Jacob 2

[EllenMaksoud]

Verse 30 from Jacob 2 is the qualifier that indicates the Lord, when it suits His purposes, may at some future time command His people to once again practice plural marriage. This verse indicates the primary purpose of polygamy is to raise up righteous see unto the Lord. It says:

"For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, RAISE UP SEED UNTO ME, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." (Jacob 2:30)

So at some date future to the timeframe of Jacob 2, if the Lord desires to raise up righteous seed unto to himself, He will revive the practice of polygamy; otherwise the law of strictest monogamy is in force. Why all the doubt and confusion?

There is no doubt about Mormonism, just polygamy. And there is no real resistance from me, just questions. I will never witness it directly as a Mormon. And, actually as an Investigator, I secretly believed it still went on, though I am more doubtful of it now days.  I am respectful of the fact that some dissemble or flatly refuse to discuss certain issues. The language I hear used concerning polygamy, Celestial Marriage and certain aspects of the Temple convinces me that there are certain circumstances ...

 

I can say for certain, that there are examples of it where it has been perverted, with up to 80 wives, and a girl marrying a man 6 times her age. Heavenly Father would have to strike me with his rod of iron to convince me on that marriage.  In the Middle East, well, the horror stories are true.

 

So, to convince me that Heavenly Father drove that decision, were that even necessary, all the wives, no more than 4, would have to support it, and there could be no abuse or beating of any kind.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I actually think that using verse 30 as justification is pretty lame.

 

One of the things that was of comfort to me when I was an investigator was that I could easily find supporting scripture in the KJV for Mormon ideas. I can not find supporting scripture in 2 Samuel 11 or subsequent books.  I am not privy to inspiration that would change my mind. And, I am directly acquainted with situations where polygamy was used to the detriment of the wives.  With seven billion people on Earth, it is hard to convince me that we need more "seed".  Of course it is not a requirement that Heavenly Father convinces me of a thing. He will do his will.

So lets look at it.

 

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up ^aseed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

 

So God says that to raise up seed unto him, he will command it (it is polygamy btw) otherwise they shall harken unto these things. Those things being that polygamy is an abomintation. So you think that is a lame "excuse". Ok. I guess we will just agree to disagree.

[EllenMaksoud]

So lets look at it.

 

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up ^aseed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

 

So God says that to raise up seed unto him, he will command it (it is polygamy btw) otherwise they shall harken unto these things. Those things being that polygamy is an abomintation. So you think that is a lame "excuse". Ok. I guess we will just agree to disagree.

Were I to be on board with the idea, were that even necessary,  it would take some pretty profound convincing.  And I'm open to it. At 66, I am not even necessary to the equation.

Edited October 21, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[Glenn101]

Unless you can show me a specific verse that says that polygamy applied in the 1830's, I will say that anyone appropriating onto himself the right of polygamy based upon the verses shown in D&C 132:39 is quite a stretch.

 

I will not face polygamy in this life, so the discussion is mute. I do not judge anyone else for their actions, as I am not the representative of God. My only caveat would be that if any abuse occurs because of Polygamy, let that man be accursed.

 

God does give different commands to people in different ages and situations. We are not living the Mosaic Law now, for example. Nor or we practicing polygamy.

 

I referenced verse 39, not as a justification for people practicing polygamty in the 1830's, 40's, 50's, etc. but as cooroberation of the verse in the 1 Kings where it says that David, with all his wives and concubines, only erred in the case of Bathsheba and Uriah the Hittite. I used the Bible to show that God had allowed polygamy and even commanded it in Biblical times. But those commandments to Abraham, Jacob/Israel, David, etc. were not for our times. The command to the Nephites to abstain from polygamy was not for our times, although the principle of at being acceptable only when God commands it is of a general application.

 

Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants is the commandments we have been given for our times. Along with the Official Declaration Number 1 where the Lord commands that the church cease the practice, which it the state we are in today. As I said, that is how we got from Jacob 2 to here.

 

As you noted, the question is moot at this time because we do not practice it now. But it is still a Hot Button Topic, no???

 

Glenn

Edited October 21, 2013 by Glenn101

[EllenMaksoud]

God does give different commands to people in different ages and situations. We are not living the Mosaic Law now, for example. Nor or we practicing polygamy.

 

I referenced verse 39, not as a justification for people practicing polygamty in the 1830's, 40's, 50's, etc. but as cooroberation of the verse in the 1 Kings where it says that David, with all his wives and concubines, only erred in the case of Bathsheba and Uriah the Hittite. I used the Bible to show that God had allowed polygamy and even commanded it in Biblical times. But those commandments to Abraham, Jacob/Israel, David, etc. were not for our times. The command to the Nephites to abstain from polygamy was not for our times, although the principle of at being acceptable only when God commands it is of a general application.

