Bruce R Mcconkie And The Criticism He Receives

[DBMormon]

I am looking for a quote from Elder McConkie's family where they speak out about the criticism Elder McConkie Received

I know it exists and I read it like a week ago but can not find.

Thanks

[CMZ]

He is criticized in and out of the Church. When his son Joseph Fielding McConkie was mission president in Scotland evangelicals would find out he was there and damn him to the deepest depths of hell because he was the son of the guy who taught that we must engage in good works in addition to the even more important grace of Christ. I'd heard this from a couple different sources.

 

Having said that, I don't know of a recent statement by his family on this. Even people in the Church criticize him and usually they do so on the basis of very little true understanding of what Elder McConkie was like. I even did so at one point. Early on in my mission I had another elder offer me a McConkie talk tape to listen to and I turned it down saying, "I don't really like how  he's all hellfire and damnation." But once I actually started reading his stuff I saw he wasn't really like that. The fact that he may have said something now and then that wasn't totally 100% accurate doesn't stop him from being one of the great doctrinal teachers of this dispensation. We already know not to expect perfection from other mortals.

[Scott Lloyd]

He is criticized in and out of the Church. When his son Joseph Fielding McConkie was mission president in Scotland evangelicals would find out he was there and damn him to the deepest depths of hell because he was the son of the guy who taught that we must engage in good works in addition to the even more important grace of Christ. I'd heard this from a couple different sources.

 

Having said that, I don't know of a recent statement by his family on this. Even people in the Church criticize him and usually they do so on the basis of very little true understanding of what Elder McConkie was like. I even did so at one point. Early on in my mission I had another elder offer me a McConkie talk tape to listen to and I turned it down saying, "I don't really like how  he's all hellfire and damnation." But once I actually started reading his stuff I saw he wasn't really like that. The fact that he may have said something now and then that wasn't totally 100% accurate doesn't stop him from being one of the great doctrinal teachers of this dispensation. We already know not to expect perfection from other mortals.

Elder McConkie, as well as anyone I know of, taught that one need not achieve perfection in mortality to be saved, that as long as one is charting a course toward eternal life, he will not lose his salvation.

 

That is, or should be, very reassuring to anyone.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[DBMormon]

Elder McConkie, as well as anyone else I know of, taught that one need not achieve perfection in mortality to be saved, that as long as one is charting a course toward eternal life, he will not lose his salvation.

 

That is, or should be, very reassuring to anyone.

 

There is a quote, as I read it a week or two ago where the family spoke out at some point sharing the hurt they felt from those who criticized him and stating that to disagree with him was one thing but to go on the negative attack that some do was saddening to them.

[Scott Lloyd]

There is a quote, as I read it a week or two ago where the family spoke out at some point sharing the hurt they felt from those who criticized him and stating that to disagree with him was one thing but to go on the negative attack that some do was saddening to them.

Joseph Fielding McConkie wrote a biography of his father. Perhaps what you're looking for is in there.

[CMZ]

Elder McConkie, as well as anyone else I know of, taught that one need not achieve perfection in mortality to be saved, that as long as one is charting a course toward eternal life, he will not lose his salvation.

 

That is, or should be, very reassuring to anyone.

 

Yes, the more I read the more I saw how reassuring he was; that, like Christ, he was doing much more to bring people to salvation then to tell them that, tsk, tsk, they probably wouldn't make it.

[CMZ]

There is a quote, as I read it a week or two ago where the family spoke out at some point sharing the hurt they felt from those who criticized him and stating that to disagree with him was one thing but to go on the negative attack that some do was saddening to them.

 

When you're dead and you are at a certain level of fame (for lack of a better term) people will say anything they want to about you and many will believe it.

[Freedom]

I don't have a reference but i recall a rather public battle between some of his children and the church about making his writings official publications of the church the way Talmage's were. It was a long time ago, but I seem to remember reading about it in the salt lake papers. I know his son Joseph Feilding McConkie has made cautionary comments about dismissing general authorities because of certain opinions they may have expressed. If McConkie received criticisms, he can stand in line behind his father-on-law Joseph Fielding Smith. To be fair, I think that McConkie is quoted more than any other general authority in church material. 

