So What About The Animals, You Know The All Dogs Go To Heaven Sort Of Thing

[Stone holm]

To become a God, one has to be the offspring or literal child of God.  Only humans can claim that lineage.  All of the rest of creation will fill the measure of it's creation but that will be short of Godhood.

Interesting, perhaps we need a definition of what constitutes a god. Is the ability to have spiritual children an aspect of being a god? If so where did the flea spirits come from?

[Palerider]

I know that Joseph Fielding Smith (probably inspired by "revelations" to Joseph Smith), taught that all living creatures would be resurrected. 

 

RESURRECTION OF ALL THINGS

EARTH AND ALL LIFE RESURRECTED. Every creature on the earth, whether it be man, animal, fish, fowl,

or other creature, that the Lord has created, is redeemed from death on the same terms that man is

redeemed. These creatures are not responsible for death coming into the world any more than we

were, and since they have been created by the Father, they are entitled to their redemption and eternal

duration.

The earth itself shall be changed from its mortal body, for it too is a living thing now, under the curse

of death, and it “abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and

transgresseth not the law—Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be

quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.”

[D&C 88:25–26.]

ALL LIVING THINGS RESURRECTED. “I know that, whatsoever God doeth,” we read in the scriptures, “it

shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it.” [Eccl 3:14.] We know that all

these creatures are animated by the spirit which is in them, just as man is. The Lord declared through

the Prophet that “the spirit of man [is] in the likeness of his person, also the spirit of the beast, and every

other creature which God has created.” [D&C 77:2.] Is there any living creature that God has not made? If

so, the power of creation has gone out of his hands. He is supreme, and all life is from him, his gift to

every creature.

 

 

I've also read accounts of people who have had near-death-experiences that have seen animals in the next life much as they were in this life.

 

I presume that if fleas are resurrected it will be in a non-aggressive form such as when the lion lays down with the lamb.

 

Having stated the above I should include that although I don't recognize any of the "latter day prophets" as such it doesn't mean they didn't get it right on this particular issue.........

 

I like my dogs and horses............ 

Edited August 18, 2013 by Palerider

[CV75]

 If all living things have souls (the principle of life in a material being) does it follow that every soul is immortal? Does every jalapeno pepper plant that ever lived look forward to eternity in heaven? Does each jalapeno pepper go to heaven?

While it makes sense that immortal animals give rise to spirit offspring, the scriptures don’t say they are be gods. D&C 77:1-4 does offer this:

 

The earth has a sanctified, immortal and eternal state. The spirits of the creatures God created are in the likeness of their persons, whether in heaven (post-resurrection), paradise (spirit world) or in a state of happiness (“heaven”) on earth. They are to enjoy eternal felicity in which they possess light, knowledge and power according to their order and sphere of creation. If this is anything like the patter of the Creation as described in the New Testament and Pearl of Great Price, they would fall under Adam’s eternal stewardship (“Adam” representing any exalted person).

 

As far as plants go, considering how they propogate, the ancestors and descendants of the jalapeno pepper may be difficult for us to distinguish, but very easy for God to. In general, cuttings and self-fertilization do not produce "offspring," but other seeds could (depending).

[pogi]

Interesting, perhaps we need a definition of what constitutes a god. Is the ability to have spiritual children an aspect of being a god? If so where did the flea spirits come from?

 

God created all things (including fleas, plants, etc.) spiritually before they were naturally upon the earth (Moses 3:5).  There was not some flea God who had spirit children.  I'm not sure how the creation of their spirits differs from the creation of ours, but there is something about the way that we were spiritually born that make us the literal offspring of God in His image, (Acts 17:28–29)  all other things are but the work of His hands.

[Questing Beast]

 Huh?

 

Spirit + body = soul = all living things.

 

All of creation is imbued with a soul, and thus has value.  We are taught that all things, both animate and inanimate, were created “spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth” (Moses 3:5), therefore they all have a “living soul” (Moses 3:9), and the “worth of souls is great in the sight of God” (Doctrine and Covenants 18:10).  We are even taught that our mother earth herself has intelligence and will be saved in glory (Moses 7:48).

