Is Mormon Culture Cult-Ish?

[Palerider]

In view of the contemporary definition of a cult I would say the LDS church doesn't qualify. BUT I do see some of the churches' policies and doctrines as "cultish" or manipulative.

 

I've often thought the church is to "cult" what accupressure is to accupuncture. Not quite as invasive, coercive or manipulative but all the possibilities are there. I do think Joseph used doctrine and his position to do some heavy arm twisting when it came to plural marriage.

 

If and when, the Christian church works as it should, Isn't the change in man expected to be from the inside out through the workings of the Spirit within us?

 

Why then does it matter what color shirt I wear when I administer in the priesthood?

 

Does a cult strive for uniformity?  Does the Lord strive for unity?

 

When we desire unity with the Lord, we naturally desire brotherhood with the rest of His children.

 

When we desire uniformity with the organization we avoid "pain" by engaging in group-think..........

Edited November 26, 2013 by Palerider

[pmccombs1]

If nothing else, it's an interesting exercise in asking yourself how independent minded you are, even in the church context.

 

It does this by manipulating responses. Knowing that the survey is intended to assess "bad" cult behavior, and seeing in each question a heading or description that indicates some connection between a high numeric answer and institutional pathology, those who are faithful to (or enemies of) the institution will tend to score based on what the desired outcome is.

 

A legitimate research study would not have these bias triggers.

Edited November 26, 2013 by pmccombs1

[danielwoods]

Scored 10%.    I go to church in a tee shirt every sunday. God looks at the heart. 

[canard78]

It does this by manipulating responses. Knowing that the survey is intended to assess "bad" cult behavior, and seeing in each question a heading or description that indicates some connection between a high numeric answer and institutional pathology, those who are faithful to (or enemies of) the institution will tend to score based on what the desired outcome is.

 

A legitimate research study would not have these bias triggers.

 

I agree that it's a poor research tool. Was just interested in the range of scores we'd get.

[Calm]

 

 

A lot of my answers were influenced by my having read about "cults" like the Jim Jones/ Peoples Temple movement, Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, Scientology, and John-Roger/MSIA.  Once you see how a real cult works, it's hard to classify anything the LDS Church does as being anything close to what goes on in those groups.  

Plus 1 for that...

 

I don't particularly see the value of such a test that creates such a broad application of cult that it could apply to pretty much any tight knit organization nor does it distinguish between aspects that can do good and aspects that can be bad for individuals (IIRC, it has been years since I studied his work and I can't refresh right now).

Edited November 26, 2013 by calmoriah

[ChristKnight]

I got 56%.  

 

A lot of my answers were influenced by my having read about "cults" like the Jim Jones/ Peoples Temple movement, Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, Scientology, and John-Roger/MSIA.  Once you see how a real cult works, it's hard to classify anything the LDS Church does as being anything close to what goes on in those groups.  

 

That being said, there were some questions that still did apply quite clearly to things the LDS Church does.  But these things were generally applicable to just about any religion.

 

I completely agree.

[BlueDreams]

 

I watched that.  So what does that do to the youth that want tattoos, "look, she gets all this adoration (her FB following comes to mind), what's wrong with me doing it".  It's the obedience thing.  Just like drinking coffee.  We don't know for sure if it's not any worse than drinking soda with caffeine but we don't drink it because it's a matter of being obedient.

 

Just got off the phone with my son's seminary teacher because my son walked out of class with a few other students when a girl in their class did, because the teacher spoke about things that are anti Christ and what the world tries to do to make you think somethings ok.  And apparently he brought up coffee, and the obedience thing, well the girl that got up and walked out, drank coffee apparently and was upset.  These rules seem a little over the top.  Why aren't we obedient more to loving God and our neighbor as ourselves?  .......           

