Two Very Important Presentations At Fair Conference--Maxine Hanks And Faith And Doubt Panel

[Calm]

Blair Hodges was kind enough to take extensive notes and I am going to blatantly rip them off from him in order to promote these two presentations I think any interested in spiritual journeys should listen to:

Maxine's talk was so powerful for me, it totally wiped out Mark's talk right before it and some of Don's though having a space saved a sense of it, it is just like it has suddenly taken up occupation in the centre third of my brain. If you can this is one you really should listen to, both this and the panel. The panel of the previous day is wonderful as well but I didn't get the sense the voice contributes as much as it does here.

Blair did a great job, but still didn't capture the full sense of wonder, delight and joy Maxine had in her voice...even with the full text I doubt it could convey that which is why I vote this one the must listen to or watch one of the presentations....and the other panel members as well with their own style which were more reserved and cautious perhaps but showed their passion for the topic and their intimate awareness of it.

MAXINE HANKS, “WORKING WITH THE CHURCH: ANOTHER NARRATIVE”

I’m surprised to be at FAIR. I’ve migrated from Mormon to ex-Mormon to Mormon, from Sunstone to FAIR, although I like to attend both. My return to the Church in 2012 wasn’t sudden, it took two decades. I began working with the church on projects just three years after my excommunication. I hadn’t planned on it, but higher wisdom prevailed. These projects proved to be gifts of grace and healing. Ministry is learning to work with your local leaders, and leaders in general, which I learned while away. Initially, our trust had eroded. Since then, things have changed. My views on women and authority are the same today, but my view of leaders has reversed. Empathy respect appreciation and willingness to work with them. Willingness to work with leaders is what really changed. Negative, positive, dominant narrative and new narrative.

The Negative narrative began in 1993 when there was a purge, if you will. Elder Packer noted threats to the church with intellectuals, feminists, etc. A larger narrative emerged from these events, a negative atmosphere of fear and distrust. seeing others as enemies. Dissenters and leaders had different narratives, relations to those events. The enemies story tried to write itself onto me, but it wasn’t my story. I was victim nor enemy. I was an editor of a book about women’s authority.

I was moving to a positive narrative. A path of freedom to be myself. I decided to explore my own shadow, not the fears of the leaders. “Why am I angry because of mine enemy?” Between 1999 and 2003, key events helped change my life. And key events that created a shift for the church. Our two narratives overlapped. In 1999 I became involved with an interfaith group. Pres. Hinckley’s son in law was part of the interfaith outreach group. I sat next to a man there who I thought did not look LDS. It turned out to be one of the LDS representatives. The people involved extended so much love to me. That same year, Pres. Hinckley announced plans to rebuild Nauvoo temple, an act of healing for the Mormon psyche, to help heal our sense of martyrdom, alienation, etc. I had just finished two years of research on the Nauvoo temple at the time. It was for a project of remaking stone replicas, which were ultimately used as designs for the new temple.

Many Mormon feminists were upset about a statement Pres. Hinckley made in Boston Globe that Mormon women had no complaints. I got hundreds of emails asking for help to respond. No one would go on the record for an editorial response, except one person. They needed two names, so I added mine. At the interfaith roundtable that next week I expected to be released. Instead, Alan Barnes, the son in law, reached out to me with more care than ever. Took me seriously and as open to my advice. He was a shepherd going out for the one. Two months later he died. I knew again that Christlike love is the path back.

In May 2001 the Dalai lama vistied Utah and suggested people not proselytize to other faiths, but live deeply in their own. That year, M. Russell Ballard gave a talk on the doctrine of inclusion. Also the Joseph Smith Papers Project was initiated. In 2002, SLC and the Church hosted the Winter Olympics which helped the church improve in relations with the wider world. I co-chaired the interfaith committee. That same year, the Nauvoo Temple was dedicated on June 27. I made a pilgrimage to Nauvoo to tour the temple before the dedication. It was a personal thrill to see that structure and its symbols come to life after I’d spent years researching it. The LDS Council on Mormon Studies formed to prepare for Claremont’s Mormon studies chair. Conferences and lectures have gone on ever since. In 2003, Claudia Bushman sponsored women’s scholar’s seminar at BYU and invited me to speak to the students. That summer my father also died. Intense time period. My relation to Mormonism was healing, more affection and understanding. The positive narrative that emerged was I had misjudged leaders. They were human beings deserving of compassion and respect as much as I deserved. I learned I could work with them. I could be myself and they would respect and accept me as I am. That was the biggest shift. We could accomplish more together than apart.

