to London?

 

 

She's probably watching Canada lead in the medal standings at the Olympics

Edited February 11, 2014 by Duncan

[saemo]

Especially one that is in prison on trumped up charges, who just happens to be a presidential candidate with a few guys in prison with him to show solidarity. I suppose that those men didn't need a gun for protection but I suppose that they may have felt just a tad safer.

 

And then we have the threats of the militia in town rebel rousing about wanting to kill joseph. And if one looks at the 'prison', it is more of a home.

I agree the atmosphere was hostile. The final outcome is because of the guards who did the complete opposite of their duty. Mishandled all around. I have my own thoughts, what ifs, that aren't for this thread. Read about Maximillian Kolbe to get an idea.

I don't agree the charge of inciting violence was trumped up.

[The Nehor]

I agree the atmosphere was hostile. The final outcome is because of the guards who did the complete opposite of their duty.

 

I place more blame on the governor who violated his promise to take Joseph with him and keep him under his protection. The prison guard did the only smart thing when outnumbered to that degree: Get out of the way.

[why me]

Do you all realize that Sheila hasn't posted for over two days and 8 pages on this thread?

I am going through withdrawal...I need a UK criminal barrister fix...I wonder if Rumpole or Silk is on Netflix?

It is 3:30 AM in London, why isn't Sheila on the board NOW!

Did you know it is approx. 7900 km from where I am right now to London?

Well, I can understand why if she is living in england. It seems that many parts of england are experiencing severe floods and it promises to get worse. Many people have flooded homes and many more are now being forced to leave their homes. If she is living in the area of the thames river, she may just have other things on her mind. Or if her relatives are being affected by the rains that seem to never end, she may be helping out. Not looking good for many families in england near the waterways.

[why me]

I agree the atmosphere was hostile. The final outcome is because of the guards who did the complete opposite of their duty. Mishandled all around. I have my own thoughts, what ifs, that aren't for this thread. Read about Maximillian Kolbe to get an idea.

I don't agree the charge of inciting violence was trumped up.

It was more a charge of treason. The point was to get him in jail. Of course if the governor knew that it was all trumped by claimed to be powerless to do something about it, Joseph was doomed. No way would there have been a trial. He had to die in hope that the church would die with him. Such was the logic.

[Calm]

Well, I can understand why if she is living in england. It seems that many parts of england are experiencing severe floods and it promises to get worse. Many people have flooded homes and many more are now being forced to leave their homes. If she is living in the area of the thames river, she may just have other things on her mind. Or if her relatives are being affected by the rains that seem to never end, she may be helping out. Not looking good for many families in england near the waterways.

I have not been news watching...that's awful. I hope she is safe, her family is safe, her friends are safe and the rest of the country is safe.

[canard78]

My understanding is he was in protective custody that night the Jail. It was understood his life was in danger, and a goal was, in theory, to protect his life from known would-be-assassins. Not your standard inmate.

 

Not as far as I understood it:

 

On 24th June, Joseph, Hyrum, John Taylor and fifteen members of the cit council surrendered in Carthage... on the original charge of riot. Almost immediately Joseph and Hyrum were charged with treason against the state of Illinois for declaring martial law in Nauvoo. The Nauvoo city council was released (on bail)... but Joseph and Hyrum remained... until they could be tried for treason, a capital (and non-bailable) offence... they were required to remain in custody until another hearing could be held on 29 June.

 

 

 

Church History in the Fullness of Times: Chapter 22

 

The charge of treason was under the accusation of raising a militia (a false accusation, but bail couldn't be granted).

[canard78]

Inciting a riot.

Nope

 

the riot that destroyed the press of the Nauvoo Expositor.

Nope

 

By carrying out an order of the city council? He was charged with treason, not with the destruction of the press.

Nearly.

 

The entire Nauvoo council were taken to Carthage, charged with the press destruction and then released on bail.

 

Joseph and Hyrum were the only two who were kept because they were also charged with treason for raising a militia/declaring martial law (a false charge). Treason is non-bailable.

[why me]

I have not been news watching...that's awful. I hope she is safe, her family is safe, her friends are safe and the rest of the country is safe.