 

Tacenda, 

 

I suggest that what you responded to me may be connected to why you got a high score of 77% on the other more so than anything else....note that other LDS have also taken it and our scores have had quite a range (mine was 28%). You mentioned your son in seminary and the seminary teacher spouting off crazy things about coffee. I had a seminary teacher who spouted some crazy stuff about women's place and the evil teachings of evolution. It made me seethe. But I simply took it as his stupid opinion that I discarded as flawed and kept going to seminary for the many good things I got out from it (from the same teacher p.s.). Also in seminary (different teacher/year), I purposely brought a dark drink with tea bags floating in it and the teacher/students asked uncomfortably (for them) what it was. I said tea, not specifying that it was herbal, and enjoyed watching them squirm for a second before specifying. I'm that type of a person.

 

So when you mention "what does that do to the youth that want tattoos," I honestly scratch my head. I've had a number of YSA's tell me they've always wanted a tat and I usually mention my own opinion (I don't want any permanent image on my body and that I like it as it is), and it's theirs to choose to do whatever....and that they have a place in the church and with me either way.  

 

 

Obedience is pertinent, as is every other Christ-like virtue. It should be sought after in accordance with all the other ones. It's when thing are out of balance that it becomes problematic. And we all have moments of imbalance where we become over-zealous/off-center in the pursuit of something that is good or true at the expense of minimizing another truth. 

 

 

 

Did they have LDS in mind when they came up with these questions?  My word, they listed so many I can't even count that struck close to home.  I'm embarrassed to say I got 77%.  I at first had 5 or below and sometimes a 1.  But on a few it was a 10 or hovering around that.  But see that many other organizations may do the same things, but I'm not aware because I'm a lifelong member. 

 

Over half of mine were probably at a 1 the vast majority were under 3 and only a few points (like dietary restrictions) were above a 5. And yes other organizations have similar attributes. But more importantly other people's perceptions of them across a range of faiths will also probably mention things similar.

 

With luv,

BD

Edited November 27, 2013 by BlueDreams

[pogi]

I purposely brought a dark drink with tea bags floating in it and the teacher/students asked uncomfortably (for them) what it was. I said tea, not specifying that it was herbal, and enjoyed watching them squirm for a second before specifying. I'm that type of a person.

 

[Tacenda]

Tacenda,

I suggest that what you responded to me may be connected to why you got a high score of 77% on the other more so than anything else....note that other LDS have also taken it and our scores have had quite a range (mine was 28%). You mentioned your son in seminary and the seminary teacher spouting off crazy things about coffee. I had a seminary teacher who spouted some crazy stuff about women's place and the evil teachings of evolution. It made me seethe. But I simply took it as his stupid opinion that I discarded as flawed and kept going to seminary for the many good things I got out from it (from the same teacher p.s.). Also in seminary (different teacher/year), I purposely brought a dark drink with tea bags floating in it and the teacher/students asked uncomfortably (for them) what it was. I said tea, not specifying that it was herbal, and enjoyed watching them squirm for a second before specifying. I'm that type of a person.

So when you mention "what does that do to the youth that want tattoos," I honestly scratch my head. I've had a number of YSA's tell me they've always wanted a tat and I usually mention my own opinion (I don't want any permanent image on my body and that I like it as it is), and it's theirs to choose to do whatever....and that they have a place in the church and with me either way.

Obedience is pertinent, as is every other Christ-like virtue. It should be sought after in accordance with all the other ones. It's when thing are out of balance that it becomes problematic. And we all have moments of imbalance where we become over-zealous/off-center in the pursuit of something that is good or true at the expense of minimizing another truth.

Over half of mine were probably at a 1 the vast majority were under 3 and only a few points (like dietary restrictions) were above a 5. And yes other organizations have similar attributes. But more importantly other people's perceptions of them across a range of faiths will also probably mention things similar.

With luv,

BD

I think I would have loved to hang out with you in school, thanks for your comments, very refreshing. I think I've just had a bad day, maybe if I take the test another day?

