Truth Vs Faith Which Are We Bound To Uphold When In Conflict

[DBMormon]

I believe there was a thread on this at one time, but I couldn't find. ( No I didn't search really hard either)

 

In the Church we imply many things which are blatantly false.  In my opinion this is no bigger then in how the average member understands True and Living in regards to the Church.  Some examples - 

 

- God's called servants are found in and only in the LDS church

           ex: Could called servants of God be serving in other faiths  D&C 49:8  Holy men that Joseph smith didn't even know about

 

- That our Church has all truth - hence we are the true Church

           - Do we have all truth?  Are there truths in other churches that we have not yet adopted?

 

-  That we have all keys

           -  but we, when we understand the context realize we do not have all keys.  Could another faith have keys we don't have?  This I personally say no, though I believe we have not been given all keys as some are yet to be restored

 

-  We get all excited about hearing we are at 15 million as if we are taking the world by storm.  If you asked most members how fast the Church is growing they would report that it is growing way faster then it actually is.

         - What did it mean for Joseph when he said " ‘It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this                Church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world."????

 

-  By being a member of the LDS church we have a better chance at salvation.  That by being LDS we are advantaged over our gentile brother and sisters

               - Does God favor his .2% over the other 99.8?

 

This is a prime example of how the majority of members are ignorant of the implications of what it really means to be the "True and Living Church"  and it is what leads to some having an arrogant better then them view that at times comes across.

 

I also feel the Church is in no hurry to correct these as they are ideals that give members something stronger to hold onto.  The idea of having a greater chance at salvation can keep some from leaving.

 

I talk about this whole concept and admit I steal many of my ideas from Terryl Givens

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/06/11/true-and-living-church/

 

You can debate my take on these but I am more concerned with the question

Is it ok to let people believe false things as long as that keeps them in the faith or does the motive of trying to dispel false teachings and teaching pure truth have more weight even at the expense of losing members form the Lord's Church????

Edited October 30, 2013 by DBMormon

[mfbukowski]

Is it ok to let people believe false things as long as that keeps them in the faith or does the motive of trying to dispel false teachings and teaching pure truth have more weight even at the expense of losing members form the Lord's Church????

Tell me how you prove truth and falsity in religious matters and I will happily give you an answer.

 

Is the resurrection true or false?  How do you know?  Is there an afterlife at all?  How do you know?  How does one establish the truth or falsity of any of these questions?

Edited October 30, 2013 by mfbukowski

[DBMormon]

Tell me how you prove truth and falsity in religious matters and I will happily give you an answer.

 

Is the resurrection true or false?  How do you know?  Is there an afterlife at all?  How do you know?  How does one establish the truth or falsity of any of these questions?

Your right in that I can't prove my view, and while these are matters of faith, I see evidence of them being wrong using our own scriptures to combat them.  Many are also very problematic when taking to their conclusion.  

[pogi]

I agree with you on most of your points.  I would not be too concerned about people losing faith over these superficial issues.  If their faith is based in these beliefs, their membership is not really worth anything anyways.  The scriptures teach us that faith is not faith unless it is in things which are true, so if a member loses faith after learning the truth, he never had faith to begin with. 

 

One point that I am at variance with is that while I don't think that being a member increases our chance at salvation, I think it does increase our chance of exaltation.  Even the dead must be baptized as member of the church in order to progress to exaltation.  If it were not so, there would be no need for missionary work and temple work.

Edited October 30, 2013 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

Is it ok to let people believe false things as long as that keeps them in the faith or does the motive of trying to dispel false teachings and teaching pure truth have more weight even at the expense of losing members form the Lord's Church????

 

This is a two edged sword.  People should be given time to come up to a level before certain truths are revealed to them.  Sometimes they should be allowed to hold on to false beliefs, but only while being prepared for more truth.

 

But that being said, all truth should be revealed as soon as a person is ready to handle it.  The Church role should not be keeping truth from people (or allowing them to believe false things) but should be preparing them to be able to receive all truth.

 

Joseph Smith often let the saints believe their old or foolish sectarian beliefs while at the same time revealing higher truths to members who were able to handle them.  When Brigham led the Saints across the plains there were beliefs about where they were heading and the society that would develop that bore little resemblance to reality, but the belief got them here.

[pogi]

 

         - What did it mean for Joseph when he said " ‘It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this                Church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world."????

