EllenMaksoud Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 I already know my opinion of this. So how did we get from there to Polygamy? Actually there is a parallel situation in the Qur'an, but with different results. So, GG, let the fun begin.
BCSpace Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 Jacob 2 shows that the Lord authorizes plural marriage from time to time. 1
Garden Girl Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 I already know my opinion of this. So how did we get from there to Polygamy? Actually there is a parallel situation in the Qur'an, but with different results. So, GG, let the fun begin. Let the fun begin? I agree with BC... that's my opinion of Jacob 2... period... others may have differing opinions. That's up to them. I see no reason for me personally to say any more than I've expressed... GG
Glenn101 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 I already know my opinion of this. So how did we get from there to Polygamy? Actually there is a parallel situation in the Qur'an, but with different results. So, GG, let the fun begin. It seems that the command of not having more than one wife was to the Nephites. God allowed polgamy and in some cases required it in the Old Testament. In 2 Samuel 12 Nathan the prophet is taking King David to task for adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of Uriah, the Hittite. In verse 8, Nathan says " And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things." Differing times, differing circumstances, differing commands. I myself, don't think it would be fun. Glenn
EllenMaksoud Posted October 21, 2013 Author Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) Let the fun begin? I agree with BC... that's my opinion of Jacob 2... period... others may have differing opinions. That's up to them. I see no reason for me personally to say any more than I've expressed... GGSo, you baited me? The contents of Jacob 2 are clear. My only question would be: how did we get to what happened? So, what is the BC? Edited October 21, 2013 by EllenMaksoud
BCSpace Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 My only question would be: how did we get to what happened? You mean how did Joseph Smith get to the doctrine of plural marriage? So, what is the BC? Me.
Freedom Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 What do you mean by 'how did we get to what happened'?
Garden Girl Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 So, you baited me? The contents of Jacob 2 are clear. My only question would be: how did we get to what happened? So, what is the BC? And how did I bait you? I've stated my opinion... which I think is supported by Jacob 2. The poster is BCSpace (Post #2 above) who I said I agreed with...I also agree with Glen101 above...It is rare that I bother to discuss polygamy, except briefly... it just isn't that important to me... I don't foresee the Lord commanding us to live polygamy in these last days... nor do I expect to live it beyond the veil. GG 1
EllenMaksoud Posted October 21, 2013 Author Posted October 21, 2013 Jacob 2 shows that the Lord authorizes plural marriage from time to time.So in Jacob 2:27 only one wife is authorized. 2:24, The Lord said such practice was an abomination to him. 2:30 does not give permission for more wives. The parallel situation I mentioned in the Qur'an is thus. I will loosely paraphrase. Allah SWT (God) says to Muhammad PBUH that a man must have only one wife. Then later on he says that if a man is too weak and having only one wife is too painful, then he can have 3-4. So, clearly God's preference is that man have one wife. It is clear to me that certain groups practice it. That is none of my concern.
EllenMaksoud Posted October 21, 2013 Author Posted October 21, 2013 It seems that the command of not having more than one wife was to the Nephites. God allowed polgamy and in some cases required it in the Old Testament. In 2 Samuel 12 Nathan the prophet is taking King David to task for adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of Uriah, the Hittite. In verse 8, Nathan says " And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things." Differing times, differing circumstances, differing commands. I myself, don't think it would be fun. GlennI do not agree with your assessment.
BCSpace Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 2:30 does not give permission for more wives. Unless God authorizes, sure. So, clearly God's preference is that man have one wife. I don't agree that one can come to this conclusion based on LDS doctrine. While some have so speculated, the facts remain that the LDS Church has not apologized for, disavowed, or unsealed any previous plural marriages for that purpose. In addition, while it is more restrictive than in the past, an LDS man today may still be sealed to more than one woman. It all points to plural marriage in the eternities and not the opposite. Now if you had said: "God's preference now is that a man have one wife in this life." I would agree that can be supported by doctrine.
