What Should We Make Of Columbus, The Pilgrims And The Puritans

[Stone holm]

So given it is just a couple days before Thanksgiving, what should we make of people like Columbus or the Pilgrims and the Puritans who play such an important role in the American mythology.  Was Columbus a hero?  I had four ancestors who came over on the Mayflower for whom I am grateful, but I cringe a bit as to how they behaved with respect to the Native Americans.  As far as I know, I have no Native American blood in my veins -- although my deceased first wife may have had a seven foot Native American in her lineage.  I realize the Pilgrims were not quite as obnoxious as the Puritans, but they didn't play completely nice with the Native Americans either.  I remember Elder Lee saying at a Stake Conference that we shouldn't feel bad about what our ancestors did to his people as we were just fulfilling prophecy.  I don't subscribe to the belief that there was a Native American holoacaust like there was a Jewish and Gypsy and Gay holoacaust in Europe in the mid Twentieth Century, but we Europeans were not exactly subtle either.  So how should a Mormon feel about this part of American history, since it is also part of our religious history?

[pogi]

As with almost all historical events and people, my feelings are mixed.  It was a story of amazingly great accomplishment tinged with sore tragedy.  I see evidence of both divine and adversarial intervention.

Edited November 26, 2013 by pogi

[sweetpotatoh]

Let's see here. When one group treats another badly, it sucks. The puritans were trying to preserve their way of life. The natives were trying to adapt to the newcomers and keep their way of life. Two cultures clashed and the puritans "won".

There was tragedy and atrocities, but that happens when cultures clash. History is replete with examples.

As a Mormon I feel no guilt whatsoever about America and Columbus. I don't think he was a hero I do think he was supposed to find the America's because God was using him as an instrument to do so.

Pass the turkey and potatoes.

Edited November 26, 2013 by sweetpotatoh

[Ahab]

Some were bad and some were good, in varying degrees, whether they were pilgrims or Puritans or Native Americans, and all of them should have lived together in peace while trying to share all that they had.

 

Life sucks, sometimes.  What else can we say?  Even if they all got along the sicknesses would have still killed a lot of them.

 

Sometimes when learning about history we can learn what we should not to do to someone else.

[AndyDnom]

Let's see here. When one group treats another badly, it sucks. The puritans were trying to preserve their way of life. The natives were trying to adapt to the newcomers and keep their way of life. Two cultures clashed and the puritans "won".

There was tragedy and atrocities, but that happens when cultures clash. History is replete with examples.

As a Mormon I feel no guilt whatsoever about America and Columbus. I don't think he was a hero I do think he was supposed to find the America's because God was using him as an instrument to do so.

Pass the turkey and potatoes.

 

If God is all powerful, why would he use columbus to discover america and let him do so many atrocities? Why have Columbus discover america at all, if the lamanites were already there? Couldn't he just raise up his one true church among the already existing lamanites?

[ERayR]

So given it is just a couple days before Thanksgiving, what should we make of people like Columbus or the Pilgrims and the Puritans who play such an important role in the American mythology.  Was Columbus a hero?  I had four ancestors who came over on the Mayflower for whom I am grateful, but I cringe a bit as to how they behaved with respect to the Native Americans.  As far as I know, I have no Native American blood in my veins -- although my deceased first wife may have had a seven foot Native American in her lineage.  I realize the Pilgrims were not quite as obnoxious as the Puritans, but they didn't play completely nice with the Native Americans either.  I remember Elder Lee saying at a Stake Conference that we shouldn't feel bad about what our ancestors did to his people as we were just fulfilling prophecy.  I don't subscribe to the belief that there was a Native American holoacaust like there was a Jewish and Gypsy and Gay holoacaust in Europe in the mid Twentieth Century, but we Europeans were not exactly subtle either.  So how should a Mormon feel about this part of American history, since it is also part of our religious history?

 

Why should you feel anything about it?  You had absolutely nothing to do with anything that happened.  I refuse to be held accountable for (/Adam's)transgressions.

[ERayR]

If God is all powerful, why would he use columbus to discover america and let him do so many atrocities? Why have Columbus discover america at all, if the lamanites were already there? Couldn't he just raise up his one true church among the already existing lamanites?

 

I also try to never answer for what God does or allows to happen.  I just don't second guess his decisions.

[Ahab]

If God is all powerful, why would he use columbus to discover america and let him do so many atrocities? Why have Columbus discover america at all, if the lamanites were already there? Couldn't he just raise up his one true church among the already existing lamanites?

You need to learn more about what we refer to as freedom of choice. 

 

God allows us to make our own decisions with a judgment to follow at the appointed time.

 

You might as well ask why God allows you to do the bad things that you do.

[cinepro]

What, then, do we know of the real Columbus? What were his motives in pursuing his world-changing enterprise? Perhaps the greatest motivating feature of his life was his faith. His writings and the records kept by his contemporaries indicate that Columbus had unshakable faith that he was an instrument in God’s hands.

