President Monson Issued A Court Summons? Is This For Real?

[Kenngo1969]

 

Actually, The UK is one of the few countries in the world that has never received humanitarian aid from the Church.

If that's true (and I'm sorely tempted to issue a CFR), be that as it may, the Humanitarian Aid program, while it may be intended to provide broad relief after a widespread disaster, isn't the only way the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members assist their fellow human beings.  Fast Offerings are another.  (Or has no one in the UK ever received relief from Fast Offering funds, either?)

[Kenngo1969]

Hi everyone!

 

thank you for your comments, they made me smile.  Yes, for a time i was asleep and unfortunately unaware of your needs, my apologies. 

 

How could you possibly sleep at a time like this, when you know that your fellow Latter-day Saints in other parts of the world are waiting, on pins and needles, on the edges of their seats, with 'bated breath, for your next Master Work of UK Legal Erudition, to combat the nefarious plans of Phillips, et al?  How ... selfish! If you ask me, I think you need to revisit your priorities!  (Glad you and yours are OK. )

Edited February 11, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[why me]

This statement is so ironic! Good morning humor, thanks!

No problem. I thought that it was pretty good myself!

[The Nehor]

At any rate, there was another choice, to surrender himself peacefully to the mob in an attempt to save his friends in that manner. Who knows if that would have worked, but there were options.

Yes, if you would just be reasonable with the wolves. If only the Jews had listened to Gandhi's admonition to passively submit we also could have avoided the holocaust. So much waste. If only victims would be more understanding and caring.

[why me]

At any rate, there was another choice, to surrender himself peacefully to the mob in an attempt to save his friends in that manner. Who knows if that would have worked, but there were options.

 

I don't think that he had a chance to do that. The mob ran up the stairs shooting. They shot through the door killing joseph's brother. And they continued to shoot. No time to surrender and offer himself to save his friends. Joseph did not ask those people to join him. They volunteered to be with him to keep him company, thinking that there is safety in numbers.

 

I don't think that he had options at all.

 

And now we have today with the trumped up charges against the church and thomas s. monson. There is a lot of anger out there. And the critics feed the anger until it becomes a hulk like figure. And yet, the lds actually teaches some very good principles.: live the gospel, don't smoke, don't drink, don't do drugs, live economically, pray often , be family minded, love the neighbor, etc.

 

Difficult to understand the anger or hostility even by nonmormons.

Edited February 11, 2014 by why me

[why me]

I don't think that much will happen with this case. But it will be interesting to see just how it all plays out.

 

Edited February 11, 2014 by why me

[canard78]

Looks like you took this from yours or someone else's creative editing of the text, not the actual text. Was it you or someone else you quoted from?

Thanks for the full quote. The ellipses were mine. It was from a one-slide summary where I'd tried to capture what had happened for a Sunday School class without spending too long.

No intent to misrepresent it, was actually trying to summarise a complicated situation. But thanks for pasting in the full context.

[Scott Lloyd]

Aren't all inmates under protective custody ?

You're being intentionally obtuse.

[Scott Lloyd]

This statement is so ironic! Good morning humor, thanks!

Yours is the statement that's ironic, coming as it does from one who is so astoundingly and aggravatingly naive as to suggest that Joseph's life would have been preserved had he surrendered to a mob bent on killing him.

 

Sheesh!

Edited February 11, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Bob Crockett]

At any rate, there was another choice, to surrender himself peacefully to the mob in an attempt to save his friends in that manner. Who knows if that would have worked, but there were options.

Truly an interesting speculation.

 

Governor Ford induced him to surrender, as it was, with promises of protection by the state militia under his control.  And then, when unsafely in the jail, Ford withdrew the guard in favor of the Carthage Greys, many of whom were in disguise.   Some reports indicate that the state police fired over the heads of the storming Greys or fired blanks.  In any event, Ford's behavior was very contrary to what he promised Joseph Smith.

 

So, at least in hindsight, I doubt that surrndering to save his friends would have given him any comfort given Ford's willingness to break his oath.

 

Can you imagine a modern governor withdrawing the state police around a town jail in favor of farmers and townsmen in blackface and Indian garb, armed to the teeth?

 

In a separate and unrelated tangent, I've always maintained that this singular event caused Brigham Young to oppose Buchanan's army with passive but armed resistence. 

Edited February 11, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[saemo]

Yours is the statement that's ironic, coming as it does from one who is so astoundingly and aggravatingly naive as to suggest that Joseph's life would have been preserved had he surrendered to a mob bent on killing him.

 

Sheesh!

I didn't say or imply that his life would be preserved.

Edited February 11, 2014 by saemo

[saemo]

You're being intentionally obtuse.

No, more like stating the obvious.

[Scott Lloyd]

No, more like stating the obvious.

And in so doing ignoring the broader point that Joseph Smith was not in the jail for criminal wrongdoing and hence, it would not have been untoward -- or "shocking," as you put it -- for him to have a pistol in his possession for protection.

[Scott Lloyd]

I didn't say or imply that his life would be preserved.

So you're saying Joseph should have voluntarily submitted to death by the hands of a lawless mob? And that this would have afforded greater protection to his supportive friends?

[saemo]

So you're saying Joseph should have voluntarily submitted to death by the hands of a lawless mob? And that this would have afforded greater protection to his supportive friends?

I'm saying it was an option. What the outcome would be, I already said no one knows. And as I already said to Why Me, read about Maximillian Kolbe to see where I'm coming from.

