Do We Still Believe The Lord Directs His Church?

[Stone holm]

Also this seems a little like you would prefer to hold a current belief rather then even be open to truth.  Now I am not saying the ban did not come from God, but it is in the realm of possibilities.  It is also possible at some future day the Church may feel impressed to make a statement that touches on this.    Now while I hold out faith that the ban came from God, I also do not prefer to hold a current belief only because it keeps my faith intact.

 

Elder Uchtdorf said the following

 

 

 

It almost seems like he is saying we need to be willing to recognize when a belief is not truth and be completely willing to adopt new truths even if they change our paradigm.   We each have beliefs that are false, are we willing to change them or do we prefer to hold onto our beliefs regardless if they are true or not.  I get what your saying.  In the absence of absolute truth you will hold your faithful belief but can you also see how they can seem an unwillingness to open your beliefs up to close examination?

 

Whether the ban is of man or of God, I want to know and if the truth is out there I welcome it.

I think we can disbelieve things said by GAs, but if we were to disbelieve that The Lord had a hand in implementing and leaving in place something as important as the ban for a century, then yes that would not reflect well on the credibility of the Church. I have previously explained in detail my beliefs regarding the reason for the ban in detail, and the fact that it was due to the racist Saints not being able to live the higher law. Polygamy does not involve any credibility issue because it was always understood as only to be practiced when The Lord had need of it and not otherwise.

[why me]

Of course we've never seen the Mormons mock the "saved by grace" folks.......does that say much about the Mormons?

I have seen no mocking of the saved by grace people. I have read debates about it. To understand the mocking of the 'burning of the bosom' experience one must go on the sites of other faiths where mormonism is discussed. If members of other churches mock such claims it is a sign that they themselves do not have them. That was my point.

 

Exmembers of the lds church downplay the spiritual experiences that they had by exclaiming: Religious people of other faiths have such experiences. It is not just a mormon thing.

 

But it doesn't seem to be the case.

[canard78]

Deleted... I'm supposed to be on a break

Edited December 26, 2013 by canard78

[DBMormon]

I think we can disbelieve things said by GAs, but if we were to disbelieve that The Lord had a hand in implementing and leaving in place something as important as the ban for a century, then yes that would not reflect well on the credibility of the Church. I have previously explained in detail my beliefs regarding the reason for the ban in detail, and the fact that it was due to the racist Saints not being able to live the higher law. Polygamy does not involve any credibility issue because it was always understood as only to be practiced when The Lord had need of it and not otherwise.

 

Weren't the theories and interracial marriage as sin left just as long if not longer?  why is their going from Doctrine to racist nonsense less damaging to your faith?

[Tacenda]

Many other religions have similar benefits. For example, devout Muslims have 0 debt, no sex before marriage and don't drink alcohol. Does that say something about the truthfulness of Islam?

And we can compare that to the wonderful religions elsewhere that live very structured lives.  

[Palerider]

I have seen no mocking of the saved by grace people. I have read debates about it. To understand the mocking of the 'burning of the bosom' experience one must go on the sites of other faiths where mormonism is discussed. If members of other churches mock such claims it is a sign that they themselves do not have them. That was my point.

 

Exmembers of the lds church downplay the spiritual experiences that they had by exclaiming: Religious people of other faiths have such experiences. It is not just a mormon thing.

 

But it doesn't seem to be the case.

 

I heard plenty of mocking during the two years of my mission. And some afterwards.......

 

They may actually have the experience themselves, they just might not describe it in the language Joseph used. Having received the Testimony  of the Savior myself I would never have described it the way Joseph did but I knew what the symbology meant when I heard it. 

[Stone holm]

Weren't the theories and interracial marriage as sin left just as long if not longer?  why is their going from Doctrine to racist nonsense less damaging to your faith?