 

 

I think he saw it doing exactly what it has done in having the priesthood be established in the four corners of the earth.  I don't think he used the word "fill" to indicate that the majority of the world would be Mormons.  The scriptures seem to indicate that it would not be so, I think Joseph realized that, I think most members do to. 

Edited October 30, 2013 by pogi

[Stroopwafel]

The concept of faith allows someone to hold a belief without explicitly formulating its justification. The belief is a "containing" (e.g. the examples you gave), but what's being contained inside is "that which is unseen but which one has a hope for". We hope for substance, but what form does it exactly assume, it is really of no consequential concern for the faithful.

 

When we wish to bring truth to light, we explicitly address that substance (of the claim), we assess it, we get to know its form.

 

Faith allows any sort of justification for holding a particular belief, which justification doesn't have to be the same between people and may vary in err.

 

"Truth" brings certain aspects on the table that have to be considered in a particular light, which brings a more uniformed, and yes true, understanding.

 

Ultimately, truth should be priviledged.

 

 

Edit: "have" became "assume", and added "consequential" (3rd sentence)

Edited October 30, 2013 by Stroopwafel

[ERayR]

Your right in that I can't prove my view, and while these are matters of faith, I see evidence of them being wrong using our own scriptures to combat them.  Many are also very problematic when taking to their conclusion.  

 

So, let me get this right.  The truth you know is based on faith in the interpretation you accept?

[DBMormon]

I agree with you on most of your points.  I would not be too concerned about people losing faith over these superficial issues.  If their faith is based in these beliefs, their membership is not really worth anything anyways.  The scriptures teach us that faith is not faith unless it is in things which are true, so if a member loses faith after learning the truth, he never had faith to begin with. 

 

One point that I am at variance with is that while I don't think that being a member increases our chance at salvation, I think it does increase our chance of exaltation.  Even the dead must be baptized as member of the church in order to progress to exaltation.  If it were not so, there would be no need for missionary work and temple work.

 

We will have to agreeably disagree.  When we look back I don't believe we will see a higher number of LDS (in this life) having achieved exaltation versus people who were not LDS in this life.  I just don't see it.  God's plan is to bring to pass the immortality AND Eternal life of his Children and I don't see him disadvantaging those who did not join the Church either because they didn't have the chance, didn't see it as having more value then their current belief system, or were swayed by critical comments.  And for those who simply did not want to change.... their are plenty of them on our rolls as well.

[DBMormon]

So, let me get this right.  The truth you know is based on faith in the interpretation you accept?

 

yes, though I also believe I can back up my views with scriptures while I think the other point of view that I named as incorrect can only be backed by a leaders comment here or there but generally not by scripture.

[ERayR]

yes, though I also believe I can back up my views with scriptures while I think the other point of view that I named as incorrect can only be backed by a leaders comment here or there but generally not by scripture.

 

I am sure you believe you are corredt and can back up what you say and probably can in some instances but it is still based on faith in your interpretation. 

[mfbukowski]

We will have to agreeably disagree.  When we look back I don't believe we will see a higher number of LDS (in this life) having achieved exaltation versus people who were not LDS in this life.  I just don't see it.  God's plan is to bring to pass the immortality AND Eternal life of his Children and I don't see him disadvantaging those who did not join the Church either because they didn't have the chance, didn't see it as having more value then their current belief system, or were swayed by critical comments.  And for those who simply did not want to change.... their are plenty of them on our rolls as well.

Well of course that is precisely why we do work for the dead- so this is not news.

[Glenn101]

DBMormon, you have posited some things that the church supposedly teaches that I have never been taught.

 

2. Our church has "all truth" I have never been taught such. I have been taught that it has the truth that will help us attain exaltation, if we live according to that truth. Please provide a reference that says that the LDS Church has "all truth".

 

3. I have never been taught that the LDS church has "all keys". Joseph Smith received "the keys of the Kingdom" from Peter James and John. But Elijah held the keys to the sealing powers to our ancestors. I do not know all what keys are out there but the LDS church through the apostles and prophets hold the keys necessary to our salvation and exaltation.

 

4. We are taught that by being a member of the church, we have a better chance of exaltation than someone who does not accept the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

I can see no doctrine that the church is teaching that is "blatantly false".