And, indeed, the Book of Mormon affirms that he was. In vision, Nephi “looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it … wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.” (1 Ne. 13:12.)

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

The conclusion of Delno West’s excellent introduction to the English translation of the Book of Prophecies clearly summarizes the Admiral’s character and motives: “Christopher Columbus looked upon himself as a man of destiny who had been given a charismatic gift to understand Scripture, navigation, maps, winds, tides, astronomy, cosmography, mathematics and related sciences. His understanding of his mission, or enterprise, was drawn from the Bible or proved by the Bible, and he knew that he was opening up new lands rich with gold and other valuables. He believed himself a chosen person working for the good of all Christendom in opening up the rest of the world to the gospel message. He knew that he would be misunderstood and maligned, but he accepted that as the lot of a divinely chosen person.” 19

 

In our day the maligning has increased in intensity, but our awareness of what Columbus accomplished under God’s direction ought to remind us of our own indebtedness and responsibilities as benefactors of his fortitude. His chief concern, as ours should be, was not what people would think of him, but what God would think of him.

 

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/10/columbus-and-the-hand-of-god

 

This one is especially interesting...

 

[Orson Hyde] gave a talk in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on July 4, 1854. That’s only seven years after they came into the valley. (Now, it’s not the Tabernacle we know now, but the one they originally built.) That talk was a patriotic talk about America. He called Moroni the “guardian angel of America.” He said, “That same angel of God that appeared to Joseph Smith presides over the destiny of the United States of America.” Elder Hyde said that he [Moroni] was in the camp with George Washington. He [Moroni] helped George Washington when he had trouble. He said that same angel was with Christopher Columbus and gave him deep impressions and dreams and visions respecting the new world. He said that same angel was with Columbus on the stormy deep. He guided his frail vessel to the desired haven, and he calmed the troubled elements.

 

(The Angel Moroni by Elder Glen L. Rudd. Brigham Young University-Idaho Devotional, March 11, 2003 )

[Sevenbak]

Columbus was one of only 2 men whom Wilford Woodruff ordained a Hight Priest posthumously, after having done all the work for all of the Founding Fathers and others in the St. George Temple. So yes, I do think the Lord, or at least His prophet, held a high regard for Columbus.

[Stone holm]

Columbus was one of only 2 men whom Wilford Woodruff ordained a Hight Priest posthumously, after having done all the work for all of the Founding Fathers and others in the St. George Temple. So yes, I do think the Lord, or at least His prophet, held a high regard for Columbus.

I think it would be wrong to judge Columbus by today's standards. I also tend not to judge the Pilgrims either. The Puritans I have a lot of mixed emotions about. By the 19th Century we should have known better and behaved better.

[thesometimesaint]

Columbus was one of only 2 men whom Wilford Woodruff ordained a Hight Priest posthumously, after having done all the work for all of the Founding Fathers and others in the St. George Temple. So yes, I do think the Lord, or at least His prophet, held a high regard for Columbus.

 

So old Chris was beyond the power of the Atonement?

[thesometimesaint]

This one is especially interesting...

 

Except that Cristoforo Colombo thought he'd landed in India.

[rameumptom]

I think the problem only lies in us judging those of the past with a different culture by our modern standards.  It is somewhat hypocritical for us to do, given the many terrible things we do today.  Our immorality, for instance, denies tens of millions of children the chance to be born into a traditional family with both parents available.  Our immorality leads to millions of abortions, simply because people don't want to have to deal with a pregnancy.  Our society imprisons non-violent people all the time, turning them into worse characters than they were before.

 

We go into wars all the time against those that threaten our territory, our peace, or our prideful honor.  We fight others over cultural clashes, having killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims over the past decade alone.

 

And we think we're more enlightened, simply because we don't clash with Native Americans today?

 

I know some Native American friends, who while sad that so many Native Americans suffered in the past, they are given such a great living today thanks to European influence on the Americas.  Hundreds of millions of Native Americans have better lives today in the Americas, due to western thought, technology, etc., than they ever had before.

[Ron Beron]

It is difficult to excuse away the atrocities committed by Columbus and subsequent Conquistadors, but it was part and parcel of their world as similar things occurred in the time of the ancient prophets. 

The early Pilgrims actually got along quite well with the natives mainly because of the largesse of the tribes who saw their introduction to be a means of using the settlers as a defense against other Indian tribes.  It was later that the two peoples clashed.  Not because of the stealing of their lands, but because of other reasons.  Their lands were actually sold to the Puritan settlers.

[rodheadlee]

Hero, definitely a hero. The largest vessel was 62 feet. I sail a 43 footer with modern electronics and charting.  Sailing off into the unknown in small vessels that could hardly be called ships takes a lot of nerve. I respect all the sailors of yesterday. I'm late for work or I would really get into it.

[Stone holm]

It is difficult to excuse away the atrocities committed by Columbus and subsequent Conquistadors, but it was part and parcel of their world as similar things occurred in the time of the ancient prophets. 