There were many narratives going on, aside from the negative one of 1993. The psalm of Nephi came to mind. “I know in whom I have trusted, my God hath been my support…he hath heard my cry by day, and given me understanding, etc.” Meantime, the negative narrative had grown larger in the meantime. Often we are battling discourse when we think we are battling a person. Dissenters dreaded church agendas, Church dreaded dissent. Dread hovered. Misreading each other through fear overtook the reality of all the other stories. My own excommunication in the September Six was wrapped up in it. How was it flawed and inaccurate?

1. Every story is unique; no story fits all, but that was the image we were given. 2. We never really knew what Pres. Packer or other church leaders felt, saw, or suffered, we didn’t know their stories or have those conversations. 3. Dominant narrative was overreaction to Elder Packer’s talk. What did he really say? He said dangers, not enemy or threat. He was right, feminists, gays, intellectuals have challenged the church. That’s not all bad, but it’s not all good, either. Much good has come, but polarization has also occurred. I didn’t agree with everything Elder Packer said in 1993, but I agreed with some of it. Especially the admonition to seek spiritual guidance and to work together. 4. Negative narrative worse than reality. Many scholars did work and were not questions. A few were questioned but defended selves well. Only half dozen were disciplined, and half dozen had to find jobs away from BYU. We were a handful, but just a handful. Uncompromising, held ground, except for Avraham Gileadi. 5. Openly challenging the church with possible lawsuits, etc.

the real enemy was the narrative, the narrative of fear. It obscures real individual lives, writes itself onto real bodies. Replaces freedom and vision with paranoia and fear. For twenty years the story has been told, new people have been inducted. Intellectuals and scholars today are still impacted by it. My own path didn’t fit the dominant narrative, giving me an escape.

Three ideas about changing the dominant, negative narrative. First, recognize it is flawed. Paul said ours is a gospel of faith, not fear. Second, locate your own story, your own unique path, in addition to the dominant narratives. Notice pain, struggle, paradox, your own inner map. The truth of why you’re here. Three, heal the un-healable. Some conflicts or rifts seem to large to bridge. The disaffection between JS and WW Phelps. I identify with both of them. I have not been perfect, as others have not been. Finally, how to get to a new narrative, beyond dominant? Living out a positive narrative let me transcend the dominant. A new relationship with the church and its leaders, a return to full fellowship. The psalm of Nephi, vv. 31-35, Oh Lord, redeem my soul, shut the gates of hell before me, because that my heart is broken and my spirit contrite…etc. The true union of souls is better than compromise. It is in the realm of higher wisdom, divine grace, light and love. It is a truth larger than the individual. A new break-through between two people, beyond limited human vision, mediated by God, found only through trust in God and mediating power of Christ.

What does new narrative look like? Working with church leaders look like? Not a list of suggestions for changes. My journey was about changing myself and finding a different approach. Changing yourself is what I’ll focus on here, working with people you disagree with. How can we authentically and successfully work with leaders, not feeling repressed or repressing others? A few ideas:

First, speak to each other as equals. Don’t silence truth in your heart, speak your truth with compassion and sensitivity, goodwill, positive vision for outcome. Pray and be open to higher wisdom to enter in. Stand back and allow Spirit to show you what you don’t know. Focus on the positive reality amid frustration. Don’t feed into the negative aspects. Whatever we focus on grows. Identify a common vision. Be open to new information. You don’t know the whole story. As St. Frances said, seek to understand more than to be understood. Be open to your own potential. It’s easy to critique, inactive, criticize, versus being engaged. Be open to coincidences that have meaning. Use language of compassion, respect, not inequality, rejection, etc. Language shapes everything we do.

Sum: Not suggesting others must adopt my story, my path, etc. But your story is personal and complex, positive and negative, different from others, but crucial for you to live out and express in larger contexts. Excavate ourselves. Ultimately for me, the LDS Church is worth belonging to and defending. But like us, it is a work in progress. We seek a fulness, but it is something that is still becoming, not fully realized. In the meantime, I strive for faith and love in the face of fear and hatred. Why? I do it to honor my parents, who I took care of through their decline and death. For all they gave and suffered for me, and all the stress I caused them. Ours is not a gospel of fear, but of faith and a sound mind.

Q: Tell us about the Sept. 6? A: Talk to me after, maybe, it’s a story I just don’t really care to tell any more.

Q: Will others come back? A: My return may have put an unfair pressure on them, and I can’t speak for them. Each has a unique path, we don’t know what God has in store, anything is possible, etc.