My poor daughter has had rain for at least over a month. It never stops. Maybe Abu can shed some light on it. The chances that she is living near the thames is slim but I do know that many city lawyers buy homes in the countryside for kids and safety so she could be near the river area. More rain is forecast during the next few days. If you have sky news you can watch more unfold.

[why me]

Nope

 

Nope

 

Nearly.

 

The entire Nauvoo council were taken to Carthage, charged with the press destruction and then released on bail.

 

Joseph and Hyrum were the only two who were kept because they were also charged with treason for raising a militia/declaring martial law (a false charge). Treason is non-bailable.

It is obvious that critics need to come to church to learn church history. There is so much that they are unfamiliar with because they buy hook, line and sinker what the critic sites say.

[Kenngo1969]

Well, I can understand why if she is living in england. It seems that many parts of england are experiencing severe floods and it promises to get worse. Many people have flooded homes and many more are now being forced to leave their homes. If she is living in the area of the thames river, she may just have other things on her mind. Or if her relatives are being affected by the rains that seem to never end, she may be helping out. Not looking good for many families in england near the waterways.

Humanitarian aid, schmumanitarian aid!  If they have their way, Tom Phillips, et al, will see to it that the Church of Jesus Christ will never be able to blow fat stacks of cash on such frivolous concerns as aiding UK flood victims!  Who cares about them?!  In the immortal words of Marie Antoinette, "Let them eat cake!"  The hundreds of thousands of poor, duped British tithe-payers deserve their money back!  (OK, before you ask, yes, I do know there's a difference between tithing and humanitarian aid; no, I don't know how contributions to humanitarian aid in the UK are processed; and no, I don't know whether donation slips in the UK contain a disclaimer similar to that found on US donation slips, [paraphrasing], that donations to the Church of Jesus Christ become the property of the Church to be used at its sole discretion in furthering its overall mission.  (And, speaking of that overall mission: don't forget that fairly-recently-added fourth prong: to care for the poor and the needy.)

Edited February 11, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Alan]

 

Humanitarian aid, schmumanitarian aid!  If they have their way, Tom Phillips, et al, will see to it that the Church of Jesus Christ will never be able to blow fat stacks of cash on such frivolous concerns as aiding UK flood victims!  Who cares about them?!  In the immortal words of Marie Antoinette, "Let them eat cake!"  The hundreds of thousands of poor, duped British tithe-payers deserve their money back!  (OK, before you ask, yes, I do know there's a difference between tithing and humanitarian aid; no, I don't know how contributions to humanitarian aid in the UK are processed; and no, I don't know whether donation slips in the UK contain a disclaimer similar to that found on US donation slips, [paraphrasing], that donations to the Church of Jesus Christ become the property of the Church to be used at its sole discretion in furthering its overall mission.  (And, speaking of that overall mission: don't forget that fairly-recently-added fourth prong: to care for the poor and the needy.)

Actually, The UK is one of the few countries in the world that has never received humanitarian aid from the Church.

[David T]

Not as far as I understood it:

 

 

Church History in the Fullness of Times: Chapter 22

 

The charge of treason was under the accusation of raising a militia (a false accusation, but bail couldn't be granted).

 

Looks like you took this from yours or someone else's creative editing of the text, not the actual text. Was it you or someone else you quoted from? Here's the full quotes, minus your ellipses. If you're going to correct someone with a quote from the manual, please at least be accurate with your selection. Your ellipses and added words and re-adjusting of context is all over the place.

 

First I've reposted yours, with the ellipses, and some additional ellipses and brackets and additional text added in that your forgot to note.

 

Then follows the original, with the left out text highlighted. 

 

YOURS:

On 24th June, [...] Joseph [,] Hyrum, [John Taylor and fifteen] members of the [...] cit council [...] surrendered [in Carthage...] on the original charge of riot. Almost immediately Joseph and Hyrum were charged with treason against the state of Illinois for declaring martial law in Nauvoo. The Nauvoo city council was released (on bail)... but Joseph and Hyrum remained [...] until they could be tried for treason, a capital [...and] [non-bailable] [offence...] they were required to remain in custody until another hearing could be held on 29 June.

