Stone holm Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 So what about the animals. If they are born a flea do they always remain a flea? And where do fleas wind up in the afterlife?
Calm Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 (edited) Speculation alert: I have a friend who is a geologist and he is the first I heard this idea from...we often speak of the earth as having a spirit, if so, it is a living being, but perhaps we are not just talking about the (what looks to us as) nonliving aspects of earth, but also many of what we see as individual creatures. If one were to go into a human being and look at various cells within her, then one would find some that appear to be independent and perhaps even self-sufficient 'residents' that are actually integral parts of the process of being a human (bacteria in our digestive systems for example). If one looks on grass and weeds and such as skin, trees and other plants as analogous to hair and insects as part of the digestive and immune system of earth (or whatever comparisons you want to make, one can take this analogy way too far) and include some of the more simple animals in this category and only considered more advanced animals as potentially having their own spirits, one can then conclude that when the earth is resurrected, it may dispense with some of the aspects that are no longer needed as is speculated that we will no longer have blood in our veins, but light or some such thing. Those things that make no sense in an eternal scheme such as dangerous viruses and bacteria, insects that live by causing or off of decomposition or are parasites, etc. etc. can be classified as belonging solely to the mortal, fallen state of the world and not being resurrected along with other aspects of the earth when it becomes glorified. In such speculation all other beings that have spirits of their own and are not part of the earth would go through purification and resurrection just as men will. Edited August 18, 2013 by calmoriah
Duncan Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 In Moroni 10:33 it says that heaven is "without spot" sorry 1
Buzzard Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 In Moroni 10:33 it says that heaven is "without spot" sorryWorst joke of the day award. My humbe speculation is that we will be able to ressurect any animals we wish to have with us. JS said he wanted his horse with him in heaven, lots of pet owners would want to be surrounded by their animals, but I sure hope mosquitos don't all get ressurected.
Duncan Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 (edited) Worst joke of the day award. My humbe speculation is that we will be able to ressurect any animals we wish to have with us. JS said he wanted his horse with him in heaven, lots of pet owners would want to be surrounded by their animals, but I sure hope mosquitos don't all get ressurected. I have so many people to thank for this award! my family, my manager, my fans, my teachers, Sue and Stu who allowed me to perform for the first time at their Rent-An-Alpaca store and everyone who believed in me along the way! Edited August 18, 2013 by Duncan 1
Calm Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 I have so many people to thank for this award! my family, my manager, my fans, my teachers, Sue and Stu who allowed me to perform for the first time at their Rent-An-Alpaca store and everyone who believed in me along the way!
halconero Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 The scriptures mention animals in heaven.Here's something to ponder, did Christ suffer the pains and afflictions of organisms besides humanity?
Robert F. Smith Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 The pertinent source in the LDS Canon on this question is Moses 3, which is the nexus between the two halves of Creation - familiar to us in Gen 1 & 2.Moses 3:5 declares that God "created all things, . . spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the Earth. . . . for in heaven created I them" (it goes on to "flesh" out this scenario in the following verses).See also Moses 6:51, God "made the world, and men before they were in the flesh."This point is generalized further in D&C 29:31-34. In his The Seer, Orson Pratt therefore argued that animals had spirits and would be resurrected (they don't need an Atonement, because they cannot sin). Whether that means that every paramecium and virus will be resurrected (and glorified?) I won't speculate, but it is an interesting concept.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 (edited) Halconero said:`The scriptures mention animals in heaven. Where? Here's something to ponder, did Christ suffer the pains and afflictions of organisms besides humanity?The organisms and children all have something in common: They are innocent and do not need Christ's saving power. Edited August 18, 2013 by Robert F. Smith
Calm Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 Maybe he is thinking of this: 2 Q. What are we to understand by the four beasts, spoken of in the same verse?A. They are figurative expressions, used by the Revelator, John, in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man, and of beasts, and of creeping things, and of the fowls of the air; that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created. 3 Q. Are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders?A. They are limited to four individual beasts, which were shown to John, to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined order or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity. http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/77.2-3?lang=eng#1
Storm Rider Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 I had a dog that will certainly be in the Celestial Kingdom; he was better than the vast majority of human beings I have met and much better than I will ever be. I suspect that there are far more dogs than humans that are deserving of such glory. No cats, very few and far between; if they can retrieve a ball then there may be a chance...just sayin.
Stone holm Posted August 18, 2013 Author Posted August 18, 2013 I expected more deep ecologists to come to the defence of fleas. Of course if animals can reason, then I would expect that many might come to the conclusion that the most callous and dangerous parasite on Earth is man.
strappinglad Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 Bacteria and viruses are filling the measure of their creation and doing it very well. Would that we humans were so focused.
Questing Beast Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 Life is "God" manifesting, micro to macro. We are somewhere in between, along with all the other sentient species, having far more in common with each other than there are differences. The singular difference we "know" is our sapience, our imaginative thought which is unique in the world of humans, again, so far as we "know". The simplest way to believe in that difference is to pin identity in the eternities on possession of a "soul". All living things that are "soulless" do not possess ID as immortal creatures. The "life" in them is sort of recyclable, resulting in a residual "genetic memory" or what we call "instinct" that is thoughtless and more or less pre-programmed. Our species possesses this trait too, but instead of being dominant it is residual and submissive to our capacity for conscious, imaginative thought, our "sapience", which we believe is akin to how "God" thinks about existence....
thesometimesaint Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 I don't know how far down the food chain, or how far back, the Resurrection goes. Myself; I have no desire to be with a living T-Rex not even the friendly, purple kind.