Q: Opinion about pants Sunday and ordain women? A: short version, I think it’s a critical mass moment in Mormon consciousness. In addition to these movements, things are happening in the church, a great example of synchronicity.

Q: Life-long member, father of autistic daughter where should I turn? Not accommodated well, etc.? A: Go to your RS president in the ward and stake and talk to her. Also, stake president, if bishop hasn’t helped yet.

Q: Any discussions recently w/ church leaders on feminism, etc.? I have, they’ve been positive.

[missed a few other questions]

PANEL DISCUSSION: “THE LOSS AND REKINDLING OF FAITH,” DON BRADLEY, JANET L. EYRING, BILL REEL, MAXINE HANKS

Janet Eyring: I’m a cousin of Henry Eyring, niece of Spencer Kimball. Graduated in ’76 from BYU, Spanish major, mission to Toronto, Canada. Taught ESL for 5 years in Utah, then back to my home state of California, did master’s and doctoral degree at UCLA, then trained ESL teachers at Cal-State Fullerton. My crisis of faith began as a child, not resolved until I was 46.

Don Bradley: Writer, editor, working on master’s in history at Utah State. Did my first research at LDS archives at age of 17, for some reason the only 17 year old there. Gradually gathered elements that were different from original perspective. To oversimplify, caused rupture in my faith. Spent about 5 years in the church not believing, then left officially, name removed for five years, then through combination of things returned 3 years ago. Maxine led the music at my rebaptism, even though she wasn’t a member again yet. I participated in her baptism as well.

Maxine Hanks: I was inactive for ten years after I turned thirty, for twenty years I was excommunicated, then rejoined. I spent as much time out as in, then. Me and Don began intensive discussions about JS to wrestle with concerns and doubts, I can attest that our returns are sincere, we wrestled for years and came back. Don confirmed me a member.

Bill Reel: I’m 34, joined when I was 17, only member in family. I had my crisis while a bishop. After that crisis, coming through it, started a podcast on the journeys. People here have shared with me that you have family members who have left the church, and I think problem is prevalent. Each has responsibility to strengthen the feeble knees. I’ll go to Don Bradley: How would you describe your faith before the crisis?

Don: My loss of faith was very gradual, but before that I had a strong testimony. Spiritual experiences, strong. Over time I came to not trust my own experiences, reinterpret them as just being internal to me, illusory.

Bill: Each of our journeys are different, not a single path. When I joined church at 17 I encountered Fawn Brodie’s No Man Knows beforehand, but emerged into the church with a black and while version of things, and that was what crashed. Maxine, talk about what caused your crisis initially.

Maxine: I was devoted, believing, served mission. First crack was as a missionary encountering sexist attitudes toward sisters. Disillusioned despite enjoyable mission. I was troubled because the ward I grew up in let me have leadership positions, etc. but in field there was a brick wall of inequity. At home I delved into historical problems, went through the crisis ten years before the 90s. 81-83, all the common problems, BoM historicity, polygamy, etc. Lost faith in institution. In 1983 had surgeries for endometriosis, lost my faith in God altogether.

Janet: Mine wasn’t connected to behavioral things, like wanting to drink, but rather was intellectual. I was a seeker from an early age, raised in Berkley First Ward in Cali. Hugh Nibley, Richard Anderson, Spencer Palmer were there setting the bar for academic discussion. My mother is inquisitive. Critical thinking went hand in hand with spiritual matters. I was doubter and contrarion from early age. analysis paralysis. How can my normal uncle be a prophet? etc. Moved to BYU, expected to testify in church. But I said I wasn’t sure, and was pulled away from the podium. Mission to Toronto in hopes of securing real testimony. Put whole self into it. Met many anti-Mormons that gave me info about it, I felt I received an answer to prayer that JS was a fraud, asked to go home 3 months early. Persuaded me to stay, I’m grateful. My 20 journey outside the church began.

Don: What caused mine was my history research, new findings that differed from the way I thought things should be. Losing faith in revelation, self-conviction. Intellectual analysis was the way to know.

Bill: Any insight into what made you susceptible to a faith crisis? There are some who become aware of issues but don’t have a crisis.

Janet: Maybe I was more analytic, less emotional, glory of God was intelligence, seek for truth, Church holds truth. To me, no wonder that well-educated Mormon could lose faith if key points were overturned. Didn’t matter how nice Mormons were, or faith of family members, wouldn’t keep me in. Disturbed by discoveries like multiple FV stories, glass-looking, masonry and the temple. I read Mike Ash’s book Shaken Faith Syndrome before I got on the panel, I think it does a good job describing the cognitive dissonance I felt.