"Technically" accurate from a Mormon pov. But to the world at large, "soul" means a sapient being that possesses free will, i.e. can sin. Are you suggesting that "soul" a la JS's definition implies some kind of free will? It cannot be shown that any animals have free will. Only Man, the "sapient one", has free will, i.e. a "soul" worthy of resurrection to immortal perfection. If you don't want to cut it off there, and go with JS in all things, then what he said (as quoted above) must necessarily resurrect all once-mortal living things as themselves. It's a good thing the immortal worlds are infinite, because such an endless plethora of resurrected, immortal things would require infinite space to contain them all. Surely, this earth will not contain every living thing that has ever inhabited it, in its resurrected, glorified state. So, where do all the "unworthy" over-populating resurrected things go to live out their immortal lives?...

[halconero]

Where?

The organisms and children all have something in common: They are innocent and do not need Christ's saving power.

Is resurrection not part of the saving power?

[pogi]

"Technically" accurate from a Mormon pov. But to the world at large, "soul" means a sapient being that possesses free will, i.e. can sin. Are you suggesting that "soul" a la JS's definition implies some kind of free will? It cannot be shown that any animals have free will. Only Man, the "sapient one", has free will, i.e. a "soul" worthy of resurrection to immortal perfection. If you don't want to cut it off there, and go with JS in all things, then what he said (as quoted above) must necessarily resurrect all once-mortal living things as themselves. It's a good thing the immortal worlds are infinite, because such an endless plethora of resurrected, immortal things would require infinite space to contain them all. Surely, this earth will not contain every living thing that has ever inhabited it, in its resurrected, glorified state. So, where do all the "unworthy" over-populating resurrected things go to live out their immortal lives?...

 

The way I understand it is that all things do have intelligence and free will, both living and non-living.  The creation was not an act of God physically shoveling a bunch of matter around, rather God spoke and waited for the elements to obey according to the POG, which demonstrates both intelligence and free will.   Abraham 4:18 declares, "And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed."  Other passages in the BOM compare the obedience of the dust of the earth to man.  Mountains are moved and seas are divided out of obedience to God and their love for the savior.

 

As far as populating earth goes, you have a point.  I have no idea how that is all going to work out in the next life. 

[strappinglad]

Hard to say about other creatures. Maybe there is an exclusively 'flea' planet somewhere in the universe that is shaped like a dog. ( dog star? )

Perhaps there is a bio-soup planet just for bacteria.

Personally , I subscribe to the transplantation theory for life on earth. Plant and animal life was placed here in stages as required. No need to reinvent the wheel ( or the lion ) every time.

[thesometimesaint]

I think all things will be resurrected, but into their perfect form and proper frame. So many things, as a consequence of the Fall, are not in their perfect form and proper frame. But everything will be properly and prefectly reset to enjoy "eternal felicity," right down to the most fundamental of genetic levels.

 

Part of the perfect form and proper frame not only pertains to structure, but to function (for example, what they eat--the lion will eat straw, so why not the flea eat water? What does a perfectly fomed and properly framed flea look like and do?

 

Those fangs will get in the way of eating straw. Now maybe if God gives them flat teeth and three stomaches. But at what point does that lion not look like a lion? I won't even get into the bacteria necessary to diegest that straw. If all plants and animals upon Resurrection are eternal with bodies that can not be separated from their spirits. Why bother with eating at all?

Edited August 19, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Stone holm]

God created all things (including fleas, plants, etc.) spiritually before they were naturally upon the earth (Moses 3:5).  There was not some flea God who had spirit children.  I'm not sure how the creation of their spirits differs from the creation of ours, but there is something about the way that we were spiritually born that make us the literal offspring of God in His image, (Acts 17:28–29)  all other things are but the work of His hands.

I don't think that means that God sired spiritual fleas, but God sired us as spirit children and called that creation.  So I suspect fleas beget fleas in the spirit world as well.

[pogi]

If all plants and animals upon Resurrection are eternal with bodies that can not be separated from their spirits. Why bother with eating at all?

 

The millennium joke of the day - 

 

If a resurrected lion eats a resurrected plant, what happens to the resurrected plant after it is eaten?  Answer:  Holy sh**!

