Is Mormon Culture Cult-Ish?

[Tacenda]

Here is my score. This kind of freaks me out:

87% Extremely Controlling

This is an extremely high result and we urge caution. The intensity and degree of control that this institution exerts is cause for considerable concern. The mechanisms for deep-seated psychological control are firmly in place and have a high potential to be exploited.

This is not to say that everything about the organization is bad, or does no good. It means that they use methods common to other extremely controlling cults.

We recommend you seek the opinion of a non-affiliated therapist for a professional consultation as soon as possible.

Further, we recommend research of mind control methods, compliance techniques and social psychology to protect yourself from abuses from this and any other organization.

Finally, someone who scored higher than me. BTW, I think sometimes I put "10" on the things that actually happen in our church, but maybe should have done it according to the degree it occurs, still some would remain a 10. Like the church not disclosing financial records, media control and publications. Teaching children to love the leader etc.

[webbles]

Finally, someone who scored higher than me. BTW, I think sometimes I put "10" on the things that actually happen in our church, but maybe should have done it according to the degree it occurs, still some would remain a 10. Like the church not disclosing financial records, media control and publications. Teaching children to love the leader etc.

Ranking things from 1 to 10 is really hard for me to do.  When I did the tests, I was more comparing where I felt that the church fell amongst all other organizations.  So for the financial record question, I couldn't give it a 10 because it is more open than some other organizations.  It definitely doesn't get a 1 because it is more closed than others.  I believe I gave it a 5 or 6.

 

I have the same problem when using the scale of 1 to 10 for pain. I'll probably never be able to say that my pain is 10 because I'll always think there is some pain far worse than what I'm feeling.  So even if it is the worse pain I've ever felt in my life, it can only be at most 7 or 8.

[canard78]

You're right we do have that song about Jesus and several others. I don't mind following the prophet's advice if it is holy, but ever since my crisis, I tend to replace words in church. I serve in Primary and when we sing "Follow the Prophet", I always replace prophet with "Saviour", I don't know if anyone has caught on, nor do I say, we believe the bible as far as it's translated correctly, I just leave the tail end off. I'm bad I know.

Second time I've quoted this today:

"There's no office in the Church that qualifies the holder to give the official interpretation of the Church. We're to read the scriptures for ourselves, as guided by the Spirit.

Joseph Smith himself often disagreed with various of his brethren on different points, yet he never cracked down on them, saying they'd better change this or that, or else. He disagreed with Parley P. Pratt on a number of things, and also with Brigham Young on various things."

Hugh Nibley

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=103&chapid=1154

[canard78]

Interesting, took the quiz and got a 43% rating. Is this a test for your level of cynicism?

I think it's interesting as a test of perceptions. It's not a very good research tool as the survey has some flaws and limitations.

The range of scores is as much a reflection of our attitudes as it is a reflection on the church.

I personally can't see how some people are getting around 20%. We each go to the same church and yet seem to have very different perspectives on what the church teaches.

[EllenMaksoud]

Here is my score.  This kind of freaks me out:

 

 

87% Extremely Controlling

This is an extremely high result and we urge caution. The intensity and degree of control that this institution exerts is cause for considerable concern. The mechanisms for deep-seated psychological control are firmly in place and have a high potential to be exploited.

This is not to say that everything about the organization is bad, or does no good. It means that they use methods common to other extremely controlling cults.

We recommend you seek the opinion of a non-affiliated therapist for a professional consultation as soon as possible.

Further, we recommend research of mind control methods, compliance techniques and social psychology to protect yourself from abuses from this and any other organization.

I will gladly trade your conditioning for mine.

[EllenMaksoud]

I think the cult part could come in if you feel you have compulsions and where they came from. If you have compulsions that make you do good things are they compulsions?  I have a compulsion, and perhaps most of us have some of what others would call compulsions.  What is your compulsion? Do you know what it is?

[BlueDreams]

I think the cult part could come in if you feel you have compulsions and where they came from. If you have compulsions that make you do good things are they compulsions?  I have a compulsion, and perhaps most of us have some of what others would call compulsions.  What is your compulsion? Do you know what it is?

I think by compulsions in terms of scoring cults would be less about the internal or self motivated goals.....but the sense of external force exerted by the organization.

 

I guess if you personally feel driven to do something that's against the larger organization's view and you that would give a  greater sense of being forced if you were 'giving up' your thoughts or feelings for the other.

 

With luv,

Bd

[BlueDreams]

I personally can't see how some people are getting around 20%. We each go to the same church and yet seem to have very different perspectives on what the church teaches.