Bill: Start off as naive to the issues, then struggle? But to counter that, I had read No Man Knows My History, listened to various anti-Mormons, I was aware of it all. Wasn’t until years later that my foundation built on bad assumptions fell apart, but if I had someone to talk to I might have been OK. But I was the answer guy by then, rather than having someone to go to. I was afraid to talk, maybe I would be criticized, maybe my doubts would spread, maybe leaders would disapprove. Strugglers need someone to talk to.

Maxine: It’s interesting that the same info leads to different reactions with people. Stories don’t follow even lines for everyone.

Don: Elder Oaks has talked about strengths possibly being our downfall. To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail. Having a good analytical hammer, I tried to apply it to everything. Often people who have intellectual doubts, they have taken the church so seriously that they’re willing to dig deeper, encounter more difficult info than others do.

Bill: What initiated the turn-around to begin moving back to the Church. And who helped?

Don: Probably a variety of things, but the first step was recognizing the good that it had done for me and the lives of others around me. My friend, Brian Hales, was working for him, so generous, recognized the peace the gospel gave him. Started to take seriously the idea that analysis was not the only way of knowing. Digging deeper to church history I got through difficult layers and got down to where gold was.

Maxine: I spoke of this in my paper earlier, but it was recognizing larger forces in my life, God working, and my sense of destiny. My life has a pattern and purpose, look for it and seek to fulfill it. Understand current circumstances in my life in light of larger purposes/destiny. Always checking to see if I was on my path. Always felt guided. Return was prompted by God, I’d say, and my own sense of destiny, recognizing signs that it was time.

Janet: After I decided church wasn’t true, I left cold turkey; few associations. A target of born-again missionaries in Utah county looking for people like me. Continued spiritual search; associaitons with Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. Actively spoke against the Church when I got the chance, believed Mormons were deluded simple-minded and self-righteous. But who helped? It isn’t that I felt guilty for breaking commandments, but living and experiencing things, natural effects of my poor choices, missed opportunity for service, to have children, etc. 4 key people, a friend involved in Sunstone that I felt I could work with. Invited me to meet other Mormon friends. Maybe retrieve, rethink, repair what had been broken. A brother-in-law who came to So Cal suggesting I go to church dance, seemed better than a 3-hour meeting. Met older singles like myself who were divorced, widowed, etc. And had a home teacher that wouldn’t give up. Church always finds you. I began to see an opening that I could become active, tearfully repented of what I reanalyzed to have been immature relationship to gospel; all answers didn’t need a clear answer. I felt like the prodigal returning, felt light again. At age 48 I married a Mormon, a happy life, loving people in the church of all walks of life, etc.

Bill: I wasn’t often on message boards, but as a bishop at my peak, I thought I had been deceived, I start asking Q’s on message boards, etc. Right away a few people assumed I was a critic trying to string them along. One person PM’d me and said I know where you’re coming from. A few more important Q’s. What had to change in your framework to allow for return of faith?

Don: Being open to other ways of knowing, as I mentioned. Another, not trying to put God in my box as what I expected. Content now to let God be God and I’ll be Don. Opening up to new questions. Questions focus our attention, the questions I had weren’t moving me, so I looked for new questions. Always questioning JS, what’s in it for him, that would damage any relationship. And Im much happier now than I was. Worked on becoming a more grateful person.

Bill: What assumptions did you make that can lead to loss of faith?

Maxine: I think it’s different for different people. To hard to predict what would be a trigger; we’re all so complex. We relate to info in different ways.

Bill: Advice for family or friends of people who struggle with faith?

Janet: Important to legitimize the doubting Thomas’s among us, they have a place in our wards. D&C says some have spiritual gift to know, others have gift to believe. I’m uncomfortable with shadow of a doubt testimonies. Wish we had more people saying I believe. That inspires me. I found the NIV Bible helpful, and Richard Bushman’s Rough Stone Rolling, which revealed JS as honest. Camilla Kimball, (wife of SWK) said I should embrace the good, and shelve the unclear issues.

Don: Mormonism creates a strong sense of identity, so sometimes people feel they need to break out of that identity, so they may say obscene things about GAs, or talk about their coffee, etc., and it’s important not to condemn or go back to the stereotypical thing that doubters are sinning. If no one really loses their faith over intellectual issues, then why do we have apologetics? Intellectual discussions and defenses wouldn’t be needed. So we should recognize that intellectual issues to matter.