Glenn101 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 I do not agree with your assessment. You don't agree with the differing times, etc. or the not being fun part??? How would you then to explain how King David could have had Saul's wives given to him by the Lord???Can you also explain how how polygamy was not mandated by the Lord if a man were married and his brother died childless? Deuteronomy 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her.6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel. I had not thought of this before, but how does Jacob 2 conflict with that edict??? In Alma 25, verse 15, we are told explicitly that the Nephites kept the Law of Moses, of which the "Levirate marriage" principle was a part. Glenn
EllenMaksoud Posted October 21, 2013 Author Posted October 21, 2013 You don't agree with the differing times, etc. or the not being fun part??? How would you then to explain how King David could have had Saul's wives given to him by the Lord???Can you also explain how how polygamy was not mandated by the Lord if a man were married and his brother died childless? Deuteronomy 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her.6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel. I had not thought of this before, but how does Jacob 2 conflict with that edict??? In Alma 25, verse 15, we are told explicitly that the Nephites kept the Law of Moses, of which the "Levirate marriage" principle was a part. GlennJacob 2:27 is very clear, and needs no interpretation. I can see its use as welfare or humanitarian care. To have more than one wife because you just want to is another matter. They were Saul's wives and were put into Davids care to prevent their abandonment and starving, not because Heavenly Father wanted Polygamy.
Glenn101 Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) Jacob 2:27 is very clear, and needs no interpretation. I can see its use as welfare or humanitarian care. To have more than one wife because you just want to is another matter. They were Saul's wives and were put into Davids care to prevent their abandonment and starving, not because Heavenly Father wanted Polygamy. Yes, it is very clear, and it was given to the Nephites. If Heavenly Father had not wanted David to have those women as wives he could very easily have told David to see that they were taken care of. If you will recall, David married several other women, including Abigail the former wife of Nabal, and Michel, one of Saul's daughters. Again, the Lord never said aught against David for having those wives. In 1 Kings 15:5 we are told that "David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." This last was reiterated in the D&C Section 132, verse 39, with the added information that David's wives were given unto him by Nathan the prophet. And Section 132 is how we got here. It was a revelation and a command from the Lord. So, there are several reasons that God can require polygamy. One is to raise up seed. That is a very probable reason in the case of Abraham and Jacob/Israel. Another, is, as you suggested, maybe to provide care for some of the women, although that reason is not specifically noted. Another is to provide a continuation of a patriarchal line. Also, as part of the restitution of all things. Glenn Edited October 21, 2013 by Glenn101
EllenMaksoud Posted October 21, 2013 Author Posted October 21, 2013 Yes, it is very clear, and it was given to the Nephites. If Heavenly Father had not wanted David to have those women as wives he could very easily have told David to see that they were taken care of. If you will recall, David married several other women, including Abigail the former wife of Nabal, and Michel, one of Saul's daughters. Again, the Lord never said aught against David for having those wives. In 1 Kings 15:5 we are told that "David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." This last was reiterated in the D&C Section 132, verse 39, with the added information that David's wives were given unto him by Nathan the prophet. And Section 132 is how we got here. It was a revelation and a command from the Lord. So, there are several reasons that God can require polygamy. One is to raise up seed. That is a very probable reason in the case of Abraham and Jacob/Israel. Another, is, as you suggested, maybe to provide care for some of the women, although that reason is not specifically noted. Another is to provide a continuation of a patriarchal line. Also, as part of the restitution of all things. GlennUnless you can show me a specific verse that says that polygamy applied in the 1830's, I will say that anyone appropriating onto himself the right of polygamy based upon the verses shown in D&C 132:39 is quite a stretch. I will not face polygamy in this life, so the discussion is mute. I do not judge anyone else for their actions, as I am not the representative of God. My only caveat would be that if any abuse occurs because of Polygamy, let that man be accursed.