 

Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants is the commandments we have been given for our times. Along with the Official Declaration Number 1 where the Lord commands that the church cease the practice, which it the state we are in today. As I said, that is how we got from Jacob 2 to here.

 

As you noted, the question is moot at this time because we do not practice it now. But it is still a Hot Button Topic, no???

 

Glenn

I had not actually intended to start yet another thread on "P" but someone badgered me about a passing reference and I took the bait.   I do not have issue with "P" per say, only those who abuse others while using it as an excuse.   As an Investigator, I actually thought I would somehow participate in sort of a communal or "P", household. That did not come to pass.

[Calm]

With seven billion people on Earth, it is hard to convince me that we need more "seed".  

What about a righteous and faithful "seed"/people?

[EllenMaksoud]

What about a righteous and faithful "seed"/people?

Well, on that point, I have to concede.

[BCSpace]

With seven billion people on Earth, it is hard to convince me that we need more "seed".  

What about a righteous and faithful "seed"/people?

 

I tend to go with that.  However, in the 2 Samuel 12 example, all David had to do was ask if he had wanted more.  Can then plural marriage also be a reward of some kind?

 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Jacob 2 shows that the Lord authorizes plural marriage from time to time.

And...the dangers of doing it without God's command.

[Tacenda]

And...the dangers of doing it without God's command.

Yes, danger of putting women in bondage, slavery, abuse and her children in danger of those things also. So many stories of this exist in polygamy, past and present. The God I believe in may have allowed (agency), but never commanded it, and the closest he gets is when he wanted the freshly widowed woman to be taken care of. That's it, unless we believe, which everyone mostly does, in the Jacob passage. But it's not in the bible to raise up seed. If it is I'd like to know where. Edited October 22, 2013 by Tacenda

[EllenMaksoud]

I tend to go with that.  However, in the 2 Samuel 12 example, all David had to do was ask if he had wanted more.  Can then plural marriage also be a reward of some kind?

 

I can not know or predict the Mind of God.   And, I think I have adequately demonstrated that I am clueless on the matter.

[teddyaware]

Yes, danger of putting women in bondage, slavery, abuse and her children in danger of those things also. So many stories of this exist in polygamy, past and present. The God I believe in may have allowed (agency), but never commanded it, and the closest he gets is when he wanted the freshly widowed woman to be taken care of. That's it, unless we believe, which everyone mostly does, in the Jacob passage. But it's not in the bible to raise up seed. If it is I'd like to know where.

I ask the following question respectfully; and I only ask said question because, given the above, I'm simply curious to know how far an LDS closet doubter might be willing to go in the reevaluation or revision of the narrative of the scriptures concerning the nature of God. Here's the question: Do you believe the God you believe in would command His people to enter the promised land of Canaan with a divine decree to take up the sword and by violence take the lives of every single man, woman and child?

Edited October 22, 2013 by teddyaware

[Tacenda]

I ask the following question respectfully; and I only ask said question because, given the above, I'm simply curious to know how far an LDS closet doubter might be willing to go in the reevaluation or revision of the narrative of the scriptures concerning the nature of God. Here's the question: Do you believe the God you believe in would command His people to enter the promised land of Canaan with a divine decree to take up the sword and by violence take the lives of every single man, woman and child?

I don't believe he commanded it, and if it was done by prophesy, the prophet isn't perfect and may have prophesied the message wrong.

[teddyaware]

I don't believe he commanded it, and if it was done by prophesy, the prophet isn't perfect and may have prophesied the message wrong.

Thanks for your candid answer. A quick follow-up question: Do you believe at the time of the Saviour's death God destroyed all of the Nephite cities that the Book of Mormon narrative claims He destroyed?

Edited October 22, 2013 by teddyaware

[Calm]

Yes, danger of putting women in bondage, slavery, abuse and her children in danger of those things also. So many stories of this exist in polygamy, past and present.re.

And how was it different for monogamy?

[Tacenda]

And how was it different for monogamy?

The standouts are...children bond with their father, because he lives with them and nowhere else. And he knows them by name, I remember reading that BY didn't know his own little boy walking down the street or something like that. The men that marry so many wives don't know their children. Wife isn't wondering if their husband loves other women more, doesn't have to lie in bed alone at night while her husband is with someone else. Time with the man she loves. Husband is stressed out with all the responsibilities of his wives and children, maybe shuts down. More income to put food on the table, no scrounging in fast food dumpsters, this really happens, think Kingston. Less stress means, less acting out frustration and therefore abuse occuring. So much more, I'm surprised you asked.