[canard78]

I think I would have loved to hang out with you in school, thanks for your comments, very refreshing. I think I've just had a bad day, maybe if I take the test another day?

Sorry Tacenda, I didn't mean to cause distress. I was more interested in letting us explore how we feel about the church rather than what the church really does.

I scored 67%. That's made me ask more questions about me rather than questions about the church. I don't think the church really is that far up the scale. By I allow myself to perceive it is.

[cumorah_hill2013]

Any kind of cultism is horrific and wrong. No logical and moral argument can be made to justify cultism, of any form. Whether is it a cultism of vladimir lenin or benito mussolini or ronald reagan or jesus christ... cultism is the most reprehensible and ****ed-up corruption for defenseless mind and soul of people...

 

It requires blind obedience, faith and piety with deep-seated doctrines to instate cultism, even among open and free societies..

 

It's time to think...and think...and think...

 

Please read the board rules before you post again.

[Tacenda]

Scored 10%.    I go to church in a tee shirt every sunday. God looks at the heart. 

Sign me up!  No wait, can't.  

[bluebell]

Any kind of cultism is horrific and wrong. No logical and moral argument can be made to justify cultism, of any form. Whether is it a cultism of vladimir lenin or benito mussolini or ronald reagan or jesus christ... cultism is the most reprehensible and ****ed-up corruption for defenseless mind and soul of people...

 

It requires blind obedience, faith and piety with deep-seated doctrines to instate cultism, even among open and free societies..

 

It's time to think...and think...and think...

 

What exactly is 'cultism'?

[Tacenda]

 

From Wikipedia, "the anti-cult movement tend to define a "cult" as a group that tends to manipulate, exploit, and control its members. Specific factors in cult behavior are said to include manipulative and authoritarian mind control over members, communal and totalistic organization, aggressive proselytizing, systematic programs of indoctrination, and perpetuation in middle-class communities."

 

On that basis, would you agree that any of the following would describe a cult (alone or collectively). And would you agree or disagree that any of the following apply to the church:

 

1. This organization manages where, how and with whom the member lives and associates. Association with non-members is discouraged.

Defines: I can see how this might be part of an "anti-cult" definition.

Applicable: I don't think so

 

2. The organization has rules regarding what clothing, colors, hairstyles or footwear the member wears.

Defines: On its own, clearly not. As mentioned, some employers and clubs require a certain 'appearance.' As part of a bigger group of attributes, maybe.

Applicable: Yes. Not all of the above, but clearly there are expected dress and grooming standards.

 

3. The organization has restrictions or proscriptions about diet.

Defines: Seems a stronger classifier than '2' as it's unlikely that organisation have diet proscriptions. I suppose some athletes do

Applicable: Yes. Though often only followed in part! (Meat...)

 

4. This organization has rules governing sleep and wake-up times.

Define: Don't know

Applicable: No (I suppose there's an 'early to bed...' - and FT-missionaries)

 

5. This organization creates conditions that may make the member financially dependent upon it.

Define: Yes, I think so

Applicable: No, I don't think so. Quite the opposite. I suppose someone could argue that the "promise of tithing blessings makes you dependent on paying them" - but I wouldn't agree!

 

7. Preparing for and attending all of the recommended meetings constitutes a major time commitment.

Define: Potentially, if an organisation consumes all your time then it may be part of a definition

Applicable: Yes and no. For many it's 3 hours a week. On the other hand, there have been times in my life when I've been doing a "church thing" on: Monday (at home, but recommended), Tuesday (youth activity), Wednesday (Home teaching), Thursday (PEC), Saturday (ward or stake activity), Sunday (obviously). In between those I'd be preparing lessons, activities reports etc.

 

8. Permission needs to be sought (from leaders or from the divine) for major life decisions, such as education, retirement, marriage or pregnancy.

Define: Yes

Applicable: Not permission (though guidance is given)

 

That'll do for now. There are 50 more!

