What Should We Make Of Columbus, The Pilgrims And The Puritans

[Ron Beron]

We need, I believe, to draw a certain distinction between the relatively peaceful separatist Pilgrims, and the later Puritans associated with the Massachusetts Bay Company that later overwhelmed and absorbed the Pilgrim settlements.  The early Pilgrims were just trying to survive in an environment that they were totally unprepared for.  Two of my four Pilgrim ancestors died the first winter -- the death rate amongst the Pilgrims was awful.  In addition, although they ran more or less a theocracy within their own settlement, the Pilgrims were not trying to impose their religions on others -- the Puritans, however, not only were running a theocracy, but were basically bullies and ultimately wound up crushing people under stones and burning people at the stake.

 

We need, I believe, to draw a certain distinction between the relatively peaceful separatist Pilgrims, and the later Puritans associated with the Massachusetts Bay Company that later overwhelmed and absorbed the Pilgrim settlements.  The early Pilgrims were just trying to survive in an environment that they were totally unprepared for.  Two of my four Pilgrim ancestors died the first winter -- the death rate amongst the Pilgrims was awful.  In addition, although they ran more or less a theocracy within their own settlement, the Pilgrims were not trying to impose their religions on others -- the Puritans, however, not only were running a theocracy, but were basically bullies and ultimately wound up crushing people under stones and burning people at the stake.

The Pilgrims had their own little theocracy running as well, but you are right about the Puritans.  They were vicious.

[Ron Beron]

The Pilgrims introduced diseases unknown to the local Indians wiping out large numbers. They were also know to raid Indian villages stealing stores of food and other necessities.

Not hardly...the village the Pilgrims found were already decimated by earlier contact with French fishermen.  Squanto was part of this village having survived because he was taken as a slave back to England where he escaped just to return back to his destroyed village and the newcomer Pilgrims.  I found no evidence of them stealing any foods, but they did raid the graves of the natives for any food left in there.

[Ron Beron]

My memory said they knew enough that they would burn everything that came in contact with certain diseases and that they gave clothing that had been in contact with such diseases to those they knew were susceptible.  I will try and find some references, it was a Canadian history book I read it in so I am thinking it happened later on, not with Colombus' parties.

 

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html

 

It is possible this is just folklore:

 

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/HPS/MayorSmallpox.pdf

I cannot imagine they had any idea of the mechanics of transformation.  They just knew when there was illness.

[Sevenbak]

So old Chris was beyond the power of the Atonement?

I'm not sure what you're saying...  Is that what you think I meant?

[Sevenbak]

The Pilgrims introduced diseases unknown to the local Indians wiping out large numbers. They were also know to raid Indian villages stealing stores of food and other necessities.

Yes, I think description in the BoM describing them as being scourged and scattered by said same gentiles is pretty accurate.

[brightpath]

According to the BofM the Gentiles coming to America fulfilled prophecy. The Lamanites rejected the fullness of the gospel so The Lord guided and allowed the Gentiles to come to America. He also allowed them to kill and scatter the Lamanites. So Elder Lee was right in saying that. The Lord also promised the Lamanites that they would rise up in the last days and become a mighty people and build the New Jerusalem.

Edited November 28, 2013 by brightpath

[Stone holm]

The Pilgrims had their own little theocracy running as well, but you are right about the Puritans.  They were vicious.

True the Pilgrims were theocratic, but they were also separatists. The Amish have a lot of theocratic tendencies, but they too are separatists. The Puritans, however, were theocratic, but not separatists. They didn't come here to separate themselves from the World, but rather to dominate it. It's when you combine theocracy with the will to dominate your neighbors that things start going South. In that sense ironically theocracies and communism are similar. Small pockets of communists are fairly benign, it's only when they take up arms and go on the march that they become a problem. Fundamentalist communities aren't a problem, it's when they go political and try to force their beliefs on their neighbors that they become a problem.