 

I think the same explanation applies to interacial marriage as did the ban on the Priesthood restriction.  The taboo on interracial marriage in our nation's culture did not start breaking down until the 1960's.  I can give you a specific anecdotal example of that.  As a legal intern, I helped prepare the defense of a black police officer in a southern Indiana city who had been framed by the City Police department for beating up the police department's white whore.  At the jury selection, my boss tried to get as many white women on the jury as possible.  I asked him, "What the heck are you doing?"  He replied, "Those jurors are going to go in with the attitude that if she, the victim, was messing around with blacks (except he used a different term) then she (the victim) deserved exactly what she got."  It later played out exactly the way he said, the jury acquited and it was the white women on the jury who voted for acquittal.  Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem with interracial marriage, in fact I believe it has done more to reduce racism in America than anything else, since the middle and lower economic classes love their grandchildren and nephew/nieces regardless of what color they are, and will not put up with insults or discrimination against them.  Although the press reports which accompanied the lifting of the ban also contained continued admonitions against interracial marriage, the admonitions were almost immediately ignored and filed in the dustbin of Church history.

[thesometimesaint]

Weren't the theories and interracial marriage as sin left just as long if not longer?  why is their going from Doctrine to racist nonsense less damaging to your faith?

 

King Solomon got into trouble for his interfaith marriages.

[Stone holm]

King Solomon got into trouble for his interfaith marriages.

 

Interfaith marriage still tend to be very problematic, don't know of a single other thing that is more likely to lead to inactivity than marrying outside the Church.  Obviously, an interracial marriage during the period in which the ban was in place almost always was an interfaith marriage with even greater likelihood of inactivity.  That problem was resolved when the restriction was lifted.

[DBMormon]

I think the same explanation applies to interacial marriage as did the ban on the Priesthood restriction.  The taboo on interracial marriage in our nation's culture did not start breaking down until the 1960's.  I can give you a specific anecdotal example of that.  As a legal intern, I helped prepare the defense of a black police officer in a southern Indiana city who had been framed by the City Police department for beating up the police department's white whore.  At the jury selection, my boss tried to get as many white women on the jury as possible.  I asked him, "What the heck are you doing?"  He replied, "Those jurors are going to go in with the attitude that if she, the victim, was messing around with blacks (except he used a different term) then she (the victim) deserved exactly what she got."  It later played out exactly the way he said, the jury acquited and it was the white women on the jury who voted for acquittal.  Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem with interracial marriage, in fact I believe it has done more to reduce racism in America than anything else, since the middle and lower economic classes love their grandchildren and nephew/nieces regardless of what color they are, and will not put up with insults or discrimination against them.  Although the press reports which accompanied the lifting of the ban also contained continued admonitions against interracial marriage, the admonitions were almost immediately ignored and filed in the dustbin of Church history.

 

 

This still didn't answer my question.  You are stating that to take the ban and make it racist nonsense would be problematic, so you choose to see it as motivated by God (revealed doctrine)

 

Why does the fact that the Brethren unitedly and over a long time span taught and declared that "interracial marriage as sin" was Doctrine along with the theories behind the ban being Doctrine, not bother you?  why is this not a deal breaker but the other is?

 

Regardless of the "Doctrine" when we take it and change the Doctrines of the past to the nonsense of the present isn't that problematic?

[why me]

And we can compare that to the wonderful religions elsewhere that live very structured lives.  

I have never heard anyone ever praying over the bible...asking god if it were true and receiving an answer. But mormons have when they prayed over the book of mormon. That kind of experience can be a game changer for many mormons. However exmormons attempt to downplay it. When one receives a powerful confirmation or spiritual experience after praying about the book of mormon, what is one to do? Not to mention of experiencing the presence of the holy ghost when over a member's house. That has happened to me. I think that such experiences are typically mormon.

 

I have never seen the church leaders lead people astray when giving advice in how to do life and what to prepare for in the future.

Edited December 26, 2013 by why me

[Stone holm]

I have never heard anyone ever praying over the bible...asking god if it were true and receiving an answer. But mormons have when they prayed over the book of mormon. That kind of experience can be a game changer for many mormons. However exmormons attempt to downplay it. When one receives a powerful confirmation or spiritual experience after praying about the book of mormon, what is one to do? Not to mention of experiencing the presence of the holy ghost when over a member's house. That has happened to me. I think that such experiences are typically mormon.

 

I have never seen the church leaders lead people astray when giving advice in how to do life and what to prepare for in the future.

Never heard anyone praying about the Bible? What a restricted life, and I thought I didn't socialize much.