Maxine: I wouldn’t impose my paradigm onto someone else, and it goes both ways. Whether you’re angry ex trying to shock or destabilize, or you’re a believer putting guilt or invalidation or disowning someone who left; we can’t oppress people with out journey or paradigm. I’m one who thinks that there’s a map written in our soul from before we came here, and you know when you’re on your own path, sometimes it takes you to places you didn’t think you’d go, or that others don’t understand, but you need to be true to your map. Love each other.

Bill: My suggestion is flexibility. Don’t cause trouble by identifying unnecessary lines in the sand about something like the age of the earth, etc. Last Q: How would you describe your faith after returning? For me, today things are more beautiful than my faith was before the crisis.

Don: My faith is much more flexible than before. Less certain that the right answer has to be a certain way. Before I lost my faith I would have said it was unshakable; that would have been said in ignorance about what the challenges to faith really were. Now I know real challenges. Terryl Givens spoke of a faith that absorbs doubt, I like that, I don’t feel that I’ve had to give up my awareness of negative things about the Church. These things are just placed along with the great things.

Janet: It’s a richer experience for me having come back. I often cry during sacrament meetings, and the scriptures are coming alive, you see your flawed self there in new ways.

AUDIENCE QUESTIONS

Q: I feel I am on the edge deciding. Do you regret the time of distance? Stay or go, hoping I would return?

Janet: If we claim to be true, go, if you must, and search and find. In my case it led back. It is risky, there can be pain and problems, but you have to search.

Don: The idea of anyone leaving is painful to me. there were lessons I had to learn this way, but rather than take that huge step, it’s much more difficult to come back than it is to stay and work. Maybe other people’s experiences can help you work through things where you’re at.

Q: How has your experience changed the way you would teach young children?

Maxine: It has changed the way I teach young women’s on Sunday. In all my classes I look for the deeper info we miss, the other stories. In talking about PH I spoke of Moses and Aaron but also mostly Miriam, who worked alongside them. I pull out the power of women that is usually buried.

Bill: I think the key is to take things slow. Look for context. Dig deeper.

http://www.maxwellin...ference-part-2/

Edited August 3, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Videos and audios maybe should be ready in a few days, I don't know how long it will be before text goes up especially with transcribing needed...though Blair has done a huge chunk of work on that.

There is some bad feedback on the sound system, it was a bigger room than expected and Cal (the other FAIR Cal) says he will correct it by amping up his box next year so no problem there.

Everyone got a table to write on, lots of space, never felt crowded, no looks from neighbours if I wanted to whisper extensively to my husband about subplots.

That was the one drawback to the move...though perhaps the bookstore didn't like being on the second floor...didn't get too many walkins for that from other conferences going on I bet, like we did in the past at times at Sandy. They had the most comfortable chairs one could have before moving to an leather armchair to sit by the fire...I can't remember who said it, but we voted that the next agenda for the First Presidency was to ensure to replace the typical Mormon torture device (as Kirby calls it), the metal folding chair, with these through the chapel anywhere anyone of childbearing age (or whatever screws up guys' backs and bums) on up might need it. Tables for everyone and lots of room to expand for more conferences as our numbers keep going up (both present and conference streaming I am guessing from what I've seen of the orders coming through even though I don't keep count). Second day lunch was a taco salad...delicious, I was going to kidnap Deborah and take her to lunch to keep me company due to the absence of my husband who had to go to a lunch meeting and thus missed his favourite speaker, Mark Wright...sigh... but then I saw the salad and heard Scott say there were plenty and John Lynch told me I didn't even have to wait until the end to see if there were leftovers (he wasn't being nice....yes he was of course, just knew there would be tons leftover as less people there that day than before). I still waited and got some books while waiting, God that Weeps, two Kirby books for my husband who loves to laugh and needs to laugh as it is about time for him to start stressing about school starting up again and trying to get the major summer projects finished (deck out back, floor in kitchen and library and front hall redone, granite countertops in kitchen and tile backsplash and then some painting of that one last wall I could never decide what colour it should be (probably a very light standstone to bring out the granite more)....

Oh, I see I am rambling way off topic...just let me say I love everything about the move, so much more comfortable, so much better food all around, got to sit under a fan for the alleged hot flash that lasted the entire first day (those blowers in the bathroom are great for quick drying shirts, lol) and I got to sleep in real late and still be on time for the last morning talk....though if he had been first I would have been there...though maybe in PJs with a blanket and pillow.