[thesometimesaint]

That's BAAAADDD.

[pogi]

I don't think that means that God sired spiritual fleas, but God sired us as spirit children and called that creation.  So I suspect fleas beget fleas in the spirit world as well.

 

I really have no clue how it all works, but if that is true, how do you explain the doctrine that God created all things spiritually before they were created physically?  It would seem that God could no longer be considered the creator of all things spiritual under your theory, but would only be the creator of all things physical. 

Edited August 19, 2013 by pogi

[Robert F. Smith]

Is resurrection not part of the saving power?

The saving power is from sin.  All are resurrected, regardless of their moral state.

[strappinglad]

The saving power is from sin.  All are resurrected, regardless of their moral state.

True, but did not the resurrection of Christ undo the effects of the Fall which came as a result of Adam's transgression ?

[Ahab]

So what about the animals.  If they are born a flea do they always remain a flea?  And where do fleas wind up in the afterlife?

Fleas live on planets like this one, and In the Telestial portion of heaven.  No fleas are allowed in the Celestial portion of heaven.  Dogs will be, though.  And they'll be happy that they won't have any fleas.

[Stone holm]

Fleas live on planets like this one, and In the Telestial portion of heaven.  No fleas are allowed in the Celestial portion of heaven.  Dogs will be, though.  And they'll be happy that they won't have any fleas.

Well I guess I will just sit back and wait from Calmoriah or Scott Lloyd to CFR you on that one....lol

[CV75]

Those fangs will get in the way of eating straw. Now maybe if God gives them flat teeth and three stomaches. But at what point does that lion not look like a lion? I won't even get into the bacteria necessary to diegest that straw. If all plants and animals upon Resurrection are eternal with bodies that can not be separated from their spirits. Why bother with eating at all?

Where straw is a non-living by-product of cereal plants that are handled and processed under the stewardship of human beings. It is not s stretch to see that immortal cereals slough off recyclable leaves in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity, just as humans would slough off skin, hair, fingernails, etc. Neither would it be a stretch to prepare the straw in such a way as to be consumable and digestible by just about any creature. The attributes of the straw would get altered by human ingenuity; the attributes of the living animals would not be, and they would still be easily recognizable.

 

Evidently resurrected beings do eat, and it makes more sense that they would eat than that they wouldn’t. It would be consistent that bacteria are used to digest in the immortal realms, but the same symbiotic digestive processes would not necessarily have to be exactly the same “there” as here. Glorified and inseparably connected spirit and element likely have much different interaction than what are found in mortal souls here, or in spirit and element separately, or when only “separably” connected.

 

Eating may not be necessary for an immortal organism's individual survival, but would be necessary for the same sociality that exists here to exist there, if not for the very least to recycle eternal element that is used in the processes of eternal life and progression.

[CV75]

I don't think that means that God sired spiritual fleas, but God sired us as spirit children and called that creation.  So I suspect fleas beget fleas in the spirit world as well.

Of course they do!

[thesometimesaint]

Where straw is a non-living by-product of cereal plants that are handled and processed under the stewardship of human beings. It is not s stretch to see that immortal cereals slough off recyclable leaves in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity, just as humans would slough off skin, hair, fingernails, etc. Neither would it be a stretch to prepare the straw in such a way as to be consumable and digestible by just about any creature. The attributes of the straw would get altered by human ingenuity; the attributes of the living animals would not be, and they would still be easily recognizable.

 

Evidently resurrected beings do eat, and it makes more sense that they would eat than that they wouldn’t. It would be consistent that bacteria are used to digest in the immortal realms, but the same symbiotic digestive processes would not necessarily have to be exactly the same “there” as here. Glorified and inseparably connected spirit and element likely have much different interaction than what are found in mortal souls here, or in spirit and element separately, or when only “separably” connected.

 

Eating may not be necessary for an immortal organism's individual survival, but would be necessary for the same sociality that exists here to exist there, if not for the very least to recycle eternal element that is used in the processes of eternal life and progression.

 

I don't know what level of technology the Gods need to have to be considered Gods.