 

For every wrong comment he made a hundred right comments. 

[BCSpace]

BRM is one of the greatest Apostles ever.  Just because I disagree with some of his (mostly) non doctrinal opinions doesn't change that.  Russel M Nelson too even though he always misses the mark in his futile attempts to chip away at Evolution.

[Freedom]

Not to mention Packard's recent talks on homosexuality which goes blatantly against the churches official position which he would have had a hand in drafting. I can just imagine the heated council meetings as the prophet put his hand down. 

[BCSpace]

Not to mention Packard's recent talks on homosexuality which goes blatantly against the churches official position which he would have had a hand in drafting.

 

While I am aware of changes in a certain Conference talk, I'm not aware that the original transcript conflicts with the doctrine/position of the Church.  It might conflict with the PR attitude the Church is/was trying to convey though.

[Duncan]

While I am aware of changes in a certain Conference talk, I'm not aware that the original transcript conflicts with the doctrine/position of the Church.  It might conflict with the PR attitude the Church is/was trying to convey though.

 

 

didn't he ask why would God do that? implying he wouldn't and the answer is who knows the cause and purpose of homosexuality

Edited January 31, 2014 by Duncan

[Freedom]

The church's position is that it is not a choice, Packards view is that it very much is a choice. 

[BCSpace]

didn't he ask why would God do that? implying he wouldn't and the answer is who knows the cause of purpose of homosexuality

 

Ah yes.  I remember now.  Thanks for the correction.  God may indeed have done that according to Ether 12:27.  However, Packer is, as you noted, speaking from to realization that so far, there is no evidence to support a genetic cause.  In my own anecdotal experience, I strongly believe many cases are by choice.

[BCSpace]

The church's position is that it is not a choice,

 

My own understanding is that the context of http://www.mormonsandgays.org/ is that they are currently in a position in which they have come to a point in which they can no longer choose.

Edited January 31, 2014 by BCSpace

[Scott Lloyd]

The church's position is that it is not a choice, Packards view is that it very much is a choice. 

His name is not "Packard."

 

If you're going to coldly refer to him minus ecclesiastical title and using surname only, please get it right.

[Damien the Leper]

His name is not "Packard."

 

If you're going to coldly refer to him minus ecclesiastical title and using surname only, please get it right.

 

What Scott is trying to say is that you should either spell his name correctly, which is Packer, or refer to him as Elder Packer or President Packer. Even non-LDS call him by the ecclesiastical title.

[cinepro]

I am looking for a quote from Elder McConkie's family where they speak out about the criticism Elder McConkie Received

I know it exists and I read it like a week ago but can not find.

Thanks

 

This article by his son (Joseph McConkie) offers his view on the "Mormon Doctrine" saga:

 

http://www.ldsmag.com/www.meridianmagazine.com/books/040511mcconkie.html

 

It might be what you're thinking of.

[Buzzard]

I grew up hearing Elder McConkie call it straight in General Conference. Even when I was too young to appreciate all that he said, I knew that his talks were different. As I re-read them as an adult, I appreciate them more. 

And his final testimony, delivered just a few days before departing mortality, should absolve him of all human error in doctrinal pronouncements. I still get goose bumps any time I hear it. This was a man who no longer believed, he KNEW. 

[thesometimesaint]

Hold onto what is good and true, and then discard the rest. You'll be fine.

[DBMormon]

Found the Quote
 

 

"Growing up as a son of Bruce R. McConkie and a grandson of Joseph Fielding Smith had its moments. One of the experiences that my brothers and sisters and I shared regularly was to listen to people make disparaging remarks about our father or grandfather in Sunday School or other church classes. You could pretty well depend on the fact that if someone quoted either Elder McConkie or President Smith, that someone else would immediately respond with some kind of an insulting retort. I don't think it bothered any of us to have someone disagree with our father or grandfather, we just couldn't understand why the disagreement seemed so mean-spirited."

 

 

 

For me I struggle with the emotional feeling of frustration when I feel a LDS leader trying to push his opinion across as "The Official Position" when it is not.

