Two Very Important Presentations At Fair Conference--Maxine Hanks And Faith And Doubt Panel

[Scott Lloyd]

I applaud those who return and do so through merciful and charitable reflection. I don't think I could return. I just don't see the LDS church as my home anymore. However, I can be an ally and encourage others on their journey back.

In case others are too reticent, I'll go ahead and say it straight out: You need to come back. This is where you belong.

[DBMormon]

Question - regarding the two panels. Personal Opinion - Would FAIR have done panels like those 10 years ago?

[DBMormon]

Valentius - I just wanted to say again, I really appreciate your softer tone. There is a dicernable difference over the past 5 months or so

[Calm]

I applaud those who return and do so through merciful and charitable reflection. I don't think I could return. I just don't see the LDS church as my home anymore. However, I can be an ally and encourage others on their journey back.

I am going along with Scott. I am selfish, I don't want you just as an ally, I want more.

[Calm]

Question - regarding the two panels. Personal Opinion - Would FAIR have done panels like those 10 years ago?

Yes, while we've become more careful in how we say things so we don't offend (we have learned that humour doesn't translate well over the internet), there has never been a time when we (as a group) didn't treat faith and doubt and crisis as something to deal with in a compassionate and nondismissive way. I think the only thing that might have prevented us from doing it 10 years ago was not quite so much experience.*****

And as Juliann says below, it didn't occur to those organizing the conferences at the time (which was in part what I meant from not as much experience).

Edited August 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[why me]

I applaud those who return and do so through merciful and charitable reflection. I don't think I could return. I just don't see the LDS church as my home anymore. However, I can be an ally and encourage others on their journey back.

I can appreciate your feelings about it. But for some reason, I feel that you would like to return and find your home again in the lds church. But at this stage just can't seem to do it. However, Don, and especially Maxine have provided a great example of how the church always welcomes back warmly the people who have fought against it. Likewise for those members who left the church, lived their lives out of the church and returned later. But the journey back is not easy..but it is .good to have friends on this board who are encouraging you to do so, regardless of the path you choose for yourself.

[juliann]

I applaud those who return and do so through merciful and charitable reflection. I don't think I could return. I just don't see the LDS church as my home anymore. However, I can be an ally and encourage others on their journey back.

Seth's presentation is now up....I think you will find his personal story inspiring...and perhaps helpful. http://www.fairlds.org/fair-conferences/2013-fair-conference/2013-why-mormonism-matters-pastoral-apologetics-and-the-lds-doubter

Roselynde's is also up http://www.fairlds.org/fair-conferences/2013-fair-conference/2013-disenchanted-mormonism

Edited August 8, 2013 by juliann

[juliann]

Question - regarding the two panels. Personal Opinion - Would FAIR have done panels like those 10 years ago?

I don't think we even thought about a panel format back then. We were still in a formative period where we didn't have the infrastructure that we have now. Ten years ago was a completely different world that makes comparisons impractical. Many tended to think that we were another Sunstone (that was the only model at the time for our type of org) when it was struggling with reputation problems and we had to gain trust.

Edited August 8, 2013 by juliann

[juliann]

I think the critics are ignoring their return. It must have been a disappointment for the critics to have these two prominent exmormons return to church. I do believe that the mormon community is stronger because of their return. But we need more vocal exmormons to return. And maybe Maxine and Don can help that along.

I think Maxine is being treated with a resounding silence, particularly from Mofems which is especially disturbing for those billing themselves as representing Mormon women. I find it astonishing that the Trib did not think a returned September 6 "apostate" speaking at a pro-church conference newsworthy.

[Calm]

I don't think we even thought about a panel format back then. We were still in a formative period where we didn't have the infrastructure that we have now. Ten years ago was a completely different world that makes comparisons impractical. Many tended to think that we were another Sunstone (that was the only model at the time for our type of org) when it was struggling with reputation problems and we had to gain trust.

Mormon Stories started in 2005, other people's podcasts followed including FairMormon's; Mike Ash's book Shaken Faith Syndrome was published in 2008 IIRC; the FairMormon Wiki got going in 2008 as well which really increased the presence of FairMormon on the internet as well as how we are able to engage so quickly with delivering detailed answers as well as quick ones to those using us as a resource. The technology has often led the way for what approach has been taken because it has changed how people are approaching the questions, the methods we are using to provide answers, etc. In ten years there will probably be another question of "would FairMormon have ever considered doing this ten years ago" that could be answered "sure, if it had occurred to us then". Edited August 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[why me]

I think Maxine is being treated with a resounding silence, particularly from Mofems which is especially disturbing for those billing themselves as representing Mormon women. I find it astonishing that the Trib did not think a returned September 6 "apostate" speaking at a pro-church conference newsworthy.