[sunstoned]

According to the BofM the Gentiles coming to America fulfilled prophecy. The Lamanites rejected the fullness of the gospel so The Lord guided and allowed the Gentiles to come to America. He also allowed them to kill and scatter the Lamanites. So Elder Lee was right in saying that. The Lord also promised the Lamanites that they would rise up in the last days and become a mighty people and build the New Jerusalem.

 

Help me out here, of all the native americans that were killed and scattered, how many were the Lamanites?

[thesometimesaint]

Do you think the introduction of diseases was intentional?  I don't think they had the knowledge available to wage germ warfare.

 

No they didn't knowingly introduce disease. The Germ Theory of disease had to wait several generations.

[Stone holm]

No they didn't knowingly introduce disease. The Germ Theory of disease had to wait several generations.

Well yes and no, a lot of the indigenous population did die without actually coming in contact with the Europeans, and some were accidentally exposed, but the early European conquerors did know you could kill off unwanted natives by giving them blankets and such contaminated by smallpox.

[Alan]

Getting back to Columbus, I understood he didn't discover America at all. Is it not the case that he actually discovered the West Indies?

A Mormon site I once looked at identified a different individual with the character forseen by Nephi.

[thesometimesaint]

He didn't discover anything. What he did was heroic, and even brave. However people already were living in the Americas long before old Chris was born. What he did do is open the New World to European exploitation.

[Calm]

Getting back to Columbus, I understood he didn't discover America at all. Is it not the case that he actually discovered the West Indies?

A Mormon site I once looked at identified a different individual with the character forseen by Nephi.

Probably John Cabot.

[halconero]

Something to consider is that man upon whom the Spirit works is not mentioned as discovering the Americas. It is inferred that the Spirit motivated him to journey to the Lamanite descendants, but nothing beyond that.

 

Other options to consider:

 

1) Amerigo Vespucci - Rejected Columbus' conjecture that he discovered eastern Asia, and suggested instead that it was a "New World" and a set of continent that they had found. Described as deeply spiritual, an arguably better sailor and mathematician than Columbus, and conspicuously innocent of murder and slavery. He felt inspired to embark on a voyage to confirm Columbus' discoveries. The Americas are named after him.

 

2) Bartolomé de las Casas - First bishop of Chiapas, one of the first settlers in the Americas, and the first "Protector of the Indians." A former slave owner, he had a change of heart and became gradually more and more anti-slavery. Argued that Indians had souls and were due the protection given to other subjects of the Spanish king. Helped publish new laws (later repealed) protecting the Indians.

 

3) Antonio de Montesinos - Dominican anti-slavery preacher. Notably, he greatly angered Diego Columbus (Chris' son) by his condemnation of the conquistadors.

 

4) So many others, incuding missionaries, explorers, soldiers, governors, etc.

 

5) Perhaps it is representative of the Age of Discovery. Sort of like a "this is the first of many" symbol.

 

If we free ourselves from the idea that this passage is not about the discovery, but instead the settling, exploration and proselytizing of the Americas, we have a lot more options.

[ERayR]

My memory said they knew enough that they would burn everything that came in contact with certain diseases and that they gave clothing that had been in contact with such diseases to those they knew were susceptible.  I will try and find some references, it was a Canadian history book I read it in so I am thinking it happened later on, not with Colombus' parties.

 

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html

 

It is possible this is just folklore:

 

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/HPS/MayorSmallpox.pdf

 

Thanks for the info.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

So given it is just a couple days before Thanksgiving, what should we make of people like Columbus or the Pilgrims and the Puritans who play such an important role in the American mythology.  Was Columbus a hero?  I had four ancestors who came over on the Mayflower for whom I am grateful, but I cringe a bit as to how they behaved with respect to the Native Americans.  As far as I know, I have no Native American blood in my veins -- although my deceased first wife may have had a seven foot Native American in her lineage.  I realize the Pilgrims were not quite as obnoxious as the Puritans, but they didn't play completely nice with the Native Americans either.  I remember Elder Lee saying at a Stake Conference that we shouldn't feel bad about what our ancestors did to his people as we were just fulfilling prophecy.  I don't subscribe to the belief that there was a Native American holoacaust like there was a Jewish and Gypsy and Gay holoacaust in Europe in the mid Twentieth Century, but we Europeans were not exactly subtle either.  So how should a Mormon feel about this part of American history, since it is also part of our religious history?