[EllenMaksoud]

Given some of the comments being made with reference to the essays about the Priesthood ban and Polygamy, I think it is a fair question to ask whether we still believe The Lord directs His Church or is it just men doing the best they can? My personal belief is that He does, or I wouldn't still be a member. But some of the arguments and spins triggered by the recent essays, seem to be suggesting that He took a leave of absence with regards to certain important policies for decades at a time. So shouldn't we be taking serious what so many stand up and testify to every month? Shouldn't we be acknowledging that for better or worse, The Lord had a hand in instituting and keeping in place the ban, and in instituting polygamy?

I don't know about WE, but I believe that Heavenly Father specifically directs this church through Jesus the Christ, and if I did not, I would not be in it. There was a certain group of people who were deprived of blessings until Heavenly Father specifically said to stop. There is another group of people who are being specifically excluded right now, and I believe that when knowlege and wisdom increases it will end, though we may never know why.

[cinepro]

Given some of the comments being made with reference to the essays about the Priesthood ban and Polygamy, I think it is a fair question to ask whether we still believe The Lord directs His Church or is it just men doing the best they can? My personal belief is that He does, or I wouldn't still be a member. But some of the arguments and spins triggered by the recent essays, seem to be suggesting that He took a leave of absence with regards to certain important policies for decades at a time. So shouldn't we be taking serious what so many stand up and testify to every month? Shouldn't we be acknowledging that for better or worse, The Lord had a hand in instituting and keeping in place the ban, and in instituting polygamy?

 

I think the Church is like a person, in that God had to direct it very closely in its youth, but now that it's grown up, we're a little more independent.

[Stone holm]

I think the Church is like a person, in that God had to direct it very closely in its youth, but now that it's grown up, we're a little more independent.

 

Interesting analogy, but can't buy it.  I think the opposite seems to be true of religious organizations, they start out idealistic and righteous and then they start to emphasize adherence to orthodoxy and then they give up on adherence to orthodoxy and opt for blandness and eventually they mature into a social club of sorts.  Christ was not particularly nice towards the religious establishment in his day, an you only become part of the religious establishment as your organization matures and is accepted somewhat into the mainstream.

[Avatar4321]

I have never heard anyone ever praying over the bible...asking god if it were true and receiving an answer. But mormons have when they prayed over the book of mormon. That kind of experience can be a game changer for many mormons. However exmormons attempt to downplay it. When one receives a powerful confirmation or spiritual experience after praying about the book of mormon, what is one to do? Not to mention of experiencing the presence of the holy ghost when over a member's house. That has happened to me. I think that such experiences are typically mormon.

 

I have never seen the church leaders lead people astray when giving advice in how to do life and what to prepare for in the future.

 

I've prayed about the Bible. The Lord gave me a testimony of the Bible when the Holy Spirit testified of the other scriptures as well. Pretty cool. But yeah i know what you've said. I've had people tell me it's blasphemous to ask the Lord whether the Bible is true. How else are we supposed to know?

[Stone holm]

I've prayed about the Bible. The Lord gave me a testimony of the Bible when the Holy Spirit testified of the other scriptures as well. Pretty cool. But yeah i know what you've said. I've had people tell me it's blasphemous to ask the Lord whether the Bible is true. How else are we supposed to know?

During my conversion I prayed about the Bible more than the Book of Mormon which I accepted as true. My problem with the Bible were the writings of Paul which tend towards flowery verbosity which caused much of the contention Christianity experiences today IMO and because they are riddled with his personal opinions based on Roman culture. However, was baptised despite my reservations regarding The writings of Paul which I continue t o have today.

[Tacenda]

I have never heard anyone ever praying over the bible...asking god if it were true and receiving an answer. But mormons have when they prayed over the book of mormon. That kind of experience can be a game changer for many mormons. However exmormons attempt to downplay it. When one receives a powerful confirmation or spiritual experience after praying about the book of mormon, what is one to do? Not to mention of experiencing the presence of the holy ghost when over a member's house. That has happened to me. I think that such experiences are typically mormon.

 

I have never seen the church leaders lead people astray when giving advice in how to do life and what to prepare for in the future.