 

THE MANUAL:

Five minutes before midnight on 24 June, Captain Dunn and his company of sixty mounted men of the Augusta militia rode into Carthage with Joseph and Hyrum Smith and the members of the Nauvoo city council as voluntary captives. Joseph and Hyrum were weary from flight, hiding out, and the threat of assassination. Nevertheless the brothers were imposing figures as they rode into town—the Prophet, age thirty-eight, and Hyrum, forty-four—both tall men who towered over most of the others.

 

Carthage was in a riotous state. Mobs of irate townsmen and farmers from throughout western Illinois had been clamoring for the arrest of the Mormon prophet. They were now eager to see the captives. Among the mob were more than fourteen hundred unruly militia, including the local Carthage Greys. Crowds had been roaming the town all day, drinking and brawling. They wanted to get their hands on the Smith brothers. Through Captain Dunn’s efforts, the prisoners were safely placed in the Hamilton House hotel. The Greys still clamored to see Joseph Smith. Finally Governor Ford put his head out the window and calmed the crowd by announcing that Mr. Smith would be paraded before the troops the next day.

Early the next morning Joseph and his brethren surrendered to constable David Bettisworth on the original charge of riot. Almost immediately Joseph and Hyrum were charged with treason against the state of Illinois for declaring martial law in Nauvoo. At 8:30 that morning the governor ordered the troops to the public ground where he addressed them. He told them that the prisoners were dangerous men and perhaps guilty, but that they were now in the hands of the law, and the law must take its course. These remarks only incited the soldiers to greater rage. Joseph and Hyrum were then paraded before the troops where they endured many vulgar insults and death threats.

 

At four o’clock that afternoon a preliminary hearing was held before Robert F. Smith, a justice of the peace who was also captain of the Carthage Greys and active in the anti-Mormon party. Each member of the Nauvoo city council was released on five hundred dollar bonds and ordered to appear at the next term of the circuit court. Most of the accused men then left for Nauvoo, but Joseph and Hyrum remained for an interview with Governor Ford. That evening a constable appeared with a mittimus (a commitment to prison) signed by Judge Smith to hold Joseph and Hyrum in jail until they could be tried for treason, a capital offense. Joseph and his lawyers protested that the mittimus was illegal, since there had been no mention of that charge at their hearing. Their complaints were taken to the governor, but he said he could not interrupt a civil officer in the discharge of his duty.

 

Judge Smith, as captain of the Greys, sent his soldiers to carry out the mittimus he had issued as justice of the peace. Joseph and Hyrum were hustled to Carthage Jail amidst a great rabble in the streets. Eight of their friends went with them, including John Taylor and Willard Richards. Dan Jones with his walking stick and Stephen Markham with his hickory cane, which he called the “rascal beater,” walked on either side of the Prophet and his brother warding off the drunken crowd. As it turned out, the stone jail was the safest place in town. Several of Joseph and Hyrum’s friends were permitted to stay with them.

 

The next day, 26 June, a hearing was held on the charge of treason. The defendants had no witnesses present; since treason was a non-bailable charge, they were required to remain in custody until another hearing could be held on 29 June. Some of the brethren met with Governor Ford and told him that if he went to Nauvoo, Joseph and Hyrum would not be safe in Carthage. Ford promised that he would take Joseph and Hyrum with him

 

[end of manual citation]

 

In summary, it was a complicated mess, with lots of gray. There were charges, they were shuffled around, there was ordered confinement, and with the circumstances of organized death threats, the venue was acknowledged as the most safe, with non-ordered-confined friends permitted to join Joseph in the jail. Friends, and guards were presented purportedly more to to protect Joseph than to halt an escape. Also not standard for ordinary inmate circumstances.

Edited February 11, 2014 by David T

[saemo]

It is obvious that critics need to come to church to learn church history. There is so much that they are unfamiliar with because they buy hook, line and sinker what the critic sites say.

This statement is so ironic! Good morning humor, thanks!

[sheilauk]

Hi everyone!

 

thank you for your comments, they made me smile.  Yes, for a time i was asleep and unfortunately unaware of your needs, my apologies. 

