The Pilgrim's Progress (John Bunyan)

[Five Solas]

A couple of recent threads on the forum have brought to mind the 17th century's allegorical novel--John Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress.  For those unfamiliar, it's a story that has never been out of print and second only to the Bible in terms of number of printings.  You can read it here (or on many other sites).  Difficult to understate its influence, from C.S. Lewis to Alan Moore (yes, that reference was for you, boblloyd91) from Joseph Smith to Mark Twain.  Last year the U.K.'s Guardian ranked it first among best novels written in English, calling it the "ultimate English classic."

And now, it feels time to dedicate a thread here on this board to Bunyan's work.  And it's certainly interesting to consider in the context of the questions/discussions on the "the gift of grace" thread near the bottom of page 1 (it might have slipped to page 2 by the time you read this).

:0)

Here's an excerpt (from The Ninth Stage), a dialogue between "Christian" and "Ignorance."  Recall, this is an allegorical novel--and please forgive the archaic English/KJV style prose.  ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ignorance: Pray, what count you good thoughts, and a life according to God’s commandments?

Christian: There are good thoughts of divers kinds; some respecting ourselves, some God, some Christ, and some other things.

Ignorance: What be good thoughts respecting ourselves?

Christian: Such as agree with the word of God.

Ignorance: When do our thoughts of ourselves agree with the word of God?

Christian: When we pass the same judgment upon ourselves which the word passes. To explain myself: the word of God saith of persons in a natural condition, “There is none righteous, there is none that doeth good.” It saith also, that, “every imagination of the heart of man is only evil, and that continually.” Gen. 6:5; Rom. 3. And again, “The imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth.” Gen. 8:21. Now, then, when we think thus of ourselves, having sense thereof, then are our thoughts good ones, because according to the word of God.

Ignorance: I will never believe that my heart is thus bad.

Christian: Therefore thou never hadst one good thought concerning thyself in thy life. But let me go on. As the word passeth a judgment upon our hearts, so it passeth a judgment upon our ways; and when the thoughts of our hearts and ways agree with the judgment which the word giveth of both, then are both good, because agreeing thereto.

Ignorance: Make out your meaning.

Christian: Why, the word of God saith, that man’s ways are crooked ways, not good but perverse; it saith, they are naturally out of the good way, that they have not known it. Psa. 125:5; Prov. 2:15; Rom. 3:12. Now, when a man thus thinketh of his ways, I say, when he doth sensibly, and with heart-humiliation, thus think, then hath he good thoughts of his own ways, because his thoughts now agree with the judgment of the word of God.

Ignorance: What are good thoughts concerning God?

Christian: Even, as I have said concerning ourselves, when our thoughts of God do agree with what the word saith of him; and that is, when we think of his being and attributes as the word hath taught, of which I cannot now discourse at large. But to speak of him with reference to us: then have we right thoughts of God when we think that he knows us better than we know ourselves, and can see sin in us when and where we can see none in ourselves; when we think he knows our inmost thoughts, and that our heart, with all its depths, is always open unto his eyes; also when we think that all our righteousness stinks in his nostrils, and that therefore he cannot abide to see us stand before him in any confidence, even in all our best performances.

Ignorance: Do you think that I am such a fool as to think that God can see no further than I; or that I would come to God in the best of my performances?

Christian: Why, how dost thou think in this matter?

Ignorance: Why, to be short, I think I must believe in Christ for justification.

Christian: How! think thou must believe in Christ, when thou seest not thy need of him! Thou neither seest thy original nor actual infirmities; but hast such an opinion of thyself, and of what thou doest, as plainly renders thee to be one that did never see the necessity of Christ’s personal righteousness to justify thee before God. How, then, dost thou say, I believe in Christ?

Ignorance: I believe well enough, for all that.

Christian: How dost thou believe?

Ignorance: I believe that Christ died for sinners; and that I shall be justified before God from the curse, through his gracious acceptance of my obedience to his laws. Or thus, Christ makes my duties, that are religious, acceptable to his Father by virtue of his merits, and so shall I be justified.