I think I'm going to read the BoM clear through, first time in my life, and see what happens when I pray to know if the book is not true.  Which has always confused me, why does it say this in Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost? 

 

Actually, I will ask if it's true.  But if I get "no" for an answer, some will say, "oh, you didn't pray hard enough".  Or, "you might have some sin that is blocking the spirit".  It's quite the set up.  No matter what, you fail.  If there is no answer then you keep trying for the rest of your life.  

[Duncan]

I think I'm going to read the BoM clear through, first time in my life, and see what happens when I pray to know if the book is not true.  Which has always confused me, why does it say this in Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost? 

 

Actually, I will ask if it's true.  But if I get "no" for an answer, some will say, "oh, you didn't pray hard enough".  Or, "you might have some sin that is blocking the spirit".  It's quite the set up.  No matter what, you fail.  If there is no answer then you keep trying for the rest of your life.  

 

 

I read that verse as saying make a decision about it taking in mind what God has done in the past and will do for you today (a brief synopsis of 1 Nephi 17, my favourite chapter-if God helped them, there, then then why won't he help me, here and now?) what do you think then ask God it that decision is the right one and he'll confirm it or not

[teddyaware]

I think I'm going to read the BoM clear through, first time in my life, and see what happens when I pray to know if the book is not true.  Which has always confused me, why does it say this in Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost? 

 

Actually, I will ask if it's true.  But if I get "no" for an answer, some will say, "oh, you didn't pray hard enough".  Or, "you might have some sin that is blocking the spirit".  It's quite the set up.  No matter what, you fail.  If there is no answer then you keep trying for the rest of your life.

If a person is serious about reading the Book of Mormon for the first time, in order to learn through the Holy Ghost whether or not it is true, that person should be aware they could largely be wasting their time unless he or she seriously heeds the following counsel:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. (Moroni 10)

 

I suppose reading the Book of Mormon may often be better than not reading it, but one thing is for sure: if it's read, pondered and prayed over without a sincere heart and without real intent it's very likely going to end up being a fruitless and empty endeavor.

Edited January 12, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

I wonder how those people who desperately wanted the blessings of the priesthood would feel to see that God can be excused for them not having the priesthood for over a century because it would have been "micromanagement"?

 

Come on people, if a whole race of people are excluded from the Church, for unknown reasons, for over a century, it is silly to try and pass that off as God avoiding micromanagement, and it is insulting to those people affected by the ban.

For the sake of accuracy, they weren't "excluded" from the Church.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Given some of the comments being made with reference to the essays about the Priesthood ban and Polygamy, I think it is a fair question to ask whether we still believe The Lord directs His Church or is it just men doing the best they can? My personal belief is that He does, or I wouldn't still be a member. But some of the arguments and spins triggered by the recent essays, seem to be suggesting that He took a leave of absence with regards to certain important policies for decades at a time. So shouldn't we be taking serious what so many stand up and testify to every month? Shouldn't we be acknowledging that for better or worse, The Lord had a hand in instituting and keeping in place the ban, and in instituting polygamy?

I,believe he does...does that mean our leadership is,perfect; no. We are all flawed, but God can still work,through us and lead us. I am not ashamed of our faith and make no apologies.

[Stone holm]

I,believe he does...does that mean our leadership is,perfect; no. We are all flawed, but God can still work,through us and lead us. I am not ashamed of our faith and make no apologies.

 

Neither am I -- the point was that God did in fact have a hand in the ban.

[Avatar4321]

I think I'm going to read the BoM clear through, first time in my life, and see what happens when I pray to know if the book is not true.  Which has always confused me, why does it say this in Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost? 

 

Actually, I will ask if it's true.  But if I get "no" for an answer, some will say, "oh, you didn't pray hard enough".  Or, "you might have some sin that is blocking the spirit".  It's quite the set up.  No matter what, you fail.  If there is no answer then you keep trying for the rest of your life.  

 

I think one of the keys is sincerely believing God will give you an answer one way or another somehow.

[Tacenda]

I think one of the keys is sincerely believing God will give you an answer one way or another somehow.

I will do that, thanks! It seems a little more doable now. Edited January 14, 2014 by Tacenda