[sheilauk]

The standouts are...children bond with their father, because he lives with them and nowhere else. And he knows them by name, I remember reading that BY didn't know his own little boy walking down the street or something like that. The men that marry so many wives don't know their children. Wife isn't wondering if their husband loves other women more, doesn't have to lie in bed alone at night while her husband is with someone else. Time with the man she loves. Husband is stressed out with all the responsibilities of his wives and children, maybe shuts down. More income to put food on the table, no scrounging in fast food dumpsters, this really happens, think Kingston. Less stress means, less acting out frustration and therefore abuse occuring. So much more, I'm surprised you asked.

you are, of course, comparing a good, content and happy monogamous marriage with unhappy polygamous marriages.  Can you say that there were no happy, content and good polygamous matches?  Have you questioned every person involved in such a marraige or read their journals to find that no one was happy, all husbands failed to bond with their children and didn't know who they were etc.?  In the profession I'm in, I can give you examples of dozens of failed monogamous marriages that have many of the same problems, including frustration and abuse, and I can tell you of men who do not recognise their children because the relationship they had with the mother was so fleeting they didn't even live together.  These things happen because people are so very imperfect.  Do they happen more in polygamous relationships?  Are all such relationships always more stressful?  If you can prove that, you may have some justification. 

[jana at jade house]

I suspect in monogamy there are children who aren't bonded with their fathers;  whose fathers travel a lot or spend 60 hours a week at work.  Number of wives do not predict a father's closeness to children. Communication and dedication do.  A plural wife should not agree to the covenant if she is thinking of marriage as a competition in any way, or a contest in humiliation.  Monogamous wives stare at the dark ceiling and mourn their loneliness as well.  Communication and dedication works.  Additional family members put no more stress on a polygamous man than they do a monogamous man.  A large family is a large family.  Having more adults on board to make decisions seems like the only difference there.  Believe you me, any  man can be horribly abusive and neglectful.   

 

The really weird thing is : I cannot even imagine being a plural wife to many of the male members of my unit. Mostly because they do not wear their covenants and promises well to the wife they have.  But I can imagine sharing my gifted, patient, caring Himself with a carefully chosen sister wife.  But no one would have him because he is a confirmed stalwart  totally secular humanist, even though he is more temple ready that many TBM.

 

So, Tacenda, be aware that your arguments say more about how your view on men than how a polygamous marriage might be. Just because you read something somewhere sometime does not mean it is a general fact.  

[Tacenda]

Sheilauk and Jana, the big difference is the choice to live polygamy. If it isn't a choice and one is forced to live it for religious purposes. Those are the ones I'm talking about via feelings of bondage and slavery. The polygamy you are talking about where it is a choice even when dictated by religion but still a choice, can prove otherwise. But thousands are not like you say, they are told they live it or be damned. The teen girls married to older men, they are the true slaves, to get out of it they have to run away, which usually gets them brought back home and then a horrible beating. You apparently haven't seen this side. Which btw, I could possibly live it if I didn't love my husband so much. More company, while he's playing golf. And some help around the house, or babysitting other wives kids, ok take that back, changed mind! But there are situations that can work, I admit, but you'd have to show me more than the two or three I know about. If it were such a good thing, you'd have "In Sacred Loneliness" and "Mormon Enigma" put back on the shelves at the Deseret Bookstore. ETA: And don't tell me they were taken off so that members won't get the idea to live it again. This was fairly recent, and they weren't faith promoting, IMO.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Tacenda

[EllenMaksoud]

Sheilauk and Jana, the big difference is the choice to live polygamy. If it isn't a choice and one is forced to live it for religious purposes. Those are the ones I'm talking about via feelings of bondage and slavery. The polygamy you are talking about where it is a choice even when dictated by religion but still a choice, can prove otherwise. But thousands are not like you say, they are told they live it or be damned. The teen girls married to older men, they are the true slaves, to get out of it they have to run away, which usually gets them brought back home and then a horrible beating. You apparently haven't seen this side. Which btw, I could possibly live it if I didn't love my husband so much. More company, while he's playing golf. And some help around the house, or babysitting other wives kids, ok take that back, changed mind! But there are situations that can work, I admit, but you'd have to show me more than the two or three I know about. If it were such a good thing, you'd have "In Sacred Loneliness" and "Mormon Enigma" put back on the shelves at the Deseret Bookstore. ETA: And don't tell me they were taken off so that members won't get the idea to live it again. This was fairly recent, and they weren't faith promoting, IMO.