Christian: Let me give an answer to this confession of thy faith.

1. Thou believest with a fantastical faith; for this faith is nowhere described in the word.

2. Thou believest with a false faith; because it taketh justification from the personal righteousness of Christ, and applies it to thy own.

3. This faith maketh not Christ a justifier of thy person, but of thy actions; and of thy person for thy action’s sake, which is false.

4. Therefore this faith is deceitful, even such as will leave thee under wrath in the day of God Almighty: for true justifying faith puts the soul, as sensible of its lost condition by the law, upon flying for refuge unto Christ’s righteousness; (which righteousness of his is not an act of grace by which he maketh, for justification, thy obedience accepted with God, but his personal obedience to the law, in doing and suffering for us what that required at our hands;) this righteousness, I say, true faith accepteth; under the skirt of which the soul being shrouded, and by it presented as spotless before God, it is accepted, and acquitted from condemnation.

Ignorance: What! would you have us trust to what Christ in his own person has done without us? This conceit would loosen the reins of our lust, and tolerate us to live as we list: for what matter how we live, if we may be justified by Christ’s personal righteousness from all, when we believe it?

Christian: Ignorance is thy name, and as thy name is, so art thou: even this thy answer demonstrateth what I say. ...

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So, what do LDS here think?  Is Bunyan's work just another illustration of how the Christian Faith had become corruption & abomination (borrowing language of the "First Vision") and therefore required Joseph Smith's restoration--or is there something more that might be said on its behalf?

--Erik

 

[JLHPROF]

Can't really review the text right now but my father who spent years studying the temple said Pilgrim's Progress had much in common with the principles found in the endowment.

[waveslider]

"....Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4  And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5  Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6  And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7  And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8  But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9  Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
Matthew 13:3-9

"18  ¶ Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19  When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20  But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21  Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22  He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23  But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
Matthew 13:18-23

Grace and works are part of the same plant. If the seed of Grace gets planted into your soul and is received properly it will grow and bear the fruits of good works. Good works aren't done without that seed being firmly planted in your heart (stony ground), so you can't earn your way to anything from good works because there is no root of that grace in you and you fall anyway as soon as any real troubles arise. Rather the good works are a product of accepting that grace. LDS views aren't ignorant, Christian views are more properly found in Christ's own words as in this parable if you ask me, Just my two cents worth anyway.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Can't really review the text right now but my father who spent years studying the temple said Pilgrim's Progress had much in common with the principles found in the endowment.

Yes, based on the main themes and the sequence of his story, that is certainly true.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Five Solas said:

............................................................................................

And now, it feels time to dedicate a thread here on this board to Bunyan's work.  And it's certainly interesting to consider in the context of the questions/discussions on the "the gift of grace" thread near the bottom of page 1 (it might have slipped to page 2 by the time you read this).........

The Bible and the Book of Common Prayer were far more commonly used and influential in those times, even though The Pilgrim's Progress (part 1 here is published in 1677) was a best-seller in its day, and is still read by evangelicals.  There is also a film version:  

 

6 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Here's an excerpt (from The Ninth Stage), a dialogue between "Christian" and "Ignorance."  Recall, this is an allegorical novel--and please forgive the archaic English/KJV style prose.  .............................................

....................................

Ignorance: Why, to be short, I think I must believe in Christ for justification.

Christian: How! think thou must believe in Christ, when thou seest not thy need of him! Thou neither seest thy original nor actual infirmities; but hast such an opinion of thyself, and of what thou doest, as plainly renders thee to be one that did never see the necessity of Christ’s personal righteousness to justify thee before God. How, then, dost thou say, I believe in Christ?

Ignorance: I believe well enough, for all that.

Christian: How dost thou believe?

Ignorance: I believe that Christ died for sinners; and that I shall be justified before God from the curse, through his gracious acceptance of my obedience to his laws. Or thus, Christ makes my duties, that are religious, acceptable to his Father by virtue of his merits, and so shall I be justified.