 

Your argument about "Does God favor his .2% over the other 99.8?" is a bit less than specious. The missionary work and the work that is being done for those who have passed the mortal portal is evidence that God does not favor anyone, that He is no respecter of persons. Eventually everyone will have the opportunity to hear the fulness of the Gospel and obtain the complete set of ordinances that will open the door to exaltation. Of course, they will still have their agency to choose, whether in this life, or beyond.

The LDS church is not man's church, it is God's church. If you don't believe that, it is your option, your right. It just seems that you and I understand the doctrines of the church a bit differently.

 

Glenn

 

Do NOT question another poster's belief in the church to win a debate.

[Robert F. Smith]

yes, though I also believe I can back up my views with scriptures while I think the other point of view that I named as incorrect can only be backed by a leaders comment here or there but generally not by scripture.

Sounds like the old "heads I win, tails you lose" proposition on what is true and what is false.  And if that sort of double-dealing weren't enough, you seem to be touting some sort of Protestant sola sciptura rule, without however clearly delineating how that Scripture is to be interpreted.  I agree with Pogi that most of what you listed was pretty superficial.  It is also unnecessarily negative.  Any of us might go off the deep end telling everyone (or implying) what should be done,

I recommend humility and a willingness to frankly discuss such matters, without passing instant judgment on who is right and who is wrong.  Lest we assume what has to be proved, to the detriment of all.  Denver Snuffer has lately imagined (with enormous self-assurance) that he has it all figured out.  He doesn't.

[mfbukowski]

DBMormon, you have posited some things that the church supposedly teaches that I have never been taught.

 

2. Our church has "all truth" I have never been taught such. I have been taught that it has the truth that will help us attain exaltation, if we live according to that truth. Please provide a reference that says that the LDS Church has "all truth".

 

3. I have never been taught that the LDS church has "all keys". Joseph Smith received "the keys of the Kingdom" from Peter James and John. But Elijah held the keys to the sealing powers to our ancestors. I do not know all what keys are out there but the LDS church through the apostles and prophets hold the keys necessary to our salvation and exaltation.

 

4. We are taught that by being a member of the church, we have a better chance of exaltation than someone who does not accept the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

I can see no doctrine that the church is teaching that is "blatantly false".

 

Your argument about "Does God favor his .2% over the other 99.8?" is a bit less than specious. The missionary work and the work that is being done for those who have passed the mortal portal is evidence that God does not favor anyone, that He is no respecter of persons. Eventually everyone will have the opportunity to hear the fulness of the Gospel and obtain the complete set of ordinances that will open the door to exaltation. Of course, they will still have their agency to choose, whether in this life, or beyond.

The LDS church is not man's church, it is God's church. If you don't believe that, it is your option, your right. It just seems that you and I understand the doctrines of the church a bit differently.

 

Glenn

Agree completely!

[canard78]

- God's called servants are found in and only in the LDS church

- That our Church has all truth - hence we are the true Church

- That we have all keys

-  We get all excited about hearing we are at 15 million as if we are taking the world by storm.  If you asked most members how fast the Church is growing they would report that it is growing way faster then it actually is.

-  By being a member of the LDS church we have a better chance at salvation.  That by being LDS we are advantaged over our gentile brother and sisters

 

You can debate my take on these but I am more concerned with the question

Is it ok to let people believe false things as long as that keeps them in the faith or does the motive of trying to dispel false teachings and teaching pure truth have more weight even at the expense of losing members form the Lord's Church????

 

I've seen you discuss this before and it's an interesting question. In some ways I see the need to be a members' missionary to help smooth out some of these falsely held perspectives.

 

In doing this I consider the things I was taught 15 years ago as a missionary. Build on common beliefs, build relationships of trust... etc, etc.

 

Alma 18 is a nice reminder of how to go about teaching people based on slightly 'skewed' beliefs. 

 24 And Ammon began to speak unto him with boldness, and said unto him: Believest thou that there is a God?

 

 25 And he answered, and said unto him: I do not know what that meaneth.

 

 26 And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit?

 

 27 And he said, Yea.

 

 

So, to answer your question - yes, I would think it important to help re-educate misconceptions. But I think it would be important to do it as lovingly and gently as one would teach a non-member investigator.

[canard78]

DBMormon, you have posited some things that the church supposedly teaches that I have never been taught.