All were people of vision and courage for looking for another world...this is not undone for later sins, nor does it excuse these sins. All people are complicated and do good and evil. Hopefully more good than evil; the important thing is not to repeat past evils.

[Stone holm]

All were people of vision and courage for looking for another world...this is not undone for later sins, nor does it excuse these sins. All people are complicated and do good and evil. Hopefully more good than evil; the important thing is not to repeat past evils.

Yeah, they all got a lot worse before they got better..have occasionally wondered what cultural insights we could have gleaned before crushing them

[Tiki]

1 Nephi 13:13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

I thought the Pilgrims came to America for religious freedom not to kill "Indians."

I think it's ridiculous to blame "our ancestors" for killing Native Americans. As if all were involved with it.

Shows lack of basic knowledge of American history.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Yeah, they all got a lot worse before they got better..have occasionally wondered what cultural insights we could have gleaned before crushing them

Same could be said had they shared everything they learned and not made so much war against one another. Native Americans in the East were more peaceful and as a result made greater strides in most areas. Especially the Cherokee, until Georgia and Tennessee sent them out West. When the vote passed to send them out West, Davy Crockett who was serving in the Tennessee congress is rumored to have stood up after the vote and said, "To hell with Tennessee, I am going to Texas", which lead to his death at the Alamo.

[Stone holm]

Same could be said had they shared everything they learned and not made so much war against one another. Native Americans in the East were more peaceful and as a result made greater strides in most areas. Especially the Cherokee, until Georgia and Tennessee sent them out West. When the vote passed to send them out West, Davy Crockett who was serving in the Tennessee congress is rumored to have stood up after the vote and said, "To hell with Tennessee, I am going to Texas", which lead to his death at the Alamo.

The Cherokee are a good example of what happened when the Amerindians tried to adopt White Man ways and adapt.

[thesometimesaint]

Well yes and no, a lot of the indigenous population did die without actually coming in contact with the Europeans, and some were accidentally exposed, but the early European conquerors did know you could kill off unwanted natives by giving them blankets and such contaminated by smallpox.

http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/smallpox.html

[thesometimesaint]

Same could be said had they shared everything they learned and not made so much war against one another. Native Americans in the East were more peaceful and as a result made greater strides in most areas. Especially the Cherokee, until Georgia and Tennessee sent them out West. When the vote passed to send them out West, Davy Crockett who was serving in the Tennessee congress is rumored to have stood up after the vote and said, "To hell with Tennessee, I am going to Texas", which lead to his death at the Alamo.

The Mohawk had a bad reputation before the white man came.

[pogi]

So you make my point.

 

Your point is misguided.  You said:

 

Do I expect the word of the Lord will have any impact on this discussion? of course

not.

 

The word of the Lord does have great impact, your interpretation on the other hand...

 

I personally find your understanding of 1 Nephi 13 to be a gross misunderstanding of scripture by overgeneralizing all Native Americans as Lamanites, and by justifying all gentiles in their rapes, murders, and broken covenants toward the Native Americans.  To assume that such heinous acts can be performed in, and guided by the Spirit is just wrong!

 

Where the scripture says, " And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles"  I take that to mean collectively and not so much individually.  Kind of like the period of enlightenment. 

 

Yes, the spirit led the gentiles to the promised land, and yes the prophesy about the Lamanites was fulfilled.  However, the fulfilling of prophecy by a person or people does not necessarily justify their actions in fulfilling the prophecy.  Satan will ultimately fulfill prophecy, will he not?  There are probably a ton of other examples. 

Edited November 29, 2013 by pogi

[Stone holm]

The Mohawk had a bad reputation before the white man came.

So did the Sioux, point being?

[ERayR]

So did the Sioux, point being?

 

When two very different cultures collide bad things happen.