......................................................................................

Well, you have John Bunyan as Christian teaching original sin, which is false doctrine, and you have Ignorance thinking that going through the motions of religious observance will justify him, which is a vain hope.  Bunyan hated the Church of England, and was repeatedly imprisoned for opposing it.  Both miss the point, which is that faith without works is dead as a body without a soul.

6 hours ago, Five Solas said:

So, what do LDS here think?  Is Bunyan's work just another illustration of how the Christian Faith had become corruption & abomination (borrowing language of the "First Vision") and therefore required Joseph Smith's restoration--or is there something more that might be said on its behalf?

--Erik

Of course that is not in fact Joseph's language from the First Vision.  You need to learn to quote, Erik.  Speaking of denominational christianity, the Lord told Joseph that he should join none of them because "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

[notHagoth7]

9 hours ago, Five Solas said:

A couple of recent threads on the forum have brought to mind the 17th century's allegorical novel--John Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress....

Pilgrim's Progress was recommended to me several weeks ago. 

Since it's a narrative, and it is extremely rare when I read a narrative, I initially opted to dip my toe into the content by ordering a DVD of a film based on the book, which arrived earlier this month. Am working my way through it slowly. 
 

The timing of your thread is interesting. I may comment here as I get deeper into the DVD.

[boblloyd91]

I think one of these days we need to start a thread where each side defines what they mean by "works". Anyways I know that Pilgrim's Progress hasn't been discussed much to my knowledge in church, though I believe Ezra Taft Benson referenced it in a talk once, which I believe was used in a positive way.

 Robert already said my thoughts, in that Bunyan seems to be coming from a perspective of Total Depravity (T in TULIP) which I don't subscribe to. I believe in our fallen nature to be sure, but don't feel that the change is made by an alien righteousness, rather the willingness and submission of the heart to being changed by Christ (see Cornelius in the Book of Acts chapter 10). 

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by boblloyd91

[Five Solas]

17 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

I think one of these days we need to start a thread where each side defines what they mean by "works". Anyways I know that Pilgrim's Progress hasn't been discussed much to my knowledge in church, though I believe Ezra Taft Benson referenced it in a talk once, which I believe was used in a positive way.

 Robert already said my thoughts, in that Bunyan seems to be coming from a perspective of Total Depravity (T in TULIP) which I don't subscribe to. I believe in our fallen nature to be sure, but don't feel that the change is made by an alien righteousness, rather the willingness and submission of the heart to being changed by Christ (see Cornelius in the Book of Acts chapter 10). 

 

Ah, but at least you approve of my Alan Moore mention, being a fan of the graphic novel form, as you are...

;0)

--Erik

[boblloyd91]

1 minute ago, Five Solas said:

Ah, but at least you approve of my Alan Moore mention, being a fan of the graphic novel form, as you are...

;0)

--Erik

Sure do! The Watchmen is without a doubt one of my favorites. Which works oh his were inspired by Bunyan?

[Five Solas]

22 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

Sure do! The Watchmen is without a doubt one of my favorites. Which works oh his were inspired by Bunyan?

Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen draws its protagonist, Christian, from Bunyan's work. 

:0)

--Erik

[boblloyd91]

6 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen draws its protagonist, Christian, from Bunyan's work. 

:0)

--Erik

That's cool I didn't know that. I haven't read Bunyan, but there were a lot of good authors and poets during that time period. I know that I've read Paradise Lost and highly enjoyed it. Also, there was an amazing poet named Thomas Traherne, whose "Centuries of Meditations" is worth a read.

Edited September 20, 2016 by boblloyd91

[Gervin]

On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 1:33 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, you have John Bunyan as Christian teaching original sin, which is false doctrine, and you have Ignorance thinking that going through the motions of religious observance will justify him, which is a vain hope.  Bunyan hated the Church of England, and was repeatedly imprisoned for opposing it.  Both miss the point, which is that faith without works is dead as a body without a soul.

