Rick Warren On Homosexuality

[EllenMaksoud]

I am not an Ev, but I think at least some of what he said bears thinking about.

 

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2013/12/06/pmt-warren-on-homosexuality.cnn.html

[BCSpace]

My take:

 

Warren is absolutely right on tolerance.

Morgan doesn't seem to realize that homosexuals have always had the same right to marry the opposite sex that everyone else has.

Morgan obviously doesn't understand what the Bible actually says.  Hopefully Warren is just giving him a pass on that.

I disagree with the direction Warren takes on the issue about redefining the word marriage.  SSM is a question of welfare and we don't give (or shouldn't give) welfare to anyone just because they want a piece of the pie too.

That Warren fears the disapproval of God over the disapproval of Morgan or society and is willing to state it in such a public venue, thus putting his money where his mouth is, is admirable.  Hopefully when push comes to shove, he'll be able to stick to it.

[cinepro]

Morgan doesn't seem to realize that homosexuals have always had the same right to marry the opposite sex that everyone else has.

 

 

Just so I'm clear, when you say this you really mean it, and you're not making a satirical barb illustrating how stupid some arguments against same sex marriage are?

Edited December 8, 2013 by cinepro

[Rob Osborn]

If every good Christian would actively stand up against gay marriage we may yet have a chance to overcome this great scourge on the land. Kudos to Warren, may he have the power of God.

[BCSpace]

Just so I'm clear, when you say this you really mean it

 

Absolutely.  I really mean it.  The rest of your implicative argument on the scale of Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement merely rises to the level of Contradiction in a small way but mostly resides at the level of Ad Hominem.

[Tacenda]

If every good Christian would actively stand up against gay marriage we may yet have a chance to overcome this great scourge on the land. Kudos to Warren, may he have the power of God.

The scourge on the land is the weekly suicides of our gay youth. Directly stemming from the hatred they feel is directed at their even breathing. And their blood is on the hands that produced the feeling they have for themselves. Check it out, once weekly in the state of Utah a gay youth has taken their life, and 2 to 3 a week in attempted suicides. It's an epidemic. This is coming from someone who's 13 yr. old son has just came out to her, and she took it upon herself to research the gay community. Not sleeping for non stop learning of the situation. These suicides are not really publicized, maybe they should, and an outcry to stop it. The power of God is love.

[BCSpace]

If every good Christian would actively stand up against gay marriage we may yet have a chance to overcome this great scourge on the land. Kudos to Warren, may he have the power of God.

 

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/1977/10/the-foundations-of-righteousness?lang=eng

[california boy]

Absolutely.  I really mean it.  The rest of your implicative argument on the scale of Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement merely rises to the level of Contradiction in a small way but mostly resides at the level of Ad Hominem.

So what is your plan?  Will you be the first to offer your daughter or your sister, or your niece to a marriage with someone who is gay?  And just how do you think this will turn out?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

My take:

 

Warren is absolutely right on tolerance.

Morgan doesn't seem to realize that homosexuals have always had the same right to marry the opposite sex that everyone else has.

Morgan obviously doesn't understand what the Bible actually says.  Hopefully Warren is just giving him a pass on that.

I disagree with the direction Warren takes on the issue about redefining the word marriage.  SSM is a question of welfare and we don't give (or shouldn't give) welfare to anyone just because they want a piece of the pie too.

That Warren fears the disapproval of God over the disapproval of Morgan or society and is willing to state it in such a public venue, thus putting his money where his mouth is, is admirable.  Hopefully when push comes to shove, he'll be able to stick to it.

Rick Warren became a media darling when a guy escaped from jail and killed four or five fellow officers here in Atlanta where I was serving. The lady whom he broke in one and planned to kill also, used aspects of his book to talking him down, and thankfully saved her life and got him to surrender...since his media attention he has become more PC in views. Seems like a nice guy...but scripture is clear on this issue and our hearts break for the intolerant. But if we are God's Church and not man made, we must reflect his ideals, no matter how difficult for those within my own family ache for one of our own. Those who hate gay people, don't love any...as in between my unconditional love for one of my children. God help any who hate others...for in us would lie the greater sin.

[thesometimesaint]

What so ever you do unto the least of these... .

[Rob Osborn]

The scourge on the land is the weekly suicides of our gay youth. Directly stemming from the hatred they feel is directed at their even breathing. And their blood is on the hands that produced the feeling they have for themselves. Check it out, once weekly in the state of Utah a gay youth has taken their life, and 2 to 3 a week in attempted suicides. It's an epidemic. This is coming from someone who's 13 yr. old son has just came out to her, and she took it upon herself to research the gay community. Not sleeping for non stop learning of the situation. These suicides are not really publicized, maybe they should, and an outcry to stop it. The power of God is love.