 

Thanks for these 10, I'll add more to the list.  But need to mention that some of these can and do help me in my life sometimes.  I'll note where I believe it's helpful.  I retook the test and got a 66%.  A little better.   

 

2.  Rules Regarding Clothing:  Hairstyles: short hair for men is preferred. ( doesn't affect me)  Clothing: I once had a RS Pres. urge the women not to wear levi skirts/dresses to church.  Offended me since I would wear these all the time.  But this of course didn't come from the top, I'm thinking.  Footwear: I was told that the women should always wear shoes/socks when HT's came for visits.  This was ridiculous and goes along with wanting women to dress modestly for the men's sake, as if they can't control thoughts!  But foot wear?  Wow!

 

3.  Diet Restrictions:  WoW, hello.  Helps though, I'd probably be a raging alcoholic/on the streets, without my walk in Mormonism.  Only half kidding.   

 

5.  Financial Dependence:  We are encouraged to pay tithing before anything else, bills etc.  Then I guess the church will kick in if something goes wrong. 

 

6.  Time Commitments:  Yes, see below.

 

7.  Meetings Time Commitment:  Canard stated it perfectly!

 

9.  Self Reporting:  Reporting recruitment....missionaries, hello again.

 

10.  Reinforcement:  If we're doing everything we should, we get a TR, if not well...

 

13. Dependence on Obedience:  Nothing more to say.

 

14.  Identity Replacement:  They mention using Bro. & Sis. titles etc.  I don't think this is terrible. 

 

18.  External Resources:  Think Palmer & Quinn.

 

19.  Critical Information:  see 18

 

21.  Busy Schedules:  I guess it depends on your calling.

 

22.  Compartmentalization:  Access to all institutions doctrines are not freely accessible to would be converts?  Converts aren't aware of quite a bit, imo.

 

23.  Tiered Objectives:  Access to financial or membership data?  No to financial but yes to some membership data, which is fine.

 

24.  Paternalistic Leadership:  "Milk before Meat" !

 

26.  Confessions:  Stake conference talk once....they talked about confessing our sins to one another.  Also, TR interviews & bishops interviews for the youth.

 

27.  Prolific Publications:  Ensign, New Era, Friend, KSL radio/TV, Deseret News...

 

30.  Defining Reality:  Is our church the "correct" view?  Oh, yes.

 

33.  Us vs. Them:  Yes, seems so, in comments during class lessons.

 

35.  Good & Proper Thought:  Yes, like, think of a hymn to replace bad thoughts, which to me is probably fine to do. 

 

37.  Chanting:  Think the YW & YM's themes.  They recite these, what, weekly?

 

46.  Emotional Control:  Think Handcart Pioneers, though now I'm being picky. 

 

47.  Fear of Thought:  "the thinking has been done" statement, but since has been very downplayed.

 

48.  Fear of the World:  Again, in lesson discussion, have heard statements that go along with this. 

 

51.  Fear of Exile:  For me, yes.

 

60.  Childhood Commitment:  Yes, children "were" encouraged to bear testimony, are encouraged to get baptized, are encouraged to have love for the prophet.  All at such a young age, where they aren't old enough to think critically. 

Edited November 27, 2013 by Tacenda

[rpn]

I can't answer the survey.   IME, there are lots of recommendations and advice and guidance, and NO forced behavior (which is not to say that in some congregations the leaders and/or the teens are clothing or behavior police --- that does happen from time to time and place to place). 

[Calm]

 

It's time to think...and think...and think...

That comes across as rather cultish to me.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I've never felt cultish while attending church.

[pogi]

I've never felt cultish while attending church.

 

That's a sign that you are probably in a cult.  They have you brain-washed man!

[rpn]

I was struck by the question of the church producing media ---- I'd wager that the LDS church is among the most prolific.   But there is no prohibition in the church for reading anything that is NOT church produced.   The only prohibition is teaching what is in the manual --- if you are acting for the church, you teach what the church (the Lord) has decreed should be taught.   