 

It could be less about what and more about how it's taught and how is it enforced. For example on the apparel question, I probably scored it around a 4 or 5. We do have an expectation for appearance and endowed members are expected to wear g's. But if I choose not to be modest pre endowment there's no immediate consequence. If I show up in church in pants, the most I'll get is a hard stare in certain wards (not my current one p.s.). if I don't wear my g's I could not go to the temple for not keeping my covenant but there's no actual means to assure that i'm doing it. So though there is pressure to conform, it's largely social not organizational. The consequences are minimal. And the ones that would be considered greater are based on your own self disclosure and self governed.

 

Wow scored higher but was still not a ten. The are more immediate social or organizational consequences. But the wow is only enforced to a point (some of the don't's), the rest are self guided and the consequences there are are not as severe as they could be. Plus most of the guidelines aren't exactly superfluous (like no carrots on Tues or no meat/animal products ever), are things that are now generally proscribed to the larger population, and generally benefits the population with longevity as they choose to follow.

 

I never counted exceptional populations in this. For example if I thought of missionary life the score would be a whole lot higher.

 

With luv,

Bd

Edited December 1, 2013 by BlueDreams

[Tacenda]

OK, I got one. Try not doing something in the church like not Fasting, not paying Tithing, not accepting Callings, without feeling guilt, guilt, guilt and tell me we're not cultish.

ETA: Also, when people leave or are inactive, the church won't leave them alone. That's a question on another quiz, I believe.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Tacenda

[BlueDreams]

OK, I got one. Try not doing something in the church like not Fasting, not paying Tithing, not accepting Callings, without feeling guilt, guilt, guilt and tell me we're not cultish.

I'm doing that today. I just started my favorite time of the month. they're pretty bad so I don't fast during them. I started my fast this morning when I woke up, realized I started and am about to stop with a large and scrumptious breakfast. I might skip out on the last 2 meetings because of it. Even on a normal day I often shorten my fasts because of my metabolism so that it stops early afternoon. I've never felt guilty about it. Fasting is between me and the Lord. No one else.

 

I have tailored my callings. I asked to be a temple worker, made it explicit that I never wanted anything to do with FHE's in a YSA, and told the counselors from the get-go this semester that I needed an easy calling so that I could continue my temple work and go to grad school. No amount of guilt. The only time I felt bad about it was when they gave me an easy calling that I didn't like and turned it down. They were ok with it....not an ounce of judgment....offered another that I took. I didn't feel guilty about it. But then felt prompted by the spirit later that that wasn't right way about things.

 

I wouldn't not pay my tithing unless circumstances warranted that (ie. don't make an income) and I would feel guilty about it. But I don't see tithing as some sort of letter-of-the-law, checklist command. I pay because I feel extremely blessed by the Lord and want to pay the abundant opportunities He has given me forward. I know for a fact that much of where I am is on the generosity of millions of church members who also pay their tithing. It would be selfish of me to withhold when I have been given so much by the church/members (the blessings for me are quite concrete and not the general coined euphemism or indirect assertion....they include cheap competitive schooling, most of my jobs/paychecks, and my current very affordable masters program....plus my entire mission. Quite frankly I owe the church far more than I've currently ever given).

 

With luv,

BD  

[Storm Rider]

OK, I got one. Try not doing something in the church like not Fasting, not paying Tithing, not accepting Callings, without feeling guilt, guilt, guilt and tell me we're not cultish.

ETA: Also, when people leave or are inactive, the church won't leave them alone. That's a question on another quiz, I believe.

 

Tacenda, your examples are all personal and have nothing to do with the organization. The Church does not feel guilty if you do not wear garments. My f-in-l wears his garments while running; he feels it is better than taking them off. I find his position a little on the crazy, but it is his choice. I wear my garments when I think it is appropriate and I don't when I don't think they are appropriate. More importantly, I don't feel any guilt for when I don't wear garments. 

 

Do you see why your examples have more to do with your own feelings rather than the Church imposing them on you? When I was younger I would accept all callings that were offered; I think I have gotten a bit jaded and if I am not interested I would pass today. Having said that I would say that I have not done so, but I think I would feel comfortable responding "pass". 

 

I think we are a bit cultish when we expect everyone to wear a certain type of clothing on Sunday's.  Men that feel compelled to wear a white shirt and leaders expecting men to do so - that to me gets a bit carried away. It is not as bad as it was, but I never liked it.  

Edited December 2, 2013 by Storm Rider

[thesometimesaint]

I got a 31%, but I see that as reflective of all organizations.

[Stone holm]

I got a 31%, but I see that as reflective of all organizations.

My wife got a 28%. She felt it has a lot about perspective. I think it really says more about the person taking the survey than the organization. When I was taking it, I kept thinking that okay most members will answer that differently. If you don't view something in a certain way, then you will answer them differently. It's like the whole discussion of the sustaining ritual. I believe that a person trained in psychology is going to recognize that as a form of control mechanism, but members are not going to see it that way. Both may well be correct. I remember arguing, a couple decades ago in a graduate intellectual history class that we were a grass roots Church because of our council system. The Catholics in the class were very polite. Looking back, I realize how stupid that must have sounded since whatever we are we are not grassroots and the council system has to do much more with top down direction than bottom up flow which is minimal at best.