It's sad that anyone commits suicide. I do not hate gay people just as I don't hate people who are addicted to drugs. But, I do have hatred towards the sinful nature of society. i thus look at sin with contempt. Allowing gay people to marry does not solve suicide. Sitting back and doing nothing to stop immorality does not stop suicide. The Church has always offered a helping hand to help the gay people in society. But, the Church stands firmly in acknowledging that homosexual behavior that is acted out is just as sinful as all other sexual immoral acts. I have contempt also for sins by people who cheat on their spouses.

Not sure what exactly the best answer should be to help gay people feel more welcome but at the same time still teach it is wrong behavior.

[telnetd]

Not sure what exactly the best answer should be to help gay people feel more welcome but at the same time still teach it is wrong behavior.

 

As they read the scriptures, the Holy Ghost will convict them of

sin and their behaviour will change. It's usually the same for

others engaged in theft, alcoholism, or adultery.  But if you preach

against it in a condemning manner, the person's heart will become

hardened. Another way is to emulate the way Jesus handled the 

adulteress.

 

Gail

[EllenMaksoud]

The scourge on the land is the weekly suicides of our gay youth. Directly stemming from the hatred they feel is directed at their even breathing. And their blood is on the hands that produced the feeling they have for themselves. Check it out, once weekly in the state of Utah a gay youth has taken their life, and 2 to 3 a week in attempted suicides. It's an epidemic. This is coming from someone who's 13 yr. old son has just came out to her, and she took it upon herself to research the gay community. Not sleeping for non stop learning of the situation. These suicides are not really publicized, maybe they should, and an outcry to stop it. The power of God is love.

That is the other side of the story, and of course Morgan was not astute enough to ask that question. Of course his time was limited. Of course, I do not have a good idea of what to do?

 

Just musing here, I am just wondering if we stop causing the suicides, but do not give Temple priveleges?  That hateful policies and lack of acceptance and compassion causes the suicides is really clear to me.

[EllenMaksoud]

It's sad that anyone commits suicide. I do not hate gay people just as I don't hate people who are addicted to drugs. But, I do have hatred towards the sinful nature of society. i thus look at sin with contempt. Allowing gay people to marry does not solve suicide. Sitting back and doing nothing to stop immorality does not stop suicide. The Church has always offered a helping hand to help the gay people in society. But, the Church stands firmly in acknowledging that homosexual behavior that is acted out is just as sinful as all other sexual immoral acts. I have contempt also for sins by people who cheat on their spouses.

Not sure what exactly the best answer should be to help gay people feel more welcome but at the same time still teach it is wrong behavior.

Right now I am so happy that I am not a church leader.  I think that soon, the next decade or two, we will know what causes this. We will either modify our theology, or find a cure.

[california boy]

It's sad that anyone commits suicide. I do not hate gay people just as I don't hate people who are addicted to drugs. But, I do have hatred towards the sinful nature of society. i thus look at sin with contempt. Allowing gay people to marry does not solve suicide. Sitting back and doing nothing to stop immorality does not stop suicide. The Church has always offered a helping hand to help the gay people in society. But, the Church stands firmly in acknowledging that homosexual behavior that is acted out is just as sinful as all other sexual immoral acts. I have contempt also for sins by people who cheat on their spouses.

Not sure what exactly the best answer should be to help gay people feel more welcome but at the same time still teach it is wrong behavior.

When a straight couple is living in sin, as a missionary, the first thing we did was to try and have them see the importance of marriage.  I attended many a baptism that started as a marriage by the bishop.  I remember one couple had been living together for over 20 years and had 5 children.  Marriage brought them closer to baptism and baptism brought them closer to the gospel.  

 

Unfortunately, at this time, the church leaders feel it is better for gay couples to not marry even if they have been in a committed relationship for 20 years.  Even if there are children involved.  Personally, I can't see how this policy brings them closer to baptism and closer to the gospel.  When the church starts to teach that such families should break up, cease living together, and become celibate, it all seems counter to the gospel.  The gospel places such emphasis on the family, this just feels so wrong.  The fact that this policy is not supported by scripture or revelation makes it feel even more wrong.  I personally can not understand how members and the church leaders can deal with such a policy.

