Five Solas Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Article in the New York Times caught my eye and reminded me of a post made by Robert F. Smith on another thread: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62489-miraculous-anti-conversion-stories/?p=1209329937 A timely reminder not all churches are in decline. The NYT article is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/04/us/a-calvinist-revival-for-evangelicals.html?_r=0:0) --Erik
why me Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 I actually don't see any organized church here. I see small local branches who happen to get a calvinist pastor whether they like it or not. True, some small local churches have an increase in attendance because they like the message. But I wouldn't call it a revival. It seems that churches are also splitting because of the message of the calvinists.
bluebell Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Interesting. It does seem like Calvinism, is growing in popularity. Of course, the article does not make it clear if the congregations actually understand what Calvinism is and what the theology actually teaches, but many don't seem to mind the messages they are getting for sure. I thought it was especially interesting that some churches were hiring pastors without even asking what their theology is, and that some pastors were sneaking Calvinism into churches, causes discord and separation. These were some problems with and weaknesses of Protestantism that I had never considered before. Running a local protestant church must truly be a difficult thing. Kudos to those who want to take on that challenge. I guess only the next ten years will show how this all plays out and whether or not this is just another protestant fad or something protestants are really and sincerely feeling called towards by the Spirit. (and i don't mean to imply that all of protestant teachings or churches are based on fads. I'm speaking more to the article's mention of how quickly different theological philosophies seem to travel through some churches, only to be replaced by a new theological philosophy a few years later.) 2
boblloyd91 Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 I actually read that article first thing this morning, glad to see someone else noticed it. I was wondering what you thought of the article mentioning this possibly being a fad in evangelicalism. Do you agree? Disagree? I am likely generalizing here, but it seems that people who follow calvinistic theology tend to be less prone to (or even outright against) the latest trends in Christianity. For example, I don't recall seeing too many reformed talking about the rapture, and I saw a pretty brutal video on youtube a few years ago where John Piper ripped apart the prosperity gospel. 1
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Article in the New York Times caught my eye and reminded me of a post made by Robert F. Smith on another thread: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62489-miraculous-anti-conversion-stories/?p=1209329937 A timely reminder not all churches are in decline. The NYT article is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/04/us/a-calvinist-revival-for-evangelicals.html?_r=0:0) --ErikThe tragedy is that Calvinism, is the belief that God preordained who would be saved and others he would damn. This decision was made before anyone was born and that Christ only died for the pre-selected at not all mankind. They believe that there is no free will. The worst thing is the belief that that even infants are born in sin, and if they die young they must go to hell. The horror of this is (I fear) that those who believe in such a God, will sadly meet him and find out that the lack of Charity, will be extended to them.
Vance Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) FTA In the Southern Baptist Convention, the country’s largest Protestant denomination, the rise of Calvinism has provoked discord. It is no wonder why. Calvinist believe that God saves who He wills (for His own reasons). But ONLY their fellow Calvinists are among them. Edited January 6, 2014 by Vance
Yirgacheffe Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 The tragedy is that Calvinism, is the belief that God preordained who would be saved and others he would damn. This decision was made before anyone was born and that Christ only died for the pre-selected at not all mankind. They believe that there is no free will. The worst thing is the belief that that even infants are born in sin, and if they die young they must go to hell.The horror of this is (I fear) that those who believe in such a God, will sadly meet him and find out that the lack of Charity, will be extended to them.Why? This seems just as horrifying as what you describe in Calvinism.
bluebell Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Why? This seems just as horrifying as what you describe in Calvinism. Perhaps Pa Pa is thinking of those verses which teach that we will be judged in the same way that we judge others, and is implying that those who find joy in believing that they have been elected by God, and are self righteous in their views of those they believe haven't been elected, will someday experience the same level of mercy that they extended to others. I'm not suggesting that this is how Calvinists in general view things, only that this might be what Pa Pa was thinking of.
mfbukowski Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Article in the New York Times caught my eye and reminded me of a post made by Robert F. Smith on another thread: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62489-miraculous-anti-conversion-stories/?p=1209329937 A timely reminder not all churches are in decline. The NYT article is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/04/us/a-calvinist-revival-for-evangelicals.html?_r=0:0) --ErikWhat a sad way to see mankind! 1
boblloyd91 Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 What a sad way to see mankind! True, and an even sadder way to see God.