Whether it is

- President Packer on SSA as a choice

- Elder McConkie on Evolution

- Pres. Jos. Fielding Smith on the age of the earth

- Elder Holland (whom I love and admire as much as any man) on tithing being gross

- Elder Oaks stating that while other institutions change their policies and Doctrines our policies and doctrines are based on truths God has determined as unchangeable (most perhaps.... but not all)

 

We have dozens of these where Leaders overstate what God has revealed.  I completely am ok with this happening except when they enforce such views as to draw a line in the sand that builds barriers to faith for others on things where God has not spoken.

 

Here is an explanation I gave in another place about how I understand how some could feel a need to lash out at leaders.

 

I am not trying to be disrespectful to Elder McConkie and other leaders who advocate their stance even when their opinion is taught by them as absolute truth but here is my answer and it is long but I think worth the read to understand why some feel a need to attack Elder McConkie and some others ------- > One point to remember might be why some get frustrated with such leaders. For those who have lost their faith they direct much of the blame and frustration towards anything that set up barriers to their faith. Having a leader draw unnecessary lines in the sand such as standing up in a religious forum and declaring one's opinion as absolute truth when it turns out to not be official invokes the anger of those in crisis.

For many who struggle with doubt and even those who leave no longer believing, they wanted nothing more then the Church to be true. They loved it. But it just didn't fit anymore. They could no longer reconcile the information they discovered with their assumptions and expectations. Many of these assumptions, false as they might be, are based around what leaders have said that they took as absolutes because the leader taught said opinion as an absolute.

Ex: when I got to a point where I believed Evolution, I was angry and lost some level of faith. I wondered why we as a Church, through leaders like Elder McConkie and Pres. J Fielding Smith, The Church felt a need to structure the Church with teachings that one could no longer believe once one was"informed". This happens on multiple issues and many feel forced to disbelieve when things they can't accept are taught as official Doctrine.

In a perfect world our leaders would be aware enough to only state absolutes when the Lord himself has spoken on such issues but the reality of that happening is near impossible as this is both difficult and also limits their influence. Many of those who struggle, ponder these issues for years, and try to make things fit but they can't (Elder Uchtdorf "Come Join With Us). In the midst of that struggle or after they leave, they hold a grudge against strong opinioned leaders as they feel it is these brethren who created a Mormonism they could no longer buy into.

I completely understand why some feel the need to denegrate such leaders and unfortunately I have done so myself more then once and may do so again as I still have frustrations and still link my crisis to those who set me up for a fall by teaching me a rigid faith with false assumptions when in reality the gospel is flexible and inclusive. If I may be permitted to be honest, I not only want a flexible, inclusive Mormonism, but I need it or I won't survive. When Leaders state their opinion on topics and state it in a way that it comes across like they are pronouncing Doctrine when in fact the Lord has not spoken, it sets me and others up to lose faith. Such teachings as (Some of these may be true but they are not official Doctrine and hence should not be taught as such but have)
- Tithing is only interpreted as Gross
- Earth is 6000 years old
- Race theories as Doctrine
- Inter racial marriage as sin
- Jesus was married
- Jesus had multiple wives
- Evolution is a heresy
- there are likely dozens of others

Combine this with the nonsense some members say
- Cain is Bigfoot
- Jesus drank grapejuice
- Jesus was absolutely married
- Only Mormons go to heaven
- add your own nonsense you have heard

Add all this up, assuming you grew up in a ward that made all this the absolute Doctrine, and then one day discover none of this fits, it often and understandably leads one to feel a loss of trust and to feel betrayal and to even feel anger and frustration. That thing you held and thought was beautiful has just been turned upside down. It has been ripped from your hands and ripped apart and then handed back to you.

Some can put it back together and some can not. And while it won't be well received, blame can in part be put on the shoulders of those who taught an unworkable mormonsim that taught opinion as truth and instructed others that to be a good mormon that you too had to structure your faith in in the same way that they were instructing you to. It is one thing to fix a false assumption once in a great while, but many who have major faith crises likely deal with multiple assumptions not fitting all at once. it may happen over a long period of time but the shelf comes down all at once and is unbearable. It saddens me that some leave not having understood what assumptions they had that they shouldn't of, but it is not in large part their fault that they were there to begin with. And this is why some feel a need to criticize those who they feel taught an disproportionately rigid and exclusive gospel. I end saying reality and feeling are two different things so any who read this ought to be able to discern that what we feel is not always truth and that to goes both ways.