[Calm]

 once weekly in the state of Utah a gay youth has taken their life, and 2 to 3 a week in attempted suicides.

CFR for these claims, please.

 

I will provide some other studies as a counterpoint....specifically active young men in the Church are 4 times less likely to attempt suicide as an inactive young man and 6 times less likely to attempt suicide as a nonmember young man.  If these stats continue to be accurate, one of the best things we can do for our young men of any sexual orientation is to encourage them to stay active in the LDS faith.

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Utah/Statistical_claims/Suicide_rate_among_Mormons

 

Critics also ignore that religion is generally a protective factor against suicide; religions provide both social support for people who are struggling, and religious beliefs which condemn suicide can be a disincentive to acting on suicidal thoughts.^[5] Studies of "high religious groups" (including LDS) have shown benefits for emotional maturity, self-esteem, and lower depression rates.^[6] Studies of countries with high levels of religious belief have shown a correlation with lower rates of suicide.^[7]

Some studies of LDS patients and non-LDS patients have shown no differences in the rate of suicidality based on being homemakers and working outside of the home.^[8] Suicide rates in LDS patients went down as their religious involvement went up.^[9] Inactive LDS males experience a suicide rate roughly four times that of active LDS males. Non-LDS males experience a suicide rate roughly six times that of active LDS males.^[10] This same research shows that U.S. white males (aged 20-34) had suicide rates two and one-half to seven times that of active LDS males of equal age. Active LDS males, aged 15–19, have an equal suicide rate to that of national rates.^[11]

 

[Tacenda]

CFR for these claims, please.

 

I will provide some other studies as a counterpoint....specifically active young men in the Church are 4 times less likely to attempt suicide as an inactive young man and 6 times less likely to attempt suicide as a nonmember young man.  If these stats continue to be accurate, one of the best things we can do for our young men of any sexual orientation is to encourage them to stay active in the LDS faith.

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Utah/Statistical_claims/Suicide_rate_among_Mormons

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=960&sid=24937434&title=utahs-suicide-belt-membership-youth-suicide-rate-troubling

 

From the article...

 

"State medical examiner Dr. Todd Grey deals with the end result of a suicide almost every day. And the numbers in Utah continue to rise, almost doubling in just the past seven years.

"In so many cases, it is the pointlessness of it that is so depressing," Grey said. "It's just sad."

 

I listened to a podcast at http://feministmormonhousewivespodcast.org/  (Episode 91: LDS Feminism and LGBT = United for Equality!),  late last night and distinctly heard the mother of a 13 yr. old gay son say it, after hours and hours of her research with little to no sleep, find these statistics.  Maybe a lot of these suicides are from gay youth, and also it might be older gays too that have taken their lives, therefore the high rate of one per week, we just don't know the full story unless we've done the research like this mother did.  I guess I've not honored the CFR as well as you'd like Cal, but this is the best I've got, this mom's words.  If you'd like to listen to the podcast and determine if I've done enough or not enough, to put this information out there, please let me know.  As I know you usually do, keep me on my toes.    

[Kenngo1969]

What here causes or contributes to suicide?

 

http://www.mormonsandgays.com

 

Thanks in advance!

[Calm]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=960&sid=24937434&title=utahs-suicide-belt-membership-youth-suicide-rate-troubling

 

From the article...

 

"State medical examiner Dr. Todd Grey deals with the end result of a suicide almost every day. And the numbers in Utah continue to rise, almost doubling in just the past seven years.

"In so many cases, it is the pointlessness of it that is so depressing," Grey said. "It's just sad."

 

I listened to a podcast at http://feministmormonhousewivespodcast.org/  (Episode 91: LDS Feminism and LGBT = United for Equality!),  late last night and distinctly heard the mother of a 13 yr. old gay son say it, after hours and hours of her research with little to no sleep, find these statistics.  Maybe a lot of these suicides are from gay youth, and also it might be older gays too that have taken their lives, therefore the high rate of one per week, we just don't know the full story unless we've done the research like this mother did.  I guess I've not honored the CFR as well as you'd like Cal, but this is the best I've got, this mom's words.  If you'd like to listen to the podcast and determine if I've done enough or not enough, to put this information out there, please let me know.  As I know you usually do, keep me on my toes.    

The first article doesn't even mention homosexuality that I could see.  Would you point out to me how this relates please.

 

And I am sad to say, doing research doesn't always mean doing research right.  Unless we can check what studies the mother is referring to, we can't tell if she has interpreted them correctly.  Do you remember if she talks about the studies themselves or not?