Edited February 11, 2014 by saemo

[saemo]

And in so doing ignoring the broader point that Joseph Smith was not in the jail for criminal wrongdoing and hence, it would not have been untoward -- or "shocking," as you put it -- for him to have a pistol in his possession for protection.

He was in jail awaiting a hearing. I'm fairly certain an inmate, who is there for any reason, isn't given a firearm. Ever.

 

 

Don't believe me? Try giving a firearm to anyone in a jail, see what happens.

[The Nehor]

He was in jail awaiting a hearing. I'm fairly certain an inmate, who is there for any reason, isn't given a firearm. Ever.

 

 

Don't believe me? Try giving a firearm to anyone in a jail, see what happens.

 

I think there is probably a distinct difference between a single guy in a jail under threat from mob violence with one guard in frontier America compared to a modern jail that is usually holding multiple prisoners being held for bail and/or serving a short sentence.

[thesometimesaint]

He was in jail awaiting a hearing. I'm fairly certain an inmate, who is there for any reason, isn't given a firearm. Ever.

 

 

Don't believe me? Try giving a firearm to anyone in a jail, see what happens.

 

Actually it is not that hard to get contraband into a prison even today.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/16/smartphones-in-prison-new-contraband-allows-inmates-to-make-money.html

 

Guns are a little harder but not impossible.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/03/justice/new-orleans-jail-video/

 

Yesteryear it was even easier.

[Scott Lloyd]

He was in jail awaiting a hearing. I'm fairly certain an inmate, who is there for any reason, isn't given a firearm. Ever.

 

 

Don't believe me? Try giving a firearm to anyone in a jail, see what happens.

At this point, I'm unclear what it is, precisely, that you are "shocked" over: that he was able to get a firearm or the belief that it is justifiable under the circumstances that he had one.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Bob Crockett]

Actually, Joseph Smith was a prisoner of the state militia.  It was a quasi-military affair, not a county superior court proceeding.  

 

He was being held for, specifically, treason by reason of the Nauvoo City Council's declaration of martial law (which Ford later conceded in his memoirs was justified). He was charged with treason because any other offense would have been bailable or subject to Nauvoo's writ of habeas corpus (while he was in city boundaries). Treason is a military affair.  

 

Having said that, the constable in charge of the jail did nothing to prevent the coming and goings of Joseph Smith's friends, and apparently didn't search them.  I consider this very mild offense to be far less significant than Governor Ford giving Joseph Smith his word that the state militia would protect him from the Carthage Greys.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[why me]

At this point, I'm unclear what it is, precisely that you are "shocked" over: that he was able to get a firearm or that it is justifiable under the circumstances that he had one.

Let me explain it to you. Saemo and her friends believe that a true christian martyr goes to their death willingly for christ. They base their assumption on the catholic tradition. So, Joseph was not martyred because he had a gun. I have seen such discussions on the catholic board. What is overlooked by most is that catharage jail was not a prison. It was more like a home. No one was locked inside. And a narrow staircase separated the mobs from the men in the room. Also, it was not uncommon for people to have a gun especially if they were not exactly in jail. The gun was not to protect them from a mob but from a guman who may be tempted to try to kill him.

[flameburns623]

So: this is the "President Monsoon Summonsed to British Court For Smuggling A Pistol to Joseph Smith In Carthage Illinois" thread?

Is this for real?

[Scott Lloyd]

Let me explain it to you. Saemo and her friends believe that a true christian martyr goes to their death willingly for christ. They base their assumption on the catholic tradition. So, Joseph was not martyred because he had a gun. I have seen such discussions on the catholic board.

 

I'm aware of such misguided thinking. That's why I rejected it out-of-hand several posts ago.

 

What is overlooked by most is that catharage jail was not a prison. It was more like a home. No one was locked inside. And a narrow staircase separated the mobs from the men in the room. Also, it was not uncommon for people to have a gun especially if they were not exactly in jail. The gun was not to protect them from a mob but from a guman who may be tempted to try to kill him.

 

I have been inside Carthage Jail several times and have taken pictures inside of it. There are and were cells therein, with bars.

 

But Joseph and his companions were not locked inside the cells. They were accommodated in the jailer's own bedroom. And they were not incarcerated as criminals. They were confined therein ostensibly for their own protection.

[Scott Lloyd]

So: this is the "President Monsoon Summonsed to British Court For Smuggling A Pistol to Joseph Smith In Carthage Illinois" thread?

Is this for real?

Get saemo to stop pushing her theories and insinuations in this thread, and I'll stop responding to her here.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[sheilauk]

In an attempt to get the thread backin track....

Its late here in the UK and I've only quickly read through the post Michelle d referred to from another board so won't comment in detail. A small portion of it is correct. Much is speculation,misunderstanding and misrepresentation. The most egregious thing is the persistence in treating it as a lawsuit. This is a criminal prosecution against one man, not the church. Any sentence will be on the man only. A court on sentencing can make no orders against the church eg freezing assets. And as it is a criminal prosecution, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. Pres Monson does not have to prove his honesty or the truthfulness of the allegations.

The tax thing is also a red herring. I do not know of any organisation that suggests when you gift aid you can get money back or that you should pay 20percent less because the taxman will be paying the difference! It is advertised as use gift aid so that your gift is worth even more to the charity. I'm not convinced that you can get money back either.

I love the law. I love practicing it and reading it. I am of the belief that a strong and independent legal system is essential to ensure freedom. I know that means allowing for mistakes and for excess. But I grow more and more appalled that someone should abuse the right to prosecute by such a grandstanding action whose aim seems to be to gleefully destroy the Church without apparent thought for the consequences for everyone not just the LDS.