 

2. Our church has "all truth" I have never been taught such. I have been taught that it has the truth that will help us attain exaltation, if we live according to that truth. Please provide a reference that says that the LDS Church has "all truth".

 

3. I have never been taught that the LDS church has "all keys". Joseph Smith received "the keys of the Kingdom" from Peter James and John. But Elijah held the keys to the sealing powers to our ancestors. I do not know all what keys are out there but the LDS church through the apostles and prophets hold the keys necessary to our salvation and exaltation.

 

4. We are taught that by being a member of the church, we have a better chance of exaltation than someone who does not accept the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

I can see no doctrine that the church is teaching that is "blatantly false".

 

Your argument about "Does God favor his .2% over the other 99.8?" is a bit less than specious. The missionary work and the work that is being done for those who have passed the mortal portal is evidence that God does not favor anyone, that He is no respecter of persons. Eventually everyone will have the opportunity to hear the fulness of the Gospel and obtain the complete set of ordinances that will open the door to exaltation. Of course, they will still have their agency to choose, whether in this life, or beyond.

The LDS church is not man's church, it is God's church. If you don't believe that, it is your option, your right. It just seems that you and I understand the doctrines of the church a bit differently.

 

Glenn

 

I agree with you that none of what DBMormon lists can be justified as official church doctrine. But it is representative of attitudes some people hold.

[DBMormon]

DBMormon, you have posited some things that the church supposedly teaches that I have never been taught.

 

2. Our church has "all truth" I have never been taught such. I have been taught that it has the truth that will help us attain exaltation, if we live according to that truth. Please provide a reference that says that the LDS Church has "all truth".

 

3. I have never been taught that the LDS church has "all keys". Joseph Smith received "the keys of the Kingdom" from Peter James and John. But Elijah held the keys to the sealing powers to our ancestors. I do not know all what keys are out there but the LDS church through the apostles and prophets hold the keys necessary to our salvation and exaltation.

 

4. We are taught that by being a member of the church, we have a better chance of exaltation than someone who does not accept the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

I can see no doctrine that the church is teaching that is "blatantly false".

 

Your argument about "Does God favor his .2% over the other 99.8?" is a bit less than specious. The missionary work and the work that is being done for those who have passed the mortal portal is evidence that God does not favor anyone, that He is no respecter of persons. Eventually everyone will have the opportunity to hear the fulness of the Gospel and obtain the complete set of ordinances that will open the door to exaltation. Of course, they will still have their agency to choose, whether in this life, or beyond.

The LDS church is not man's church, it is God's church. If you don't believe that, it is your option, your right. It just seems that you and I understand the doctrines of the church a bit differently.

 

Glenn

 

 

Glenn no,  I did not state the LDS Church teaches this, but rather the average member holds these views.  I have over and over heard members say that what makes us better is we have all truth, thet the prophet has all keys, that we need to convert our neighbor so that they can have the blessings of salvation.  I have also heard many members poke fun at other churches and their leaders and thinking that only our church has leaders called of God.

 

Glenn, you have on several occasions spoke to me as if I am an unbeliever.  Not sure why you feel a need to make an unjustifiable leap.  

1.) first it is unallowed on this board

2.) 2nd it is untrue

3rd.) It is the easy way out to simply dismiss those you disagree with as apostate

 

I am a believer.  I could pass a polygraph on the temple questions and get a recommend at the end.

So please knock off the dismissive attitude and deal with the points and not me personally.  As Elder Uchtdorf said, some see the differences of another as sin (and other negative connotations) 

Edited October 30, 2013 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

Sounds like the old "heads I win, tails you lose" proposition on what is true and what is false.  And if that sort of double-dealing weren't enough, you seem to be touting some sort of Protestant sola sciptura rule, without however clearly delineating how that Scripture is to be interpreted.  I agree with Pogi that most of what you listed was pretty superficial.  It is also unnecessarily negative.  Any of us might go off the deep end telling everyone (or implying) what should be done,

I recommend humility and a willingness to frankly discuss such matters, without passing instant judgment on who is right and who is wrong.  Lest we assume what has to be proved, to the detriment of all.  Denver Snuffer has lately imagined (with enormous self-assurance) that he has it all figured out.  He doesn't.

 

Would the brethren claim all truth?

Would the brethren claim all keys?

Would they claim no one outside the Church has been called to do God's work?