The early Pilgrims actually got along quite well with the natives mainly because of the largesse of the tribes who saw their introduction to be a means of using the settlers as a defense against other Indian tribes.  It was later that the two peoples clashed.  Not because of the stealing of their lands, but because of other reasons.  Their lands were actually sold to the Puritan settlers.

 

We need, I believe, to draw a certain distinction between the relatively peaceful separatist Pilgrims, and the later Puritans associated with the Massachusetts Bay Company that later overwhelmed and absorbed the Pilgrim settlements.  The early Pilgrims were just trying to survive in an environment that they were totally unprepared for.  Two of my four Pilgrim ancestors died the first winter -- the death rate amongst the Pilgrims was awful.  In addition, although they ran more or less a theocracy within their own settlement, the Pilgrims were not trying to impose their religions on others -- the Puritans, however, not only were running a theocracy, but were basically bullies and ultimately wound up crushing people under stones and burning people at the stake.

[thesometimesaint]

The Pilgrims introduced diseases unknown to the local Indians wiping out large numbers. They were also know to raid Indian villages stealing stores of food and other necessities.

[ERayR]

The Pilgrims introduced diseases unknown to the local Indians wiping out large numbers. They were also know to raid Indian villages stealing stores of food and other necessities.

 

Do you think the introduction of diseases was intentional?  I don't think they had the knowledge available to wage germ warfare.

Edited November 27, 2013 by ERayR

[teddyaware]

So given it is just a couple days before Thanksgiving, what should we make of people like Columbus or the Pilgrims and the Puritans who play such an important role in the American mythology.  Was Columbus a hero?  I had four ancestors who came over on the Mayflower for whom I am grateful, but I cringe a bit as to how they behaved with respect to the Native Americans.  As far as I know, I have no Native American blood in my veins -- although my deceased first wife may have had a seven foot Native American in her lineage.  I realize the Pilgrims were not quite as obnoxious as the Puritans, but they didn't play completely nice with the Native Americans either.  I remember Elder Lee saying at a Stake Conference that we shouldn't feel bad about what our ancestors did to his people as we were just fulfilling prophecy.  I don't subscribe to the belief that there was a Native American holoacaust like there was a Jewish and Gypsy and Gay holoacaust in Europe in the mid Twentieth Century, but we Europeans were not exactly subtle either.  So how should a Mormon feel about this part of American history, since it is also part of our religious history?

Thought it might be interesting for us to see what the Lord has to say the subject at hand:

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed ofmy brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the bland of promise; and I

beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the

Gentiles and were smitten.

15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful,like unto my people before they were slain.

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did

humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them. (1 Nephi 13)

Please note that the Spirit of the Lord was upon the Gentiles (verse 14), even after

having smitten and scattered the native Americans.

Do I expect the word of the Lord will have any impact on this discussion? of course

not.

Edited November 27, 2013 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

Delete

Edited November 27, 2013 by teddyaware

[Calm]

Do you think the introduction of diseases was intentional?  I don't think they had the knowledge available to wage germ warfare.

My memory said they knew enough that they would burn everything that came in contact with certain diseases and that they gave clothing that had been in contact with such diseases to those they knew were susceptible.  I will try and find some references, it was a Canadian history book I read it in so I am thinking it happened later on, not with Colombus' parties.

 

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html

 

It is possible this is just folklore:

 

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/HPS/MayorSmallpox.pdf

Edited November 27, 2013 by calmoriah

[pogi]

Do I expect the word of the Lord will have any impact on this discussion? of course

not.

 

Please expound, how does it impact your feelings about what happened to the Native Americans?  Does it cause you to be past-feeling towards the many atrocities, or do you consider them heroic victories?  

 

The first problem that you run into is that you cannot convince me that the majority of the Native Americans were Lamanites, which this scripture is in reference to.   Second, you cannot convince me that all gentiles had the Spirit of the Lord upon them.  If you are any student of history, you would not be so quick to justify such atrocities as were committed towards the Native Americans.  I am not saying that all Native Americans were completely innocent either, but don't you think history is a little more nuanced than you want it to be?

[sweetpotatoh]

If God is all powerful, why would he use columbus to discover america and let him do so many atrocities? Why have Columbus discover america at all, if the lamanites were already there? Couldn't he just raise up his one true church among the already existing lamanites?

Your questions are logical fallacies, either or.

[teddyaware]

Please expound, how does it impact your feelings about what happened to the Native Americans?  Does it cause you to be past-feeling towards the many atrocities, or do you consider them heroic victories?  

 

The first problem that you run into is that you cannot convince me that the majority of the Native Americans were Lamanites, which this scripture is in reference to.   Second, you cannot convince me that all gentiles had the Spirit of the Lord upon them.  If you are any student of history, you would not be so quick to justify such atrocities as were committed towards the Native Americans.  I am not saying that all Native Americans were completely innocent either, but don't you think history is a little more nuanced than you want it to be?

So you make my point.