 

I just don't see that producing material equals cult. 

 

 

I also don't see any LDS church lead suggestion to only associate with church members.   (BTW, my score was 22%.)

 

The big reason that I tend to laugh at those who suggest that the LDS church is run as a cult is that none of the counsel requires obedience to the church ---- God may have a different take.   Sure it is possible to be excommunicated ---- but that doesn't even cut you off from attendance at meetings.   Worst it gets you is a 10% raise and 20 hours more of free time because you don't have a calling.

 

I feel sad for those who perceive the level of control reflected in the higher ratings identified here.

Edited November 29, 2013 by rpn

[Alan]

I have just taken the test and got a score of 18%.

They issued me with a gentle warning.

[Tacenda]

I was struck by the question of the church producing media ---- I'd wager that the LDS church is among the most prolific. But there is no prohibition in the church for reading anything that is NOT church produced. The only prohibition is teaching what is in the manual --- if you are acting for the church, you teach what the church (the Lord) has decreed should be taught.

I just don't see that producing material equals cult.

I also don't see any LDS church lead suggestion to only associate with church members. (BTW, my score was 22%.)

The big reason that I tend to laugh at those who suggest that the LDS church is run as a cult is that none of the counsel requires obedience to the church ---- God may have a different take. Sure it is possible to be excommunicated ---- but that doesn't even cut you off from attendance at meetings. Worst it gets you is a 10% raise and 20 hours more of free time because you don't have a calling.

I feel sad for those who perceive the level of control reflected in the higher ratings identified here.

It's like a scorned lover or an ex, with a changed outlook. TBM's have low scores because they are in a honeymoon phase. I use to scoff at anyone calling my religion a cult. But can see that there are good and bad cults/cultures. When one loses that love/faith it can turn into a caustic relationship. Friends and family sometimes have to choose, like in divorce, what side to take. We are a disease, so to speak, or a germ that might spread doubt (BKP). People tend to stay away from anything that might harm their faith, very understandable though.

The question at the end of the test stands out to me, about children bearing testimony. Think of the "Testimony Glove" put out by an apostle's wife. It teaches how to bear testimony to young children. http://www.lds.org/friend/2008/10/testimony-glove

And the strong push to go by feelings. If we already think the church teaches good things, or told th BoM is the most correct then it's in our minds to start out with. Just saying, for those that don't understand how one can disbelieve even when they felt the spirit at one time.

 

ETA:  Or think of the church changing renowned artist Carl Bloch's painting of the angels outside of the tomb.  The church clipped the wings off and put cap sleeves on the angels to make them more modest.  Pertaining to the questing of modesty in dress, and control over media.  There's too many instances to mention, but really the church, any church isn't perfect and can change.   http://www.dovesandserpents.org/wp/2012/05/on-immodest-angels/

Edited November 29, 2013 by Tacenda

[rpn]

 

Or think of the church changing renowned artist Carl Bloch's painting of the angels outside of the tomb.  The church clipped the wings off and put cap sleeves on the angels to make them more modest.  Pertaining to the questing of modesty in dress, and control over media.

 I was less active for a long time and excommunicated.  Tacenda, I don't think you get to say that people see what they see because they are naive.    Why is it "cultish" to make sure that the things the church publishes is consistent with guidelines of what is encouraged or expected?   And no one HAS to choose between loved ones during divorces, though sometimes a couple or one side or another will try to control people that way.     I refuse to believe that children cannot have a testimony of Jesus or true principles.  Sure it might be based on the recency of their coming from heaven of which they have spirit memory but no human memory.   But they of all mortals must be able to feel the Spirit bear testimony of truth.

