Is Mormon Culture Cult-Ish?

[Tacenda]

Yeah, it's little things. Nothing major yet, I don't think I'm a project yet. Now if I get a basket of fruit then I'll know. My ward has usually sent baskets around to widowers, elderly and inactives at Christmas time. So not wrath, bad word. I just want to remain in the fold still and hidden.

 

You are derailing again.  You are removed when you do this.

[Stone holm]

I think by compulsions in terms of scoring cults would be less about the internal or self motivated goals.....but the sense of external force exerted by the organization.

 

I guess if you personally feel driven to do something that's against the larger organization's view and you that would give a  greater sense of being forced if you were 'giving up' your thoughts or feelings for the other.

 

With luv,

Bd

 

I suspect that the scoring on the survey is more attuned to whether a person senses the external motivation mechanisms rather than whether they are there.  "Forced" is not a good word for these mechanisms except for the ham fisted ones like shunning, etc. that we really do not overtly become involved in.  My wife, the ultimate source of my spiritual understanding re things churchy, stated that the survey results would vary if you separated the way most members behave and apply Church policies and programs, from the actual Church policies and programs.  She also felt, however, that people who scored in the teens must not be aware of how the Church operates -- which kind of shocked me, because she usually defends the Church from anything even remotely questionable.

[pmccombs1]

... the survey results would vary if you separated the way most members behave and apply Church policies and programs, from the actual Church policies and programs.  ...

 

What accounts for the disparity between Mormon culture and Mormon teaching? There is a definite flavor to the culture that doesn't seem to be completely attributable to current church policy. Indeed, sometimes the church speaks out against the symptoms that are presented by its most zealous adherents.

 

We often think of things like "cults" as intentional evils that happen because of malice, selfishness, pride, etc.  I'm convinced that many of the problems that detractors attribute to overt conspiracy are actually systemic evils. Nobody has created them on purpose, and few in leadership roles make connections between the institution they have crafted and the cultural problems that arise among the followers. The institution may be responsible on a certain level, but not in the way that its critics think it is.

[EllenMaksoud]

What accounts for the disparity between Mormon culture and Mormon teaching? There is a definite flavor to the culture that doesn't seem to be completely attributable to current church policy. Indeed, sometimes the church speaks out against the symptoms that are presented by its most zealous adherents.

 

We often think of things like "cults" as intentional evils that happen because of malice, selfishness, pride, etc.  I'm convinced that many of the problems that detractors attribute to overt conspiracy are actually systemic evils. Nobody has created them on purpose, and few in leadership roles make connections between the institution they have crafted and the cultural problems that arise among the followers. The institution may be responsible on a certain level, but not in the way that its critics think it is.

Sometimes, even when we are members of relatively benevolent religions, people can make that experience a cult for themselves owing to their own issues. Perhaps some people "need" to be controlled by a cult to feel secure.

 

This thread has been a great tool to aid mindful consideration. In comparison to Islam, and fundamentalist Christianity,  Mormons are extremely mild, supportive, reinforcing, benevolent, devout worshipers or Heavenly Father, in my opinion.

[canard78]

I suspect that the scoring on the survey is more attuned to whether a person senses the external motivation mechanisms rather than whether they are there. "Forced" is not a good word for these mechanisms except for the ham fisted ones like shunning, etc. that we really do not overtly become involved in. My wife, the ultimate source of my spiritual understanding re things churchy, stated that the survey results would vary if you separated the way most members behave and apply Church policies and programs, from the actual Church policies and programs. She also felt, however, that people who scored in the teens must not be aware of how the Church operates -- which kind of shocked me, because she usually defends the Church from anything even remotely questionable.

Your wife sounds very wise.

The interesting thing about people's results is the evidence of confirmation bias. The weakness of the survey is also its advantage for a discussion like this. It is obvious from the outset how to get a "yes it's cultish" or "no it's not" result. That makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you adamantly don't want to be told the church acts like a cult then you can get a score to say so. The opposite is also true.