It is amazing. I would think that the SLT would have said something but then again it really doesn't serve its purposes to do so. Much better to report who leaves then who comes back to the church. The Mofems are basically interested in pushing their own agenda and a prominent exmormon feminist who returns to the church does not meet their mormon feminist agenda. And this is why we need to mention such former exmormons as Maxine and Don as much as necessary so that members can see that all do not leave and never return.

[DBMormon]

After Moderating the Last Panel, I headed over to Eborn books to be interviewed by Nick Galieti of "The Good Word" Podcast. Many of my thoughts from the panel discussion carry over to this interview. It is only 23 minutes long and the Questions and answers are fast and furious. I also think this backs up Seth Payne's presentation on Pastoral Apologetics

http://www.radiogoldproductions.com/thegoodword

If you want to get a better feel for how I voice this things with an actual voice, listen

Bill Reel

[Okrahomer]

I find it astonishing that the Trib did not think a returned September 6 "apostate" speaking at a pro-church conference newsworthy.

The Trib published a short article by Peggy Fletcher Stack last April about Maxine Hanks' return to the Church. It elicited more than 1500 online comments: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/54514350-80/church-excommunicated-faith-hanks.html.csp

[Calm]

The Trib published a short article by Peggy Fletcher Stack last April about Maxine Hanks' return to the Church. It elicited more than 1500 online comments: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/54514350-80/church-excommunicated-faith-hanks.html.csp

Yes, it was a report about a Sunstone presentation and was over a year ago (July 26, 2012). Perhaps you are thinking of another one? As far as I can tell, she hasn't been mentioned in the Trib since then.

I am surprised that while they announced the panel, they didn't see a need to report on it apparently:

Among the presenters will be Neylan McBaine, associate creative director at Bonneville Communications, who will revisit the role of Mormon women in a male-dominated faith, a topic that generated lots of buzz last year. She will moderate a panel of “distinguished Mormon women, who will discuss some of the recent controversies relating to women in the LDS Church,” according to a new release.

Sunstone got three articles written about their presenters, we got a side panel apparently (I would love to be proven wrong).

Edited August 9, 2013 by calmoriah

[Okrahomer]

Yes, it was a report about a Sunstone presentation and was over a year ago (July 26, 2012). Perhaps you are thinking of another one? As far as I can tell, she hasn't been mentioned in the Trib since then.

I am surprised that while they announced the panel, they didn't see a need to report on it apparently:

Sunstone got three articles written about their presenters, we got a side panel apparently (I would love to be proven wrong).

No, I'm not aware of anything else....just the Sunstone article from last year. Perhaps the Trib didn't want to report on her presentation this year, because 1,500+ comments is just too few?

Edited August 9, 2013 by Okrahomer

[Calm]

No, I'm not aware of anything else....just the Sunstone article from last year. Perhaps the Trib didn't want to report on her presentation this year, because 1,500+ comments is just too few?

I can understand not doing her presentation if they thought it was going to be a repeat, but the panel was not a repeat and was quite remarkable, imo, and would be something that I thought would be very appealing to the Trib.

[Okrahomer]

I can understand not doing her presentation if they thought it was going to be a repeat, but the panel was not a repeat and was quite remarkable, imo, and would be something that I thought would be very appealing to the Trib.

It seems Peggy Fletcher Stack does most of the "Mormonism" reporting for the Trib. Perhaps we'd get a bit further with the Trib, if someone were to reach out to Fletcher Stack personally? (Of course, someone from FAIR has probably already done that.). I don't know much about her particular bias--she may be one of the Mofem's to whom Juliann was referring.

[Calm]

if someone were to reach out to Fletcher Stack personally? (Of course, someone from FAIR has probably already done that.).

Trust me, they did.

She is usually pretty good to us from what I understand and her reputation reporting LDS is pretty good, that was what was so surprising there was no interest in the conference at all, no reporter even sent...I would have thought at least the women's panel merited that considering all the media stuff going on this past year plus the whole Mattsson thing about faith and doubt...a number of the presentations dealt with that issue and would have tied in nicely.