I don't think Christian would agree with your assessment of his belief:

Quote

As the word passeth a judgment upon our hearts, so it passeth a judgment upon our ways; and when the thoughts of our hearts and ways agree with the judgment which the word giveth of both, then are both good, because agreeing thereto.

 

[stemelbow]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 4:29 PM, Five Solas said:

A couple of recent threads on the forum have brought to mind the 17th century's allegorical novel--John Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress.  For those unfamiliar, it's a story that has never been out of print and second only to the Bible in terms of number of printings.  You can read it here (or on many other sites).  Difficult to understate its influence, from C.S. Lewis to Alan Moore (yes, that reference was for you, boblloyd91) from Joseph Smith to Mark Twain.  Last year the U.K.'s Guardian ranked it first among best novels written in English, calling it the "ultimate English classic."

And now, it feels time to dedicate a thread here on this board to Bunyan's work.  And it's certainly interesting to consider in the context of the questions/discussions on the "the gift of grace" thread near the bottom of page 1 (it might have slipped to page 2 by the time you read this).

:0)

Here's an excerpt (from The Ninth Stage), a dialogue between "Christian" and "Ignorance."  Recall, this is an allegorical novel--and please forgive the archaic English/KJV style prose.  ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ignorance: Pray, what count you good thoughts, and a life according to God’s commandments?

Christian: There are good thoughts of divers kinds; some respecting ourselves, some God, some Christ, and some other things.

Ignorance: What be good thoughts respecting ourselves?

Christian: Such as agree with the word of God.

Ignorance: When do our thoughts of ourselves agree with the word of God?

Christian: When we pass the same judgment upon ourselves which the word passes. To explain myself: the word of God saith of persons in a natural condition, “There is none righteous, there is none that doeth good.” It saith also, that, “every imagination of the heart of man is only evil, and that continually.” Gen. 6:5; Rom. 3. And again, “The imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth.” Gen. 8:21. Now, then, when we think thus of ourselves, having sense thereof, then are our thoughts good ones, because according to the word of God.

Ignorance: I will never believe that my heart is thus bad.

Christian: Therefore thou never hadst one good thought concerning thyself in thy life. But let me go on. As the word passeth a judgment upon our hearts, so it passeth a judgment upon our ways; and when the thoughts of our hearts and ways agree with the judgment which the word giveth of both, then are both good, because agreeing thereto.

Ignorance: Make out your meaning.

Christian: Why, the word of God saith, that man’s ways are crooked ways, not good but perverse; it saith, they are naturally out of the good way, that they have not known it. Psa. 125:5; Prov. 2:15; Rom. 3:12. Now, when a man thus thinketh of his ways, I say, when he doth sensibly, and with heart-humiliation, thus think, then hath he good thoughts of his own ways, because his thoughts now agree with the judgment of the word of God.

Ignorance: What are good thoughts concerning God?

Christian: Even, as I have said concerning ourselves, when our thoughts of God do agree with what the word saith of him; and that is, when we think of his being and attributes as the word hath taught, of which I cannot now discourse at large. But to speak of him with reference to us: then have we right thoughts of God when we think that he knows us better than we know ourselves, and can see sin in us when and where we can see none in ourselves; when we think he knows our inmost thoughts, and that our heart, with all its depths, is always open unto his eyes; also when we think that all our righteousness stinks in his nostrils, and that therefore he cannot abide to see us stand before him in any confidence, even in all our best performances.

Ignorance: Do you think that I am such a fool as to think that God can see no further than I; or that I would come to God in the best of my performances?

Christian: Why, how dost thou think in this matter?

Ignorance: Why, to be short, I think I must believe in Christ for justification.

Christian: How! think thou must believe in Christ, when thou seest not thy need of him! Thou neither seest thy original nor actual infirmities; but hast such an opinion of thyself, and of what thou doest, as plainly renders thee to be one that did never see the necessity of Christ’s personal righteousness to justify thee before God. How, then, dost thou say, I believe in Christ?

Ignorance: I believe well enough, for all that.

Christian: How dost thou believe?