My score of 67% or someone else's of 18% or 88% is a reflection of us more than the church.

And the advantage of quant data is the final answer is somewhere in the mean/median of the group opinion. Your 43% is probably about right overall. If the survey had any real merit then the range of results might suggest the church is a bit cultish.

[canard78]

Sometimes, even when we are members of relatively benevolent religions, people can make that experience a cult for themselves owing to their own issues. Perhaps some people "need" to be controlled by a cult to feel secure.

This thread has been a great tool to aid mindful consideration. In comparison to Islam, and fundamentalist Christianity, Mormons are extremely mild, supportive, reinforcing, benevolent, devout worshipers or Heavenly Father,

And the brilliance of life's experience is captured in your final 3 words:

... in my opinion.

[Stone holm]

What accounts for the disparity between Mormon culture and Mormon teaching? There is a definite flavor to the culture that doesn't seem to be completely attributable to current church policy. Indeed, sometimes the church speaks out against the symptoms that are presented by its most zealous adherents.

 

We often think of things like "cults" as intentional evils that happen because of malice, selfishness, pride, etc.  I'm convinced that many of the problems that detractors attribute to overt conspiracy are actually systemic evils. Nobody has created them on purpose, and few in leadership roles make connections between the institution they have crafted and the cultural problems that arise among the followers. The institution may be responsible on a certain level, but not in the way that its critics think it is.

 

I tend to agree.  I don't think some of the things were intentional and as a result, members when taking the survey do not see them in the same light as if they were looking at the situation in the cold hard objective light.  When looked at in that way -- which, by the way, is not particularly spiritual, but is objective -- then you can see that yeah this is a form of control mechanism.  I think once one understands that fact -- then you can plunge ahead and obey anyway -- my wife and I discussed this for quite awhile last night.  She who is much more inclined to defend the Church, simply thought people were ignorant of the Gospel that they didn't realize that yes the Church did it that way, that is the way it is done -- I contended that they weren't ignorant of the Gospel, it just never occurred to them to think about what certain things did.  I am not certain you can necessarily easily separate the institution as crafted and the culture.  American culture is heavily embedded in Mormonism -- we may see some of that somewhat painfully withdrawn as the Church becomes more and more international -- but it may be a painful process and one which is very awkward at times.

[EllenMaksoud]

And the brilliance of life's experience is captured in your final 3 words:

 

Thank you.  It would not surprise me that some would feel that the Mormon Church is controlling. I wonder if it could be due to the fact that some of them have not given themselves to God?  The songs in childrens and Relief Society sometimes seem a bit daft to me, but upon reflection, aided by past experience, I have decided that these "programing" elements are largely benign and helpful.

 

I have no idea what the Priesthood sings, perhaps "Onward Christian Soldiers" and lusty songs about hubris and combat?

[Stone holm]

Thank you.  It would not surprise me that some would feel that the Mormon Church is controlling. I wonder if it could be due to the fact that some of them have not given themselves to God?  The songs in childrens and Relief Society sometimes seem a bit daft to me, but upon reflection, aided by past experience, I have decided that these "programing" elements are largely benign and helpful.

 

I have no idea what the Priesthood sings, perhaps "Onward Christian Soldiers" and lusty songs about hubris and combat?

 

Never liked that hymn seemed like we were being likened to Crusaders or something .

[EllenMaksoud]

Never liked that hymn seemed like we were being likened to Crusaders or something .

I can not stomach the song; it seems to be the ego centric musings of someone with delusions of grandeur.

[Stone holm]

I can not stomach the song; it seems to be the ego centric musings of someone with delusions of grandeur.

 

More it tends to make it sound like we are at war with the world.

[EllenMaksoud]

More it tends to make it sound like we are at war with the world.

It is a whole philosophy thing for me, and perhaps I am still perhaps too influenced by Islamic thought. As servants, brothers, sisters of Jesus Christ, we do not fight in a direct battle with satan, but instead, do our best to be wholly pleasing to Heavenly Father. We live our lives out before others, and hope that in some way they may see something holy and pleasing in us.  There are several times in the Bible where satan is allowed to wreak havok in the lives of Biblical characters. So, to me it is clear that we are defenseless against satan save Heavenly Father protect us.