Five Solas Posted January 7, 2014 Author Posted January 7, 2014 I actually read that article first thing this morning, glad to see someone else noticed it. I was wondering what you thought of the article mentioning this possibly being a fad in evangelicalism. Do you agree? Disagree? I am likely generalizing here, but it seems that people who follow calvinistic theology tend to be less prone to (or even outright against) the latest trends in Christianity. For example, I don't recall seeing too many reformed talking about the rapture, and I saw a pretty brutal video on youtube a few years ago where John Piper ripped apart the prosperity gospel.It's a good question. On the one hand, it's hard to argue anything that has stood the test of time (~ five centuries) is a "fad." Suspect the writer was looking to generate some extra interest/excitement with that bit. On the other, perhaps there is a bit of pendulum motion between Calvinists and Arminians in the Protestant flavor of Christianity (and the trend now seems clearly in favor of the former). I agree with you that adherents of Reformed Theology don't seem to place a lot of emphasis on end times (e.g., the rapture). But as that topic always seems to generate a lot of speculation (without much application)--you won't find me complaining. And I also think "prosperity gospel" is a gross distortion of what the Bible teaches. I haven't seen the video you mention, but I'm definitely a fan of John Piper. Feel free to post a link, if you have a moment. --Erik
boblloyd91 Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 @ five solas: I saw this over four years ago and can't recall the title of it. I looked him up when someone on a blog I frequent mentioned him. In all honesty the only Calvinist leaning preacher that I have really read in depth is Tim Keller. I especially liked his book "The Reason For God". Being LDS, my sympathies lie more with an Arminian worldview. Tim Keller helped me recognize that people who subscribe to Reformed Theology aren't villains my less charitable side sometimes labels them as. I still am leery of those that preach double predestination however!
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Why? This seems just as horrifying as what you describe in Calvinism.Could you expand on this comment?
Five Solas Posted January 8, 2014 Author Posted January 8, 2014 @ five solas: I saw this over four years ago and can't recall the title of it. I looked him up when someone on a blog I frequent mentioned him. In all honesty the only Calvinist leaning preacher that I have really read in depth is Tim Keller. I especially liked his book "The Reason For God". Being LDS, my sympathies lie more with an Arminian worldview. Tim Keller helped me recognize that people who subscribe to Reformed Theology aren't villains my less charitable side sometimes labels them as. I still am leery of those that preach double predestination however!A member of the LDS Church who reads Keller. A rare specimen, to be sure... Good on you, boblloyd91! His The Prodigal God is excellent as well, IMO --Erik
Yirgacheffe Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Could you expand on this comment?I see your scenario as just as horrifying as the Calvinistic belief? If that helps, I don't know what else to say.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Why? This seems just as horrifying as what you describe in Calvinism.I told the truth. How is that horrifying.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 I believe Calvinism is the worst of Protestant heresies, and Mr. Calvin does not deserve a place of honor among the Reformers.
The Nehor Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 I believe Calvinism is the worst of Protestant heresies, and Mr. Calvin does not deserve a place of honor among the Reformers.I still think the prosperity gospel is the worst protestant heresy.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 Why? This seems just as horrifying as what you describe in Calvinism.God did say that you will be judged with the same judgement that you judge others. And you are right that is some what horrifiying. BUt such is the nature of what the scriptures teach.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 8, 2014 Posted January 8, 2014 I still think the prosperity gospel is the worst protestant heresy. I believe in the "Prosperity Gospel"... Jacob 2:24 (1908 RLDS) And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ, ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them, for the intent to do good; to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick, and the afflicted.
Yirgacheffe Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 God did say that you will be judged with the same judgement that you judge others. And you are right that is some what horrifiying. BUt such is the nature of what the scriptures teach.I don't see how people believe in Calvinism are being judgemental. Just because they believe it doesn't mean they go around saying I'm in your out.
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