Ignorance: I believe that Christ died for sinners; and that I shall be justified before God from the curse, through his gracious acceptance of my obedience to his laws. Or thus, Christ makes my duties, that are religious, acceptable to his Father by virtue of his merits, and so shall I be justified.

Christian: Let me give an answer to this confession of thy faith.

1. Thou believest with a fantastical faith; for this faith is nowhere described in the word.

2. Thou believest with a false faith; because it taketh justification from the personal righteousness of Christ, and applies it to thy own.

3. This faith maketh not Christ a justifier of thy person, but of thy actions; and of thy person for thy action’s sake, which is false.

4. Therefore this faith is deceitful, even such as will leave thee under wrath in the day of God Almighty: for true justifying faith puts the soul, as sensible of its lost condition by the law, upon flying for refuge unto Christ’s righteousness; (which righteousness of his is not an act of grace by which he maketh, for justification, thy obedience accepted with God, but his personal obedience to the law, in doing and suffering for us what that required at our hands;) this righteousness, I say, true faith accepteth; under the skirt of which the soul being shrouded, and by it presented as spotless before God, it is accepted, and acquitted from condemnation.

Ignorance: What! would you have us trust to what Christ in his own person has done without us? This conceit would loosen the reins of our lust, and tolerate us to live as we list: for what matter how we live, if we may be justified by Christ’s personal righteousness from all, when we believe it?

Christian: Ignorance is thy name, and as thy name is, so art thou: even this thy answer demonstrateth what I say. ...

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So, what do LDS here think?  Is Bunyan's work just another illustration of how the Christian Faith had become corruption & abomination (borrowing language of the "First Vision") and therefore required Joseph Smith's restoration--or is there something more that might be said on its behalf?

--Erik

 

I hope this little rendition doesn't do the book justice.  Sounds like a mere quibble about semantics to me.  Who cares how we describe it?  it seems like the most important thing is for someone to say it just as Bunyan wants them to, if he or she strays then he or she is condemned.  I can't stand such a legalistic mindset, myself. 

[Gervin]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I hope this little rendition doesn't do the book justice.  Sounds like a mere quibble about semantics to me.  Who cares how we describe it?  it seems like the most important thing is for someone to say it just as Bunyan wants them to, if he or she strays then he or she is condemned.  I can't stand such a legalistic mindset, myself. 

I think it's helpful to remember that the book is an allegory for the spiritual journey. It casts a wide net of human emotions, circumstances, and responses. While dogmatic in some respects, much of the the instructive value rests with the interplay between the reader and the human conditions revealed.  I'd suggest some background research before digging in too deep. 

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, Gervin said:

I don't think Christian would agree with your assessment of his belief:

Yet justification by faith alone is the Reformation principle uppermost in his opinion.  For, as Bunyan himself said:

Quote

(5.) By the imputation of [righteousness] to us, I mean God's making of it ours by an act of his grace, that we by it might be secured from the curse of the law.

(6.) When I say there is no other way to be justified, I cast away to that end the law, and all the works of the law as done by us.

Bunyan, “Justification By An Imputed Righteousness, or No Way to Heaven but by Jesus Christ,” 

Christian (Bunyan) himself says in response to Ignorance:

Quote

Thou believest with a false faith; because it taketh justification from the personal righteousness of Christ, and applies it to thy own. . . . This faith maketh not Christ a justifier of thy person, but of thy actions; and of thy person for thy action’s sake, which is false. . . . [T]rue justifying faith puts the soul, as sensible of its lost condition by the law, upon flying for refuge unto Christ’s righteousness, which righteousness of his is not an act of grace, by which he maketh, for justification, thy obedience accepted with God; but his personal obedience to the law, in doing and suffering for us what that required at our hands; this righteousness, I say, true faith accepteth, under the skirt of which, the soul being shrouded, and by it presented as spotless before God, it is accepted, and acquit from condemnation.  Bunyan, Works, III:158; cf. Romans 6:15.

 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Robert F. Smith