[Stone holm]

It is a whole philosophy thing for me, and perhaps I am still perhaps too influenced by Islamic thought. As servants, brothers, sisters of Jesus Christ, we do not fight in a direct battle with satan, but instead, do our best to be wholly pleasing to Heavenly Father. We live our lives out before others, and hope that in some way they may see something holy and pleasing in us.  There are several times in the Bible where satan is allowed to wreak havok in the lives of Biblical characters. So, to me it is clear that we are defenseless against satan save Heavenly Father protect us.

 

But you got to remember that the major leap forward for Christian dominance in Europe occurred when Constantine embraced and established Christianity as the established religion -- and he did so be recounting a distinctly militaristic vision to reinvigorate his legions.  Although we as Mormons tend to consider the action of Constantine as marking when the Great Apostasy was complete, there are plenty of military metaphors in the Book of Mormon.  Yet, I too dislike the hymn as creating an us versus them atmosphere and type of thinking which is unhealthy

[bluebell]

I tend to agree.  I don't think some of the things were intentional and as a result, members when taking the survey do not see them in the same light as if they were looking at the situation in the cold hard objective light.  When looked at in that way -- which, by the way, is not particularly spiritual, but is objective -- then you can see that yeah this is a form of control mechanism.  I think once one understands that fact -- then you can plunge ahead and obey anyway -- my wife and I discussed this for quite awhile last night.  She who is much more inclined to defend the Church, simply thought people were ignorant of the Gospel that they didn't realize that yes the Church did it that way, that is the way it is done -- I contended that they weren't ignorant of the Gospel, it just never occurred to them to think about what certain things did.  I am not certain you can necessarily easily separate the institution as crafted and the culture.  American culture is heavily embedded in Mormonism -- we may see some of that somewhat painfully withdrawn as the Church becomes more and more international -- but it may be a painful process and one which is very awkward at times.

 

What I think is most interesting is that you see people who got a low score as not being 'objective', while I wouldn't be surprised if people who got a lower score see those with high scores as also not being objective.

 

Objectivity, like the scores on this test, is also a matter of perception.

[EllenMaksoud]

What I think is most interesting is that you see people who got a low score as not being 'objective', while I wouldn't be surprised if people who got a lower score see those with high scores as also not being objective.

 

Objectivity, like the scores on this test, is also a matter of perception.

My score was 14% and it seemed to me at the time that having experienced a lot of mind control and having gotten freed of it by Mormons, true mind control is clear to me. And perhap if there are things in the church meant to be mind control, I simply ignore it.

[bluebell]

My score was 14% and it seemed to me at the time that having experienced a lot of mind control and having gotten freed of it by Mormons, true mind control is clear to me. And perhap if there are things in the church meant to be mind control, I simply ignore it.

 

Perhaps that's the key.  Maybe one has to actually experience real mind control attempts to be able to recognize it later. 

[EllenMaksoud]

Perhaps that's the key.  Maybe one has to actually experience real mind control attempts to be able to recognize it later. 

Mine was absolutely malevolent and began very early on. From age 4 to 17 any violation brought the most vicious response. After that, with the compulsion to obey firmly implanted, I sought out controllers. It is only becoming clear now.  IMHO, Mormons are the least barbarous of any. I think my fundamentalist denomination was most hateful. Islam was most comfortable as long as they were shown obedience. One could never forget obedience when being on the floor 5 times a day, and cloaked in enforced anonymity the rest of the time. It was an isolated life. Once cloaked, to go in public in front of others was harshly dealt with.

 

Being Mormon is less painful because of the constant reinforcement, care of others and caring for others, and benevolent feeling emphasis on the love of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

 

In my opinion, Mormons do a lot to reverse the effect of previous malevolent conditioning.

 

I have wondered if those who strongly believe that Mormons program and control are simply dealing with their own rebellion?