 

I believe that Gods can eat. I just don't know if they must eat, and what biological processes are needed to keep them alive. IF upon Resurrection you become immortal, not able to die, then I see little point to non-human animals eating. Personally I'm holding out for a pork chop tree.

[Stone holm]

Of course they do!

So fleas can have a continuation of the seed without being exalted, hm interesting so continuation of the seed as referenced in D & C 132 isn't limited to exalted beings? or as some have suggested on this thread to even Celestial beings?

[CV75]

I don't know what level of technology the Gods need to have to be considered Gods.

 

I believe that Gods can eat. I just don't know if they must eat, and what biological processes are needed to keep them alive. IF upon Resurrection you become immortal, not able to die, then I see little point to non-human animals eating. Personally I'm holding out for a pork chop tree.

Making straw suitable for consumption by a variety of animals may have little to do with technology at all (1 Nephi 17:12).

 

I personally think animals find joy in eating, and the recycling of elements seems to be an eternal principle. Something gets done with those things that are acted upon.

 

Animal genes have been spliced into plant genes, so I suppose such a thing as a pork chop tree is possible, in this world anyway. Maybe as even as good as a good thick one marinaded in garam masala hot off the grill!

 

As to whether an immortal must eat, it seems that Adam and Eve were eating while still immortal, and partaking of the fruit of the tree of life isn't necessarily just ione bite, or a one-time action. It would seem that some kinds of eating of some kinds of things would be necessary for an immortal to make some kinds of things happen. His level of interest and capacity, and in which activities, would be related to his kingdom and glory.

[CV75]

So fleas can have a continuation of the seed without being exalted, hm interesting so continuation of the seed as referenced in D & C 132 isn't limited to exalted beings? or as some have suggested on this thread to even Celestial beings?

I don't see why they couldn't have spirit offspring as part of their eternal felicity. D&C 132 is clearly talkling about human beings and not fleas; I think there is more to "continuation of the seeds" than just having spirit offspring. The rights, privileges and responsibilities associated with God's children have to do with things not found in other orders or spheres of creation placed under human stewardship (hearkening back to D&C 77), however eternal those orders and spheres may be.

[thesometimesaint]

Making straw suitable for consumption by a variety of animals may have little to do with technology at all (1 Nephi 17:12).

 

I personally think animals find joy in eating, and the recycling of elements seems to be an eternal principle. Something gets done with those things that are acted upon.

 

Animal genes have been spliced into plant genes, so I suppose such a thing as a pork chop tree is possible, in this world anyway. Maybe as even as good as a good thick one marinaded in garam masala hot off the grill!

 

As to whether an immortal must eat, it seems that Adam and Eve were eating while still immortal, and partaking of the fruit of the tree of life isn't necessarily just ione bite, or a one-time action. It would seem that some kinds of eating of some kinds of things would be necessary for an immortal to make some kinds of things happen. His level of interest and capacity, and in which activities, would be related to his kingdom and glory.

 

It possibly doesn't. Again I don't know.

 

My cat isn't particularly finicky. Though he doesn't like people food.

 

Making food enjoyable helps ensure the continuation of life.

 

I don't know as recycling is an eternal principle. Though it does make perfect sense on a planet with limits to resources.

 

God said they could die. So in that sense they weren't immortal. That being said; Whatever A&E's attributes we and all other animals have to eat in order to stay alive. How all that will work out in the next life is anyones guess.

[Ahab]

I think it helps to realize there are things that live in places other than where our Father lives.  I mean, he lives wherever he lives now, and still there are fleas that live in the universe.  And so what if we someday live where our Father lives?  Will there still be fleas living somewhere, even if not on our planet where we are living with our Father in heaven?  Surely there must be, otherwise fleas wouldn't exist anywhere even though there would still be planets like this one where people are going through the same things we are going through now.  And why should they get to live in some place without any fleas?  Or why should fleas be wiped out of all of existence simply because they don't live where our Father lives?  Surely God would allow them to live somewhere, for some purpose, perhaps as food for other critters just as they are food for some critters who live on this planet?   Everything that lives now has lived for a long time and I see no good reason they can't go on living somewhere, forever, as long as they do what they do to make some more life forms, intelligences, that are like them.