[Tacenda]

I was less active for a long time and excommunicated. Tacenda, I don't think you get to say that people see what they see because they are naive. Why is it "cultish" to make sure that the things the church publishes is consistent with guidelines of what is encouraged or expected? And no one HAS to choose between loved ones during divorces, though sometimes a couple or one side or another will try to control people that way. I refuse to believe that children cannot have a testimony of Jesus or true principles. Sure it might be based on the recency of their coming from heaven of which they have spirit memory but no human memory. But they of all mortals must be able to feel the Spirit bear testimony of truth.

Handholding and protection from others views doesn't seem like the leaders think we are mature enough to understand that Carl is not LDS. We know he sees differently. Control is all I can think of in these instances. Telling a child that young how to bear a testimony? Sorry if I just disagree. When I spoke of divorce, I was comparing it to a person that loses that relationship with the church. And I can say what I feel is true in my heart can't I, referring to you saying I don't get to say that people see what they see because they are naïve, I'm saying the opposite, we or people in the church aren't naïve, we know that the church wants modesty, we're not going to think sleeveless is ok, because Carl Bloch portrayed angels like that. Sometimes, IMO, the church treats us as little children. Edited November 30, 2013 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

What exactly is 'cultism'?

Whatever I don't believe.

[BlueDreams]

Handholding and protection from others views doesn't seem like the leaders think we are mature enough to understand that Carl is not LDS.  We know he sees differently.  Control is all I can think of in these instances.  Telling a child that young how to bear a testimony?  Sorry if I just disagree.  When I spoke of divorce, I was comparing it to a person that loses that relationship with the church.  And I can say what I feel is true in my heart can't I, referring to you saying I don't get to say that people see what they see because they are naïve, I'm saying the opposite, we or people in the church aren't naïve, we know that the church wants modesty, we're not going to think sleeveless is ok, because Carl Bloch portrayed angels like that.  Sometimes, IMO, the church treats us as little children.   

 

 

IMHO, the naivete is less inferred about the painting being doctored and more from you assuming that TBM's are in some sort of honeymoon phase because they got low scores. Now look at those who scored low (ex. Me, BB, rpn, Alan, etc). We hardly fit the mold of being in some sort of honeymoon phase with the church. This is not indicative or parallel to some sorry relationship status. And if it were there are such better apt parallels that could actually fit some molds than what you mentioned. What you described is a completely victimhood stance to a person who has lost faith in the church....Victim of the church, their friends/families, circumstance, church culture etc.   

 

And onto the painting being doctored. You are polarizing the issue. I paint and love art and I find it ironic that you pull this image up as indicative of the church babying it's members and being controlling....considering the Museum of Art at BYU currently has a number of Bloch/other's painting on display....a number of them with wings. I painted a religious piece that showed part of a woman's breast, and all of her shoulder, while breastfeeding a naked child. If I submitted it to the ensign, I wouldn't expect it to show in it any time soon. It's a certain venue that has very specific guidelines as to what will or will not show.....specific guidelines that they don't enforce in other public venues for art or expect artists to take though the lds church still encourages/permits such expression.

For example here's a painting from an LDS artist with practically the same posture: http://art.jkirkrichards.com/viewer/?item=AngelinGold349477339

Here's another by him that would be considered more revealing than bloch's: http://art.jkirkrichards.com/viewer/?item=FigurewithWings261961219

 

Yet his work is sold in a number of LDS venues, he lives and does much of his business in UT, and a number of his pieces have been in more official LDS venues, etc. If the church was trying to censor messages as a whole through media, you think they could do a better job.

 

It is one image, Tacenda, in one specific venue, that has specific policies/expectations for images. The difference for how I see it and what you've indicated is that, for me.....this is in balance with everything else I see and know about LDS art and the culture surrounding it. For you this one image becomes representative of the entire use for art and the LDS culture surrounding art/images and ultimately the church itself. It becomes polarized, taking an always/never stance, that gives a picture of the church that has more power and control over it. Similar assumptions I see in your responses/reasoning for the specific questions you mentioned as well. In many of the reasons give, one specific example that applies is extrapolated to the whole, allowing for higher scores.      

 

 

With luv,

BD