 

[Bob Crockett]

Your list of gripes against the Faith are the same from thread to thread, but they just get more strident.  I thought this was a thread about Elder McConkie?

 

I don't think it is "nonsense" that "only Mormons go to heaven."    LDS theology teaches that only those baptized by authority will enter celestial glory.

 

If you define heaven as the three degrees of glory, then I'd respond by saying that I have never heard any Mormon leader teach that only Mormons go to that kind of heaven so defined.

 

I think you're either misinterpreting LDS Doctrine or you've created a straw man argument.  It is hard to tell from your writing. 

 

I could respond to your other points but when there's a shotgun blast the responses usually are overlooked.

 

Peace, brother. 

Edited January 31, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[Freedom]

Found the Quote

 

 

 

For me I struggle with the emotional feeling of frustration when I feel a LDS leader trying to push his opinion across as "The Official Position" when it is not.

 

So, you don't like the fact that the church is run by humans? Have you never come across this same issue at work or at home? Did your father not have very strong opinions that you now disagree with? When you vote, do you agree with everything your candidate stands for? You seem to be suggesting that we should never express our own perspectives on any matter. General Conference should be nothing more than old men reading from the scriptures. 

[DBMormon]

Bob - Actually not trying to be strident.  Your missing part of the story.  I interviewed Jim McConkie (nephew of Elder McConkie) for the Podcast.  In preparing for that interview we both agreed to speak about Elder McConkie as a large part of that discussion.  I wanted the quote for that interview but only found it after. 

 

I had asked for the quote in several mediums - facebook, emailed a few people, FairMormon, ect.... where I posted it several discussion ensued in regards from "Why would people say things about Elder MCConkie" to "the quote gives us a good jumping point for how we tackle dissenting with GA's

 

Feeling like similar questions would likely arise here I attempted to preempt that line of questions by stating for some why it happens and then following up with why I personally have a struggle with it.  It is my weakness but I also wish in a discussion of this sort to make known how I struggle with such things.  I am not saying people like me are innocent in our anger especially those who cross the line but yet it is in my mind understandable.

===============================================================================

 

Also - FREEDOM -

So, you don't like the fact that the church is run by humans?

 

 

 

It isn't that black and white.  Imagine your an apostle.  You believe that dogs are actually rabbits.  Other members of the Quorum of the 12 and FP dissagree with you.  you know Doctrine requires unanimity.  At this point while you may hold such view, it is not appropriate to teach one's view simply in the face of such disagreeing voices.  This goes beyond what the Lord has given us.  Now that said we all have weaknesses but and while we should be forgiving we also must acknowledge that for some it was these opinions taught as Doctrine that someone built there house of cards on.... and when it fell... it fell hard!!!

[Bob Crockett]

Bob - Actually not trying to be strident.  Your missing part of the story.  

Sure thing.  It is "you're," for future reference.  You'll find peace by accepting the foibles of human behavior in leaders, rather than holding them to an impossible standard of perfection and airing your gripes repeatedly with no acknowledgment of attempts to help you.   A sermon or book by a General Authority is always, basically, an expression of somebody's opinion.  I didn't necessarily agree with what Elder McConkie wrote in his Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, because he approached it as a scriptorian of the King James Bible rather than as a scholar of the New Testament, but if one understands that wisdom is still learned through the Spirit.

It isn't that black and white.  Imagine your an apostle.  You believe that dogs are actually rabbits.  Other members of the Quorum of the 12 and FP dissagree with you.  you know Doctrine requires unanimity.

 

Imagine you're a bishop from a mid-western state.  A member of your ward insists that he will publicly rebuke and criticize the church unless you, his bishop, act with the perfection expected of Mother Theresa.  How do you respond?   Explain to your member that bishops have their slipups and that some quarter should be granted them?   

Edited January 31, 2014 by Bob Crockett