And I got an Armand Mauss book "All Abraham's Children" in great shape for $2. Woo hoo!

It is harder to find people being bigger....next year we need to find a board spot just to make connections....I still can't believe I missed you Scott even if I did get to chat with Mark Tuttle....who has a wicked sense of humour by the way.

Edited August 3, 2013 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

Blair Hodges was kind enough to take extensive notes and I am going to blatantly rip them off from him in order to promote these two presentations I think any interested in spiritual journeys should listen to:

Maxine's talk was so powerful for me, it totally wiped out Mark's talk right before it and some of Don's though having a space saved a sense of it, it is just like it has suddenly taken up occupation in the centre third of my brain. If you can this is one you really should listen to, both this and the panel. The panel of the previous day is wonderful as well but I didn't get the sense the voice contributes as much as it does here.

Blair did a great job, but still didn't capture the full sense of wonder, delight and joy Maxine had in her voice...even with the full text I doubt it could convey that which is why I vote this one the must listen to or watch one of the presentations....and the other panel members as well with their own style which were more reserved and cautious perhaps but showed their passion for the topic and their intimate awareness of it.

I agree with you about Maxine, of course.

I continue to be impressed with Don Bradley who, as you mentioned, gave his own presentation on the First Vision in context and was also on the panel.

I'm Facebook friends with Don, and I know he has been posting lately about being happy. That was reflected in his participation at the conference.

[Scott Lloyd]

Videos and audios maybe should be ready in a few days, I don't know how long it will be before text goes up especially with transcribing needed...though Blair has done a huge chunk of work on that.

There is some bad feedback on the sound system, it was a bigger room than expected and Cal (the other FAIR Cal) says he will correct it by amping up his box next year so no problem there.

Everyone got a table to write on, lots of space, never felt crowded, no looks from neighbours if I wanted to whisper extensively to my husband about subplots.

That was the one drawback to the move...though perhaps the bookstore didn't like being on the second floor...didn't get too many walkins for that from other conferences going on I bet, like we did in the past at times at Sandy. They had the most comfortable chairs one could have before moving to an leather armchair to sit by the fire...I can't remember who said it, but we voted that the next agenda for the First Presidency was to ensure to replace the typical Mormon torture device (as Kirby calls it), the metal folding chair, with these through the chapel anywhere anyone of childbearing age (or whatever screws up guys' backs and bums) on up might need it. Tables for everyone and lots of room to expand for more conferences as our numbers keep going up (both present and conference streaming I am guessing from what I've seen of the orders coming through even though I don't keep count). Second day lunch was a taco salad...delicious, I was going to kidnap Deborah and take her to lunch to keep me company due to the absence of my husband who had to go to a lunch meeting and thus missed his favourite speaker, Mark Wright...sigh... but then I saw the salad and heard Scott say there were plenty and John Lynch told me I didn't even have to wait until the end to see if there were leftovers (he wasn't being nice....yes he was of course, just knew there would be tons leftover as less people there that day than before). I still waited and got some books while waiting, God that Weeps, two Kirby books for my husband who loves to laugh and needs to laugh as it is about time for him to start stressing about school starting up again and trying to get the major summer projects finished (deck out back, floor in kitchen and library and front hall redone, granite countertops in kitchen and tile backsplash and then some painting of that one last wall I could never decide what colour it should be (probably a very light standstone to bring out the granite more)....

Oh, I see I am rambling way off topic...just let me say I love everything about the move, so much more comfortable, so much better food all around, got to sit under a fan for the alleged hot flash that lasted the entire first day (those blowers in the bathroom are great for quick drying shirts, lol) and I got to sleep in real late and still be on time for the last morning talk....though if he had been first I would have been there...though maybe in PJs with a blanket and pillow.

And I got an Armand Mauss book "All Abraham's Children" in great shape for $2. Woo hoo!

It is harder to find people being bigger....next year we need to find a board spot just to make connections....I still can't believe I missed you Scott even if I did get to chat with Mark Tuttle....who has a wicked sense of humour by the way.

I saw you once but was engaged with something and meant to say hello later. Then the opportunity never came up again. I'll have to do better next year.

A couple of unanticipated pleasures: finally meeting USU78 and Jeff Holt.

I'm highly impressed with Steve Densley, FAIR's new vice president, though I'm sad to see Allen Wyatt step down.