[EllenMaksoud]

I think by compulsions in terms of scoring cults would be less about the internal or self motivated goals.....but the sense of external force exerted by the organization.

 

I guess if you personally feel driven to do something that's against the larger organization's view and you that would give a  greater sense of being forced if you were 'giving up' your thoughts or feelings for the other.

 

With luv,

Bd

I see most of what goes on in the Church as mildly conditioning.  And I think the motive is to help people have lives pleasing to Heavenly Father.

 

I have one strong compulsion that the Church did not give me, nor did the Muslims. That compulsion is to OBEY when told to do something by a male in authority. It gets to be this whole "DEAL". Oddly, since joining the LDS church, and having understood the doctrines better, the compulsion effect is greatly reduced.

[Senator]

I am just a little uncomfortable with the primary song Follow The Prophet. There are nine verses (my ward made up one more on Hinckley) and between each verse the children would chant/sing/yell:

Follow the prophet! Follow the prophet! Follow the prophet! Don't go astray!

Follow the prophet! Follow the prophet! Follow the prophet! He knows the way!!

Nine times (ten in my ward). 54 (or 60) "follow the prophet"s

In my ward the kids would pound one little fist into their open palm on every "follow."

Yeh, not liking that...

[Calm]

OK, I got one. Try not doing something in the church like not Fasting, not paying Tithing, not accepting Callings, without feeling guilt, guilt, guilt and tell me we're not cultish.

ETA: Also, when people leave or are inactive, the church won't leave them alone. That's a question on another quiz, I believe.

I don't fast, I don't pay tithing and I've turned down callings and I don't feel one bit of guilt about any of that.

[Tacenda]

I don't fast, I don't pay tithing and I've turned down callings and I don't feel one bit of guilt about any of that.

You don't fast because of health issues probably, and you probably pay tithing through your hubby, and some callings would be hard with lots of sleep problems.  But don't answer any of this.  I've become too personal.  I just felt this overwhelming feeling of dread because tithing settlement is coming up.  And my hubby is playing the old scare tactic on me that he isn't paying.  He always does though.  Plus the deacons came by for Fast offerings shortly after 10:00 am.  We were still in bed.  In my TBM days I'd be up out of bed in my robe and open the door.  But today we let them knock.  And last month we cooked breakfast on Fast Sunday, and one of the deacons said he smelled food and taunted my hubby and I for eating, we knew him, so that's why he probably thought it was ok.  So this week I thought I'd just eat cereal.  So if they came they wouldn't smell the bacon.  But guess we didn't need to worry.  I can't fast very well, extreme headaches.  Everything is building up, because I know it's all going to come to a head.   

[Tacenda]

"If my dad were alive he would be 98. Sadly he has been gone for some time. My memories of him are mostly from my youth up to my mission. Looking back on it I can see that my Dad was the original NOM. He never took the church to seriously. Went to church when he felt like it. Paid tithing off and on. Drank beer on occasion. Mostly he lived his life by his own set of rules. Of course when I was young the church had great sway over me, and I looked on my dad as deficient. I did not respect him because he would not tow the line and be in lock step with the church, like some of my friends dads. Thing is he was a sort of colorful and talented man. In his field of work he was respected and quite accomplished. But little of that mattered to me, I was embarrassed because I saw beer in the fridge from time to time. Or he would say things like do not believe what the leaders tell you all the time. And this was in the 1970's.

So I fought against his ways. Went on a mission which he supported, returned and did all the mormon things for 30 years. All the while thinking my dad was a lost soul in the eternities. So now I have one more thing to be bitter at the church about. The church stole the few years I had with my dad from me. The church taught me to minimize his advice. The church taught me to argue with him and marginalize him. Of course no youth leader at the time thought they were doing this. They never intended to do it but it was the only result possible when the church was so at odds with the life my father lived. And I choose the church out of fear.

Of course my dad died when I was newly married so I will never know what might have been had he lived. Perhaps he would have got me on the NOM road much sooner. I do know that there is a whole new crop of young men that may be in the same boat I was. Having to choose church or family. It is sad to see.

I miss my dad. I wish I had his advice now."

 

The quote above is from someone on NOM.  I feel sometimes we as members that deal with our family that aren't TBM, create barriers between us.  I know I did with my inactive family.  It came naturally I guess, from our different lifestyles.  But hopefully this doesn't occur often, but tend to see that it can. 

 

So is this cultish? 