CV75 Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 So what about the animals. If they are born a flea do they always remain a flea? And where do fleas wind up in the afterlife?I think all things will be resurrected, but into their perfect form and proper frame. So many things, as a consequence of the Fall, are not in their perfect form and proper frame. But everything will be properly and prefectly reset to enjoy "eternal felicity," right down to the most fundamental of genetic levels. Part of the perfect form and proper frame not only pertains to structure, but to function (for example, what they eat--the lion will eat straw, so why not the flea eat water? What does a perfectly fomed and properly framed flea look like and do?
Duncan Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 I got bit twice in the mission field by rotchy dogs and so to me heaven is dog free and rats because I don't like them either
pogi Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 All living things that are "soulless" Huh? Spirit + body = soul = all living things. All of creation is imbued with a soul, and thus has value. We are taught that all things, both animate and inanimate, were created “spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth” (Moses 3:5), therefore they all have a “living soul” (Moses 3:9), and the “worth of souls is great in the sight of God” (Doctrine and Covenants 18:10). We are even taught that our mother earth herself has intelligence and will be saved in glory (Moses 7:48).
3DOP Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 So what about the animals. If they are born a flea do they always remain a flea? And where do fleas wind up in the afterlife? What else? A flea would become God? If fleas can advance at all, why and when would there be any end to the advance? Has anybody said anything about eternality of the intelligences in LDS thought? If you think fleas or viruses have been that then yes, they are immortal. Think of all the murdered fleas that will be upset with us after they are resurrected. "Hey, we're people too!" I am trying to think LDS. I would argue against dogs and their fleas making it...unless you think they are already eternal. But is it thinkable from an LDS perspective that an "intelligence" gets put into a dog, a dog's fleas, or even cells of a virus? What would occasion something like that? And does this mean that a flea or virus cell has a personality? Are they persons? If it was my theology that fleas have immortal souls, I guess I would at the very least outlaw flea powder...but I don't want to get political here. Heh.
3DOP Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 (edited) Huh? Spirit + body = soul = all living things. All of creation is imbued with a soul, and thus has value. We are taught that all things, both animate and inanimate, were created “spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth” (Moses 3:5), therefore they all have a “living soul” (Moses 3:9), and the “worth of souls is great in the sight of God” (Doctrine and Covenants 18:10). We are even taught that our mother earth herself has intelligence and will be saved in glory (Moses 7:48). If all living things have souls (the principle of life in a material being) does it follow that every soul is immortal? Does every jalapeno pepper plant that ever lived look forward to eternity in heaven? Does each jalapeno pepper go to heaven? If all living things have souls (the principle of life in a material being) does it follow that every soul is immortal? Does every jalapeno pepper plant that ever lived look forward to eternity in heaven? Does each jalapeno pepper go to heaven? Edited August 18, 2013 by 3DOP
pogi Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 And does this mean that a flea or virus cell has a personality? Are they persons? Sorry to be so technical, but a virus is not a cell. Wether or not they are alive is a matter of great debate. Turns out, we don't really have a great working definition for life.
3DOP Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 So if fleas go to heaven, as they advance spiritually, would they or other animals retain their original bodies? I wouldn't want to become a different animal. Anyway, would a time come when we could say (not being irreverent) that God has a body, but it is an animal or even vegetable body?
pogi Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 What else? A flea would become God? If fleas can advance at all, why and when would there be any end to the advance? Has anybody said anything about eternality of the intelligences in LDS thought? If you think fleas or viruses have been that then yes, they are immortal. Think of all the murdered fleas that will be upset with us after they are resurrected. "Hey, we're people too!" I am trying to think LDS. I would argue against dogs and their fleas making it...unless you think they are already eternal. But is it thinkable from an LDS perspective that an "intelligence" gets put into a dog, a dog's fleas, or even cells of a virus? What would occasion something like that? And does this mean that a flea or virus cell has a personality? Are they persons? If it was my theology that fleas have immortal souls, I guess I would at the very least outlaw flea powder...but I don't want to get political here. Heh. To become a God, one has to be the offspring or literal child of God. Only humans can claim that lineage. All of the rest of creation will fill the measure of it's creation but that will be short of Godhood. 1
3DOP Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 Sorry to be so technical, but a virus is not a cell. Wether or not they are alive is a matter of great debate. Turns out, we don't really have a great working definition for life. No worries pogi. I thought maybe that was the case. I had heard something along those lines. Anyway, I was just shooting for the least likely living thing which would also have an immortal soul and an opportunity to become God. Scratch a virus at least until we know more.
3DOP Posted August 18, 2013 Posted August 18, 2013 (edited) To become a God, one has to be the offspring or literal child of God. Only humans can claim that lineage. All of the rest of creation will fill the measure of it's creation but that will be short of Godhood. Okay. Good answer. There is an impassable barrier separating and maintaining the superiority of humans over dolphins then in LDS thought. I am glad we are agreed on that. Edited August 18, 2013 by 3DOP
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