[Tacenda]

The first article doesn't even mention homosexuality that I could see. Would you point out to me how this relates please.

And I am sad to say, doing research doesn't always mean doing research right. Unless we can check what studies the mother is referring to, we can't tell if she has interpreted them correctly. Do you remember if she talks about the studies themselves or not?

I'll have to listen again. I assumed she had insider information somehow as most obits leave out that they are gay or committed suicide. I trust that this is so.

[Rob Osborn]

When a straight couple is living in sin, as a missionary, the first thing we did was to try and have them see the importance of marriage.  I attended many a baptism that started as a marriage by the bishop.  I remember one couple had been living together for over 20 years and had 5 children.  Marriage brought them closer to baptism and baptism brought them closer to the gospel.  

 

Unfortunately, at this time, the church leaders feel it is better for gay couples to not marry even if they have been in a committed relationship for 20 years.  Even if there are children involved.  Personally, I can't see how this policy brings them closer to baptism and closer to the gospel.  When the church starts to teach that such families should break up, cease living together, and become celibate, it all seems counter to the gospel.  The gospel places such emphasis on the family, this just feels so wrong.  The fact that this policy is not supported by scripture or revelation makes it feel even more wrong.  I personally can not understand how members and the church leaders can deal with such a policy.

Herein lies the problem though. A gay couple with children is not a "family". The Church nor God will ever recognize a gay couple as a "family". Many recent studies have shown that a gay couple raising children creates more problems than the traditional family. he traditional family is the only thing that will keep society together- it is the very fabric of freedom and a free society. I'm not sorry to anyone for holding this view. I was taught what the traditional family was, now as a father and teacher I teach my family and those in my stewardship about the traditional family. Hopefully they grow up and keep moral principle in place and do the same. I will defend the family at all cost. Anything that seeks to destroy the family unit I will defend with my life if needed. This philosophy of "the new normal" (Thanks for nothin Hollywood) is a gross abomination and am sad to see so many Americans embrace such blasphemy.

[california boy]

Herein lies the problem though. A gay couple with children is not a "family". The Church nor God will ever recognize a gay couple as a "family". Many recent studies have shown that a gay couple raising children creates more problems than the traditional family. he traditional family is the only thing that will keep society together- it is the very fabric of freedom and a free society. I'm not sorry to anyone for holding this view. I was taught what the traditional family was, now as a father and teacher I teach my family and those in my stewardship about the traditional family. Hopefully they grow up and keep moral principle in place and do the same. I will defend the family at all cost. Anything that seeks to destroy the family unit I will defend with my life if needed. This philosophy of "the new normal" (Thanks for nothin Hollywood) is a gross abomination and am sad to see so many Americans embrace such blasphemy.

I'm speechless.  I had no idea your disregard for gay people went this far.

[Rob Osborn]

I'm speechless.  I had no idea your disregard for gay people went this far.

Very probable that I could meet up with you, grab lunch and have a good conversation and part friends. I have a cousin who is gay and I get along great with him, always have. But I do stand where I do on the issue and I'm not budging any. When we are talking about drastically changing society to come to agreement with redefining marriage, morality, etc, I have big issues with that and so does the Church. Here is what the church has to say-

"The Church’s approach to this issue stands apart from society in many ways. And that’s alright. Reasonable people can and do differ. From a public relations perspective it would be easier for the Church to simply accept homosexual behavior. That we cannot do, for God’s law is not ours to change. There is no change in the Church’s position of what is morally right."

[Tacenda]

Very probable that I could meet up with you, grab lunch and have a good conversation and part friends. I have a cousin who is gay and I get along great with him, always have. But I do stand where I do on the issue and I'm not budging any. When we are talking about drastically changing society to come to agreement with redefining marriage, morality, etc, I have big issues with that and so does the Church. Here is what the church has to say-

"The Church’s approach to this issue stands apart from society in many ways. And that’s alright. Reasonable people can and do differ. From a public relations perspective it would be easier for the Church to simply accept homosexual behavior. That we cannot do, for God’s law is not ours to change. There is no change in the Church’s position of what is morally right."

Probably why some have resigned from the church.

I still have issue with the idea that gay marriage is so wrong but polygamy/polyandry is ok.

[Rob Osborn]

Probably why some have resigned from the church.

I still have issue with the idea that gay marriage is so wrong but polygamy/polyandry is ok.

Im not a big fan of polygamy and don't think it is an eternal principle. I could be wrong but I just don't see how one could be "one" with multiple partners.