[Calm]

That is anecdotal and he is looking back with a different attitude and judgment then when originally going through it, the description cannot be confirmed as accurate or not. Is there any reason why we should assume his current stance is somehow more perspective of his actions and motivations than his older stance or that he isn't completely reinterpreting what happened in the past to make it better fit with his current beliefs, etc. isn't this what we all do?

As far as my personal choices, I've let the Spirit confirm for me what choices to make in most cases...no need to feel guilt then, and if the Spirit didn't confirm but told me otherwise then it's God's direction I am rejecting and I assume you agree that ignoring God should result in at least some guilt feelings? Or is that cultish too?

Edited December 2, 2013 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

That is anecdotal and therefore cannot be confirmed as accurate or not.

As far as my personal choices, I've let the Spirit confirm for me what choices to make in most cases...no need to feel guilt then, and if the Spirit didn't confirm but told me otherwise then it's God's direction I am rejecting and I assume you agree that ignoring God should result in at least some guilt feelings? Or is that cultish too?

No, of course not. I wish I had that line of communication so many of you have.

[Calm]

No, of course not. I wish I had that line of communication so many of you have.

If the same behaviour can result from being motivated by the Spirit as 'cultish coercion' then it seems to me almost useless to try and measure the level of cultishness that exist within the Church. If so, then why not instead focus on motivating good actions for the right reasons, encouraging others (and oneself) to seek the Spirit first and foremost among our actions and discourage behaviours that are unloving, ungodly and uncharitable?

It seems to me a lot of wasted energy to go around worrying why others are behaving the way they do when we aren't happy with what we are doing ourselves..surely putting energy into something we can change and know needs changing is much better use of our time and concerns.

Edited December 2, 2013 by calmoriah

[pogi]

Of course when I was young the church had great sway over me, and I looked on my dad as deficient. I did not respect him because he would not tow the line and be in lock step with the church, like some of my friends dads. Thing is he was a sort of colorful and talented man. In his field of work he was respected and quite accomplished. But little of that mattered to me, I was embarrassed because I saw beer in the fridge from time to time. Or he would say things like do not believe what the leaders tell you all the time. And this was in the 1970's.

So I fought against his ways. Went on a mission which he supported, returned and did all the mormon things for 30 years. All the while thinking my dad was a lost soul in the eternities. So now I have one more thing to be bitter at the church about. The church stole the few years I had with my dad from me. The church taught me to minimize his advice. The church taught me to argue with him and marginalize him. Of course no youth leader at the time thought they were doing this. They never intended to do it but it was the only result possible when the church was so at odds with the life my father lived. And I choose the church out of fear.

Of course my dad died when I was newly married so I will never know what might have been had he lived. Perhaps he would have got me on the NOM road much sooner. I do know that there is a whole new crop of young men that may be in the same boat I was. Having to choose church or family. It is sad to see.

I miss my dad. I wish I had his advice now."

 

The quote above is from someone on NOM.  I feel sometimes we as members that deal with our family that aren't TBM, create barriers between us.  I know I did with my inactive family.  It came naturally I guess, from our different lifestyles.  But hopefully this doesn't occur often, but tend to see that it can. 

 

So is this cultish? 

 

On one side, I can empathize and understand why, as a little girl/boy in the church, one might feel embarrassed about their dad and not respect him for his lifestyle.  On the other hand, I don't see how you can blame the church.  No, their father was not living the teachings of the church, but where does it say "honor your fathers...unless he drinks beer occasionally?"  Were does it say "do not judge others...unless it is your father?"  It seems to me that the father was not the only one not living the gospel principles in this story. 

 

Christ taught us to not steal.   Let's say that you saw your dad steal something and you chose to be embarrassed by your dad's actions, is it then Christ's fault that you are embarrassed?  Neither is it the church's fault in the above story.  What you are basically asking is, "is it cultish to teach any sort of life principles whatsoever?"  No it is not.  The church is not responsible for barriers that we choose to put up in our relationships.  You are responsible for your relationships, for honoring your father, for not judging others, and for loving others as ourselves, etc.

Edited December 2, 2013 by pogi

[Calm]

Tacenda, it seems to me that if the Church was as cultish as you seem to fear, it would be a lot better at getting you to do all those things you are supposedly supposed to be doing than it apparently is (according to how you describe what you think you should be doing).

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, it seems to me that if the Church was as cultish as you seem to fear, it would be a lot better at getting you to do all those things you are supposedly supposed to be doing than it apparently is (according to how you describe what you think you should be doing).

It's the tip of the iceberg. I haven't seen the wrath of my actions yet. Stay tuned.

[Calm]

It's the tip of the iceberg. I haven't seen the wrath of my actions yet. Stay tuned.

You've been a member for your entire life, right?  And now they are just getting around to paying attention?  We really need to work harder or we will never get the respect we deserve as a cult.