And while I'm holding forth, I'll say I already miss the old logo and that I don't really see the need for a new name. I told Scott Gordon I still call KFC Kentucky Fried Chicken.

[canard78]

Could you adjust the formatting on the quoted paragraphs in the OP? They're showing up as tiny text. If you CTRL+A (select all) and then click on the Eraser (second from the top left) which will make it all the default formatting.

Thanks for sharing this.

[canard78]

Maxine Hanks on the other 5 of the September 6:

Each has a unique path, we don’t know what God has in store, anything is possible

Bravo!

[Duncan]

I agree with you about Maxine, of course.

I continue to be impressed with Don Bradley who, as you mentioned, gave his own presentation on the First Vision in context and was also on the panel.

I'm Facebook friends with Don, and I know he has been posting lately about being happy. That was reflected in his participation at the conference.

he is on my mine as well, his posts are great!!

[DBMormon]

Great Times folks, I so appreciated putting faces to names. Taco Salad was awesome. So wish we could better facilitate those struggling having resources as most of the 20 qouestions handed to me over the panel were person struggles of the question askers.

[Calm]

Could you adjust the formatting on the quoted paragraphs in the OP? They're showing up as tiny text. If you CTRL+A (select all) and then click on the Eraser (second from the top left) which will make it all the default formatting.

Thanks for sharing this.

Is that better?...The one time I didn't do that..

[ALarson]

Thank you for posting this, calmoriah. It was very interesting to read through.

One thought I had when I was done reading is how those on the panel left the church (or became inactive) over historical issues, doctrinal issues, etc. None of them wanted to sin or other stereotypes that are so often applied to those who go through a faith crisis. I really wish this would end as I feel it would help those going through the crisis to want to work through it and come back.

I have many family members who are struggling right now or have stopped attending and every single one of them have done so after finding information on the internet (historical issues) that are actually true (polygamy, polyandry and so on). Most of them know what is being said behind their backs (the wanting to sin, being offended stereotypes) and this just causes them to feel unwelcome and doesn't make them feel they can return. I honestly believe that very, very few stop attending church so they can sin.

Anyway, thanks again, calmoriah.

Edited August 3, 2013 by ALarson

[Calm]

Thank you for posting this, calmoriah. It was very interesting to read through.

One thought I had when I was done reading is how those on the panel left the church (or became inactive) over historical issues, doctrinal issues, etc. None of them wanted to sin or other stereotypes that are so often applied to those who go through a faith crisis. I really wish this would end as I feel it would help those going through the crisis to want to work through it and come back.

I have many family members who are struggling right now or have stopped attending and every single one of them have done so after finding information on the internet (historical issues) that are actually true (polygamy, polyandry and so on). Most of them know what is being said behind their backs (the wanting to sin, being offended stereotypes) and this just causes them to feel unwelcome and doesn't make them feel they can return. I honestly believe that very, very few stop attending church so they can sin.

Anyway, thanks again, calmoriah.

I do think we need to be realistic though and not just assume people leave for intellectual reasons in all cases. As per Seth Payne's presentation, it can be hard to determine the actual sequence of events once someone has started to craft a narrative due to the influences on that narrative.

The reason why I feel it is important is that if we want people to come back to the faith, then we need to find out what is keeping them from it in the first place no matter what that is...and likely it may be a combination of things, though most definitely it may only be one in some cases (but people are generally complicated and don't make things as easy as that). If someone has doubts based on doctrinal and intellectual issues then eventually those must be addressed, even if the only thing we can do is acknowledge their existence. OTOH, if someone has committed a sin then that too must be dealt with in some way so they can move past it, to pretend that there is no sin or no need to examine oneself for potential sins doesn't help the sinner whether that person is in or out of the faith at the time (which we all are to some degree). And if someone has been offended, we need to help them recognize what the issue is they have with the other person or the institution itself and resolve it to help remove bitter feelings and prevent it from happening again.

Church is like therapy, a good therapist isn't going to ignore his/her client's issues just because s/he may specialize in a particular type of disorder. They should be flexible, being able to respond to whatever need is there or at least know the resources available so they can refer the client to another who specialized in their issues if it is beyond their capability.

Most of them know what is being said behind their backs

This should just be eliminated completely in my view no matter what and no assumptions should be made, but people should be openminded at least until they get to talk to the person to hear what the experience is like from their end. Edited August 3, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I know plenty of people who went to church while sinning so I don't think that the first impulse for most people when one wants to sin is going to be 'oh, I must leave the Church so I can sin without guilt'...plenty of people seem to manage just fine, sad to say.