cdowis Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) I addressed this in my thread on "Hyperbole". The Nephites were practicing polygamy based their own interpretation of the scriptures. "If Solomon practiced it, why not me." Jacob used hyperbole to reject this interpretation ("it was an abomination") but clarified that it was permissable under the direct guidance and authority of the Lord. Edited October 21, 2013 by cdowis
jana at jade house Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) I do understand and agree with polygyny if authorized and blessed by God; at least from the principle or posterity, population and spiritual prosperity. Of course, living it would be a challenge. Most of the laws and covenants are a challenge to humans in one way or another. If modern, over sexualized, sensation seeking commentators would get their minds out of the gutter and treat polyandry as an honorable partnership to raise up families unto the Lord, rational reasonable discussions of polygyny might happen. I do not agree that Prophet Joseph was in error, On the other hand, polyandry seems unneccessary to the building up of the kingdom with respect to providing earthly bodies for awaiting spirits. I suspect I am in the minority of practicing female Saints who think this way, but for me, a sister wife would be a blessing. Edited October 21, 2013 by jana at jade house 2
thesometimesaint Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 I already know my opinion of this. So how did we get from there to Polygamy? Actually there is a parallel situation in the Qur'an, but with different results. So, GG, let the fun begin. Monogamy is the default position of the Church, unless, until God commands otherwise. 1
teddyaware Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) I already know my opinion of this. So how did we get from there to Polygamy? Actually there is a parallel situation in the Qur'an, but with different results. So, GG, let the fun begin. Verse 30 from Jacob 2 is the qualifier that indicates the Lord, when it suits His purposes, may at some future time command His people to once again practice plural marriage. This verse indicates the primary purpose of polygamy is to raise up righteous see unto the Lord. It says: "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, RAISE UP SEED UNTO ME, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." (Jacob 2:30) So at some date future to the timeframe of Jacob 2, if the Lord desires to raise up righteous seed unto to himself, He will revive the practice of polygamy; otherwise the law of strictest monogamy is in force. Why all the doubt and confusion? Edited October 21, 2013 by teddyaware 3
JLHPROF Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) Let's make this simple by actually reading the applicable verses: 24 Behold, David and aSolomon truly had many bwives and concubines, which thing was cabominable before me, saith the Lord. The most troublesome verse, but we know wherein David & Solomon actually committed abominations - having wives and concubines that the Lord didn't authorize, such as killing off Uriah to get Bathsheba or marrying "foreign wives". 25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a arighteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have save it be bone cwife; and concubines he shall have none;28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the achastity of women. And bwhoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or acursed be the land for their sakes. Under the Aaronic law of the Nephites and Lamanites, and at this time on the Earth the Lord said NO to living plural marriage. Pretty clear. 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up aseed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things. The qualifier, exception, etc. Whe the Lord says it's ok as He did to Joseph Smith in the 1840s, then it's ok, and can even be required. 31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and aabominations of their bhusbands.32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit awhoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts. The ignored verses on the subject - the #1 reason for revoking plural marriage is wicked men who live it badly and treat their wives badly. God doesn't allow sacred practices to be perverted or misused for very long before revoking them. Edited October 21, 2013 by JLHPROF 3
volgadon Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 I addressed this in my thread on "Hyperbole". A: The Nephites were practicing polygamy based their own interpretation of the scriptures. "If Solomon practiced it, why not me." B: Jacob used hyperbole to reject this interpretation ("it was an abomination") but clarified that it was permissable under the direct guidance and authority of the Lord. Neither A nor B are hyperbole. 1
volgadon Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 And how did I bait you? GG I can only see you baiting Valnetinus in regards to sports. =) 3
volgadon Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 As others have noted, verse 30 is crucial to understanding the chapter. 2
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 21, 2013 Posted October 21, 2013 As others have noted, verse 30 is crucial to understanding the chapter.WE should review what verse 30 actually says.
EllenMaksoud Posted October 21, 2013 Author Posted October 21, 2013 WE should review what verse 30 actually says.I actually think that using verse 30 as justification is pretty lame. One of the things that was of comfort to me when I was an investigator was that I could easily find supporting scripture in the KJV for Mormon ideas. I can not find supporting scripture in 2 Samuel 11 or subsequent books. I am not privy to inspiration that would change my mind. And, I am directly acquainted with situations where polygamy was used to the detriment of the wives. With seven billion people on Earth, it is hard to convince me that we need more "seed". Of course it is not a requirement that Heavenly Father convinces me of a thing. He will do his will.
Recommended Posts