Edited August 9, 2013 by calmoriah

[USU78]

It seems Peggy Fletcher Stack does most of the "Mormonism" reporting for the Trib. Perhaps we'd get a bit further with the Trib, if someone were to reach out to Fletcher Stack personally? (Of course, someone from FAIR has probably already done that.). I don't know much about her particular bias--she may be one of the Mofem's to whom Juliann was referring.

Peggy, the 2nd [i believe] editor-in-chief of Sunstone, is not presently, necessarily a friend of FAIR or any similar entity. Why would you expect Peggy to be receptive to such an outreach? And wouldn't it look self-serving even if someone were to do so? And isn't the press expected already to be even-handed?

[gtaggart]

Peggy, the 2nd [i believe] editor-in-chief of Sunstone, is not presently, necessarily a friend of FAIR or any similar entity. Why would you expect Peggy to be receptive to such an outreach? And wouldn't it look self-serving even if someone were to do so? And isn't the press expected already to be even-handed? (emphasis supplied)

To ironically paraphrase one of journalism's greats: that's not the way it is--and never was, we've discovered.

[DBMormon]

write up on the rekindling faith panel

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865584385/Panelists-discuss-leaving-and-returning-to-the-LDS-Church-at-FAIR-conference.html

[urroner]

Over on an alternate message board, one that a certain grandson of a late prophet frequents, he had a bit to say about Maxine Hanks being rebaptized. He said a few things that even the members of that message board became upset about and they even said he was full of anger and resentment. Interesting thread before it was shut down.

I think it's awesome that Sister Hanks was rebaptized. People need to find happiness and joy in this life and it sometimes takes them through path which I have no desire to go down, but I have been down a couple of those undesirable paths.

I am overthrilled that Bradley came back.

One thing though, when the Sept 6 happened, I was angry with those people. I wanted them hurt...I wanted them hurt bad, but with the intervening years, losing all my dark hair until it's all grey, and going through another divorce and losing some precious friends to death, I realized that I didn't need to forgive the Sept 6, i needed to forgive myself and learn not to judge others whether they are righteous, evil, or just plain confused like many of us are and just doing the best they can with what they have.

[Tacenda]

Over on an alternate message board, one that a certain grandson of a late prophet frequents, he had a bit to say about Maxine Hanks being rebaptized. He said a few things that even the members of that message board became upset about and they even said he was full of anger and resentment. Interesting thread before it was shut down.

I think it's awesome that Sister Hanks was rebaptized. People need to find happiness and joy in this life and it sometimes takes them through path which I have no desire to go down, but I have been down a couple of those undesirable paths.

I am overthrilled that Bradley came back.

One thing though, when the Sept 6 happened, I was angry with those people. I wanted them hurt...I wanted them hurt bad, but with the intervening years, losing all my dark hair until it's all grey, and going through another divorce and losing some precious friends to death, I realized that I didn't need to forgive the Sept 6, i needed to forgive myself and learn not to judge others whether they are righteous, evil, or just plain confused like many of us are and just doing the best they can with what they have.

What did the Sept 6 group ever do to you? Why the anger towards them? Feminism bothers you? Questioners?

[Okrahomer]

Peggy, the 2nd [i believe] editor-in-chief of Sunstone, is not presently, necessarily a friend of FAIR or any similar entity. Why would you expect Peggy to be receptive to such an outreach? And wouldn't it look self-serving even if someone were to do so? And isn't the press expected already to be even-handed?

I have limited expectations of Peggy Fletcher Stack as a reporter. I certainly hope she tries to report as accurately and fairly as she can. I have read her articles from time-to-time, and some of them are interesting and well-written; others seem to have a definite negative (toward the Church) bias. I can imagine she maintains a lengthy list of issues and events she and her editor deem worthy of potential publication; and that each of these items finds itself in an on-going "competition for publication" with other news and events. I imagine the competition can be fairly tough at times. I can also imagine that she maintains numerous contacts within, without and on the fringe of the Church in order to further develop her research and ideas. I'm not a reporter, so I can only imagine that she would appreciate her contacts letting her know when relevant "things" happen that have a bearing on the kind of articles she writes. Perhaps I have that all wrong.

As we now know, it was a naive suggestion; because, FAIR already maintains contact with her. Do you think this is self-serving on the part of FAIR?

[Scott Lloyd]

Over on an alternate message board, one that a certain grandson of a late prophet frequents, he had a bit to say about Maxine Hanks being rebaptized. He said a few things that even the members of that message board became upset about and they even said he was full of anger and resentment. Interesting thread before it was shut down.

Ironically, at the FAIR Conference, she mentioned him specifically and kindly, spoke of him as her friend.