Edited August 3, 2013 by calmoriah

[USU78]

I agree with you about Maxine, of course.

I continue to be impressed with Don Bradley who, as you mentioned, gave his own presentation on the First Vision in context and was also on the panel.

I'm Facebook friends with Don, and I know he has been posting lately about being happy. That was reflected in his participation at the conference.

Did anybody besides me get all misty and chokey during Maxine's presentation?

[USU78]

I saw you once but was engaged with something and meant to say hello later. Then the opportunity never came up again. I'll have to do better next year.

A couple of unanticipated pleasures: finally meeting USU78 and Jeff Holt.

I'm highly impressed with Steve Densley, FAIR's new vice president, though I'm sad to see Allen Wyatt step down.

And while I'm holding forth, I'll say I already miss the old logo and that I don't really see the need for a new name. I told Scott Gordon I still call KFC Kentucky Fried Chicken.

Right back atcha.

[Scott Lloyd]

Did anybody besides me get all misty and chokey during Maxine's presentation?

You old softy.

[Duncan]

Wish I was in attendance!!!, just saw the posted pictures online on FB. Haven't been to Utah since the MTC which was in April of 1998

[Calm]

Wish I was in attendance!!!, just saw the posted pictures online on FB. Haven't been to Utah since the MTC which was in April of 1998

You always have a place to stay.

[Duncan]

You always have a place to stay.

oh, thank you! i'll bring my poutine making supplies!

[gtaggart]

Did anybody besides me get all misty and chokey during Maxine's presentation?

I missed the conference, but I got misty reading the notes on her speech. My heart breaks when people leave the church--I still remember where I was when I read that Clifton Jolley had converted to Judaism--and it leaps for joy when they return. Glad to have Maxine back. (By the way, does anybody know whether Jolley ever returned?)

[Scott Lloyd]

I missed the conference, but I got misty reading the notes on her speech. My heart breaks when people leave the church--I still remember where I was when I read that Clifton Jolley had converted to Judaism ....

What? When did that happen?

Edited to add:

Don't know whether this web page is out of date, but it has him as an instructor at an LDS institute in Buena Park, Calif.

Edited further to add:

Apparently this article in Sunstone was written more recently (see about-the-author note).

Edited August 6, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

I agree with you about Maxine, of course.

I continue to be impressed with Don Bradley who, as you mentioned, gave his own presentation on the First Vision in context and was also on the panel.

I'm Facebook friends with Don, and I know he has been posting lately about being happy. That was reflected in his participation at the conference.

I Think that it is amazing just how happy and Maxine are now in the church. I am sure that they are making an impact on others who are in the same situation that they were in. It is wonderful that both of them gave presentations and sat on the panel discussions. Both are helping others to return to church. FAIR is also doing a wonderful job. i think that the exmormons are not very happy these days with the return of prominent exmembers coming back to the fold.

[Scott Lloyd]

I Think that it is amazing just how happy and Maxine are now in the church. I am sure that they are making an impact on others who are in the same situation that they were in. It is wonderful that both of them gave presentations and sat on the panel discussions. Both are helping others to return to church. FAIR is also doing a wonderful job. i think that the exmormons are not very happy these days with the return of prominent exmembers coming back to the fold.

I agree their return is an occasion of joy.

In an interesting aside during the panel discussion, Don said he requested that Maxine lead the singing at the service for his rebaptism (even though she had not yet returned to the Church). And Don performed the confirmation when Maxine was rebaptized.

[why me]

I agree their return is an occasion of joy.

In an interesting aside during the panel discussion, Don said he requested that Maxine lead the singing at the service for his rebaptism (even though she had not yet returned to the Church). And Don performed the confirmation when Maxine was rebaptized.

I think the critics are ignoring their return. It must have been a disappointment for the critics to have these two prominent exmormons return to church. I do believe that the mormon community is stronger because of their return. But we need more vocal exmormons to return. And maybe Maxine and Don can help that along.

[gtaggart]

What? When did that happen?

Edited to add:

Don't know whether this web page is out of date, but it has him as an instructor at an LDS institute in Buena Park, Calif.

Edited further to add:

Apparently this article in Sunstone was written more recently (see about-the-author note).

Can't remember the exact date, but I'd guess he converted to Judaism about 10-12 years ago.

[Damien the Leper]

I applaud those who return and do so through merciful and charitable reflection. I don't think I could return. I just don't see the LDS church as my home anymore. However, I can be an ally and encourage others on their journey back.