Edited December 3, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[Stone holm]

What I think is most interesting is that you see people who got a low score as not being 'objective', while I wouldn't be surprised if people who got a lower score see those with high scores as also not being objective.

 

Objectivity, like the scores on this test, is also a matter of perception.

Just because something when viewed objectively is clearly a control mechanism, doesn't mean that it was intentionally implemented for that purpose. My wife who is much more defensive when it comes to the Church still got a higher score than many on this thread. Her feeling was that the low scores merely indicated people didn't understand how the Church operates. I disagreed. I did so because I knew from many of your posts that you did in fact know how the Church operates. The difference is if they saw the same mechanism in another organization they would most likely view it to be a control mechanism. But since they have a testimony so to them it does not appear as such.

[bluebell]

Just because something when viewed objectively is clearly a control mechanism, doesn't mean that it was intentionally implemented for that purpose. My wife who is much more defensive when it comes to the Church still got a higher score than many on this thread. Her feeling was that the low scores merely indicated people didn't understand how the Church operates. I disagreed. I did so because I knew from many of your posts that you did in fact know how the Church operates. The difference is if they saw the same mechanism in another organization they would most likely view it to be a control mechanism. But since they have a testimony so to them it does not appear as such.

 

I understand what you are saying.

 

What I'm saying is that I think your definition of what being objective is, is not very objective.

[Stone holm]

I understand what you are saying.

 

What I'm saying is that I think your definition of what being objective is, is not very objective.

How so?

[bluebell]

How so?

 

What I mean is, just as I assume you believe that I (and other with low scores) did not look at the questions on the survey in an objective manner, I assume the same about you.

 

I believe your prejudices are shown in your score, just as I assume you believe they are shown in mine.  And that's the problem with declaring that you (general 'you', not personal 'you') are objective and someone else isn't.

 

Objectivity isn't something that you can prove, not when you are talking about yourself.  A person can say they are objective and someone else isn't, but in the end it's all just opinion and interpretation based on biases and prejudices.  It's completely subjective.  Even in declaring their own objectivity, people aren't actually being objective.  It's like trying to write an academic paper without bias-it's not possible.

 

So, while I can appreciate trying to figure out why people's scores on the survey are so different, I don't believe labeling the group that agrees with you as 'objective' and the group you disagree with as 'not objective' is very valid. 

 

Unless I've completely misunderstood your point (which is very possible), and if so, I apologize.

[JDave]

A friend of mine got 48% with respect to his employment/employer.

 

The anti-religion bias is very apparent.  I agreed that some of the questions could be indicative of a problematic situation, but even answering a few of the benign questions with 5's still results in a "Be careful!" scare tactic at the end.

 

I also agree that it suffers heavily from confirmation bias.

[Stone holm]

A friend of mine got 48% with respect to his employment/employer.

 

The anti-religion bias is very apparent.  I agreed that some of the questions could be indicative of a problematic situation, but even answering a few of the benign questions with 5's still results in a "Be careful!" scare tactic at the end.

 

I also agree that it suffers heavily from confirmation bias.

 

Yeah that is what happened to me as I indicated several 5's, but did have a couple 10's -- which resulted in a similar score.  I really think it is testing the way people perceive something rather than anything substantive.  A person who tends to habitually and automatically defend the Church and Church leadership is going to look at the questions very differently from say a person who is inclined to question things about the Church.  Both may have strong testimonies, but they perceive things somewhat differently.  So the former is unlikely to mark any 10's and is more likely to mark everything either don't agree, 1 or 2, the latter is going to disagree with some, mark some 5's and few 10's.  So the former is going to wind up in the teens or twenties, and the latter in the thirties or forties.  I doubt that the survey is going to scare anyone away from the Church who wasn't already headed for the door, the main danger I can see with the survey is the possibility that those who reveal higher scores may have their loyalty to the Church questioned.  That seems to be an almost reflex response when someone raises a question about a policy or practice, usually followed by an accusation of disobedience.