Would they claim being LDS gives us a better chance at celestial Glory? (This is the only one I am hesitant to guess their answer)

[Stroopwafel]

DBMormon, you have posited some things that the church supposedly teaches that I have never been taught.

 

If I may...

 

 

In the Church we imply many things which are blatantly false.

 

(Emphasize mine)

 

The way I understood it is that the examples given are not necessarily teachings of the Church, but views certain members hold.

 

I would add that these views, no matter how false and away from the teachings and doctrines of the Church, are nonetheless "products" of the latter.

[canard78]

1/ Would the brethren claim all truth?

2/ Would the brethren claim all keys?

3/ Would they claim no one outside the Church has been called to do God's work?

4/ Would they claim being LDS gives us a better chance at celestial Glory? (This is the only one I am hesitant to guess their answer)

1/

Bruce R. McConkie said: “We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past... We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past.” CES Symposium Address, Aug 1978

 

President Uchtdorf encourages us to find peace with this principle: “We simply do not know all things—we can’t see everything. What may seem contradictory now may be perfectly understandable as we search for and receive more trustworthy information. Because we see through a glass darkly, we have to trust the Lord, who sees all things clearly.” (What Is Truth? CES Devotional, Jan 2013)

 

 

2/ Probably, yes. Which do you think are missing? I've never heard them saying we are missing keys.

 

3/ Absolutely not. I've listed many time the dozens of quotes from "the brethren" stating that others outside of the church have been called to do God's work.

 

4/ In this life? Of course not! If any of them taught that I've not heard it and if they did they'd be going against a whole host of doctrine that says otherwise.

[CV75]

Is it ok to let people believe false things as long as that keeps them in the faith or does the motive of trying to dispel false teachings and teaching pure truth have more weight even at the expense of losing members form the Lord's Church????

The first questions you pose are easily answered, but best by one who is using the Holy Ghost in answering them. Regarding this last question:

 

The Lord would have His servants continually teach His children true principles by precept and by example and honor their agency to live by them or not. All of God’s children minimally have access to the Light of Christ; all may have access to the power of the Holy Ghost; and LDS have the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which each may opt to magnify or not

 

Of course it is not OK to let people believe false things in lieu of true things when you have the opportunity to let them believe the truth.

 

Yet it might be OK to let them believe some false things as long as they believe the essential true things as well—this depends on the directive from the Spirit, though we may feel motivated by such principles as D&C 58:27-28 (“Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness; For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.”), but even this should be ratified by the Holy Spirit at some point. The Spirit knows best who would be made to stumble or “run faster than he has strength” because of our own zeal toward getting them to believe as we do, especially in non-essential matters. The Spirit knows what is essential.

 

The motive to dispel false teaching should never outpace the motive to teach pure truth (the essentials). Motives aside, it is the actual work that really counts since that is how we reach people’s hearts and minds and invite them to believe one thing or another.

 

When it comes to staying in the Church, I think the influence of what people believe about the Church is weaker than how they practice their internal spiritual promptings (whether that comes by the Light of Christ, the power of the Spirit, of the Gift of the Holy Ghost).

[Kevin Christensen]

I discussed these issues, such as what "true and living" means in D&C 1, in my recent Interpreter review.

 

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/sophic-box-and-mantic-vista-a-review-of-deconstructing-mormonism/

 

FWIW

 

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[DBMormon]

1/

 

2/ Probably, yes. Which do you think are missing? I've never heard them saying we are missing keys.

 

3/ Absolutely not. I've listed many time the dozens of quotes from "the brethren" stating that others outside of the church have been called to do God's work.

 

4/ In this life? Of course not! If any of them taught that I've not heard it and if they did they'd be going against a whole host of doctrine that says otherwise.

 

Brigham Young said that there were keys yet to be restored including but not limited to the keys of the resurrection.

[jkwilliams]

Depends on what you mean by "true." For some people, "true" means demonstrably "in accordance with the actual state of affairs" or "conformable to an essential reality." For others, it means "ideal" or "legitimate," which is a much more subjective matter. Believers in the former tend to be folks who need the Nephites to have existed; believers in the latter gravitate more towards a narrative that espouses beliefs and practices that exalt people, whatever the "facts" of the narrative.

 

Me, I lean more toward the latter, such that I no longer ascribe to beliefs that, regardless of "essential reality," made me unhappy. That was more important to me than accepting that the Nephites almost certainly did not exist.