In reading all these threads, I discover that possibly I am less resistant to polygamy because the man who raised me was a vicious animal, and during my adult life I did not meet many good men. So, from one point of view, in a polygamous marriage, I could have my children, and some companionship without having to be around a man too much. I was one of 7 and every one of us left as soon as we could. Mother eventually divorced him, saying that she just stayed until we were gone.

[thesometimesaint]

Were I to be on board with the idea, were that even necessary,  it would take some pretty profound convincing.  And I'm open to it. At 66, I am not even necessary to the equation.

 

At 62 I'm just as glad that I don't have to practice polygamy in this life. Whatever God requires of me in the next I'll wait until then.

[halconero]

God has commanded far more difficult, trying and seemingly/actually destructive things, both in the Book of Mormon and the Bible. If we abandon the idea that he could command such then we must also abandon large portions of scripture.

 

Does killing have the potential to be abused, twisted and evil? 

 

Can consecration become corrupted, and turned away from its original intent?

 

How about stealing? Can it be used for good, righteous purposes? 

 

Or lying? Have the purposes of God been fulfilled through such an act?

 

By drawing absolutes, lines and borders around what God can or cannot do we create a being hedged in by our own mortal, moral compass. Such an act or belief has the potential to strip Deity of his foresight, power and understanding. He becomes the servant of our will instead of the potential master of ours.

 

Does this mean we need to accept every word coming from the prophets of God? No. 

 

Does this mean we should accept the possibility of divine command coming from the prophets of God? Yes.

[BCSpace]

So many stories of this exist in polygamy, past and present.re.

 

Yes, but there also is an anti Mormon narrative that is baseless.  Once you cut through that, and it's difficult to do because the enemies of the Church have laid down a very complex and comprehensive web, one sees that JS wasn't a womanizer, didn't sleep with 14 year-old girls, didn't practice polyandry, and most sealings weren't even accompanied by an actual marital relationship (hence no polyandry).

 

Having said that, plural marriage is a Biblical doctrine and the LDS Church, being the restored Church, does have a plural marriage doctrine and does currently practice plural sealings.  Abuse, misuse in plural marriage isn't intrinsic to it.

Edited October 22, 2013 by BCSpace

[sheilauk]

Sheilauk and Jana, the big difference is the choice to live polygamy. If it isn't a choice and one is forced to live it for religious purposes. Those are the ones I'm talking about via feelings of bondage and slavery. The polygamy you are talking about where it is a choice even when dictated by religion but still a choice, can prove otherwise. But thousands are not like you say, they are told they live it or be damned. The teen girls married to older men, they are the true slaves, to get out of it they have to run away, which usually gets them brought back home and then a horrible beating. You apparently haven't seen this side. Which btw, I could possibly live it if I didn't love my husband so much. More company, while he's playing golf. And some help around the house, or babysitting other wives kids, ok take that back, changed mind! But there are situations that can work, I admit, but you'd have to show me more than the two or three I know about. If it were such a good thing, you'd have "In Sacred Loneliness" and "Mormon Enigma" put back on the shelves at the Deseret Bookstore. ETA: And don't tell me they were taken off so that members won't get the idea to live it again. This was fairly recent, and they weren't faith promoting, IMO.

Don't assume what I have or haven't seen.  Of course I've seen/heard/read about reports of abusive polygamous groups in the USA and in many other parts of the world.  I've met women who've escaped a variety of abusive marriages including where there was polygamy.  I'm well aware of how bad things can get between people.

 

Being forced to do anything, whether for religious reasons or not, by another person/people is wrong.  God gave us agency for a reason.  He gives us a commandment, we can choose whether or not we live it and others should not force us (with the possible exception of parents and children).  Again, just because a man abuses his position, does not make an argument against polygamy.  In the UK, we have a significant problem with forced marriages in the Asian population and these are monogamous marriages.  Forced marriage is wrong.  Do others have influence over us?  Of course and I'm well aware of the issues you have raised previously about how you feel some of Joseph Smith's wives were coerced.  That is still not an argument against polygamy per se.  It may be that our desires mean that we are not able to live polygamy very well or without abuse because people are imperfect, make mistakes, can be horrible to each other and even good men can go wrong and it may be that polygamy has a negative effect on people.  But that is a very different argument from saying polygamy in and off itself is wrong or cannot be commanded by God.  As for the books, I have no idea why they were taken off, but it doesn't have to be because they thought polygamy isn't a good thing.  Maybe it was because no one was buying them.  It isn't always a conspiracy.

[Tacenda]

Sheilauk do you know of any scripture in the bible that it is commanded to live it to raise seed or live it or be damned or live it for exaltation, all things that have been put forth in our religion at one time? I'd like something biblical please.