 

I'm quite safe thank you and my family, we live well away from the flooded and flooding areas, thank goodness.  In fact, I live at the top of quite a large hill just so I'm unlikely to be flooded!  We have had so much rain in the South of the country that it is quite horrible for them.  Even with some huge pumps going, the water is rising!

 

I haven't been able to post much because I am very busy at work at present and so haven't time to review the article so please bear with me for a day or two and I will respond as soon as I can.

 

all the best

 

Sheila

[saemo]

I suppose that it depends on the definition of protective custody. For joseph, technically yes. But in actuality no. And it wasn't just joseph in prison. They were also men who volunteered to be with him, like his brother. No charges were filed against them. So, the gun was not just for joseph's protection. Joseph was also a presidential candidate and the catharage greys were out to kill him.

 

The question that then needs to be asked is: how would one feel in a badly secure prison with one guard manning the entrance.with a hostile militia in town?

Obviously, to a person of faith, God's will is made manifest. Don't take that wrong. As you know, God calls some to martyrdom, in the imitation of Christ, and a martyr is one who accepts the will of God.

At any rate, there was another choice, to surrender himself peacefully to the mob in an attempt to save his friends in that manner. Who knows if that would have worked, but there were options.

I don't know why you think him being a presidential candidate meant something positive to the mob. They had come to the knowledge that Joseph had himself anointed King, and now this "King" sought to be the ruler of the U.S. To patriotic, frontier Americans not far removed, historically, from the American Revolution, this was treason.

If he had gone to trial, his "Kingship" would gave been shown to be delusional, and non threatening, IMO. But we'll never know.

[David T]

I don't know why you think him being a presidential candidate meant something positive to the mob. 

 

That wasn't what why me said. In fact, he made clear that the nature of his candidacy added to the known threat.

[ALarson]

Hi everyone!

 

thank you for your comments, they made me smile.  Yes, for a time i was asleep and unfortunately unaware of your needs, my apologies. 

 

I'm quite safe thank you and my family, we live well away from the flooded and flooding areas, thank goodness.  In fact, I live at the top of quite a large hill just so I'm unlikely to be flooded!  We have had so much rain in the South of the country that it is quite horrible for them.  Even with some huge pumps going, the water is rising!

 

I haven't been able to post much because I am very busy at work at present and so haven't time to review the article so please bear with me for a day or two and I will respond as soon as I can.

 

all the best

 

Sheila

Wonderful news on all counts.  We are looking forward to you reviewing what Tom Phillips posted yesterday.  Thank you!

[Buzzard]

Obviously, to a person of faith, God's will is made manifest. Don't take that wrong. As you know, God calls some to martyrdom, in the imitation of Christ, and a martyr is one who accepts the will of God.

At any rate, there was another choice, to surrender himself peacefully to the mob in an attempt to save his friends in that manner. Who knows if that would have worked, but there were options.

I don't know why you think him being a presidential candidate meant something positive to the mob. They had come to the knowledge that Joseph had himself anointed King, and now this "King" sought to be the ruler of the U.S. To patriotic, frontier Americans not far removed, historically, from the American Revolution, this was treason.

If he had gone to trial, his "Kingship" would gave been shown to be delusional, and non threatening, IMO. But we'll never know.

So, he should have just walked out, greeted the mob, and asked where they preferred to shoot him? Joseph knew he was going to his death, but that is different than a death wish. 

As for the Council of Fifty, and Joseph being anointed King, the saints expected-as did many 19th Century Christians-that the return of Christ was imminent. They believed that in the time just before his coming, that the governments of the world would collapse. The expectation was that at that point, the council would step up and provide governance until his actual return. Delusional? Hard to say 170 years later, but the fact is that neither the Council nor Joseph asserted nor made steps towards asserting governmental control over any non-LDS, unless you count those living under the city government of Nauvoo.  

[ALarson]

Again, maybe those who are discussing Joseph's and Hyrum's murder should open a new thread.  I am finding it interesting and would love an entire thread devoted to this topic.  But it's a good suggestion to keep it separate from this thread IMO.