Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 If someone tells you that they are offended by what you said, you apologize and tell them you won't do it again. But that is the Christian thing to do.Pooned.
mfbukowski Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Pooned.They won't be converting anyone anyway with that attitude. It will just make people want to know more about the church after the absurdity they spout. Who was it on this board who was converted to the church by the ridiculous statements of antis ? There are a couple I know of as well.
mormonnewb Posted January 6, 2014 Posted January 6, 2014 Let me just say that I DETEST Mark Driscoll's teachings. Even when I was a Protestant, I thought he was an ignorant, egotistical bully and my view has not changed. ALL OF THAT BEING SAID ... He is not the only person who believes that he is a "true Christian." Don't we also believe the same thing about our faith? That our prophet holds "all of the priesthood keys"? That true salvation can only be achieved through ordinances conducted by authorized authorities from OUR church? Now, don't get me wrong. We have far more class than the Driscolls of the world. We don't mock the beliefs of others (at least, not publicly). But, in the end, I'm not sure that our aim is any different than Driscoll's. He wants to convert all of us misguided people to the "true Christianity," and unless I'm mistaken, so do we. Does that make us an "enemy" of the Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, etc.? In my view, Driscoll isn't any more an enemy of Mormons than we are enemies of, say, Calvinists. They think we have it all wrong and will miss out on HF's salvation unless we repent and we think that they have it all wrong and they will miss out on the Celestial Kingdom unless they participate in our sacred ordinances. Now, in fairness to us, we are a heck of a lot nicer about it. But, in the end, are we all that different from the Driscolls of the world?
boblloyd91 Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Let me just say that I DETEST Mark Driscoll's teachings. Even when I was a Protestant, I thought he was an ignorant, egotistical bully and my view has not changed. ALL OF THAT BEING SAID ... He is not the only person who believes that he is a "true Christian." Don't we also believe the same thing about our faith? That our prophet holds "all of the priesthood keys"? That true salvation can only be achieved through ordinances conducted by authorized authorities from OUR church? Now, don't get me wrong. We have far more class than the Driscolls of the world. We don't mock the beliefs of others (at least, not publicly). But, in the end, I'm not sure that our aim is any different than Driscoll's. He wants to convert all of us misguided people to the "true Christianity," and unless I'm mistaken, so do we. Does that make us an "enemy" of the Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, etc.? In my view, Driscoll isn't any more an enemy of Mormons than we are enemies of, say, Calvinists. They think we have it all wrong and will miss out on HF's salvation unless we repent and we think that they have it all wrong and they will miss out on the Celestial Kingdom unless they participate in our sacred ordinances. Now, in fairness to us, we are a heck of a lot nicer about it. But, in the end, are we all that different from the Driscolls of the world? I think that is a great point. I think for me the defining factor is who has the most charity. I look at folks like Greg Johnson, Craig Blomberg, and Richard Mouw, who though they disagree with us and worry about our eternal salvation, at least have taken the time to get to know us, and have shown love to us and that they consider us friends. 2
halconero Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 What is the CCV?All I can really say is it sounds like the the Lord is going to grow His Church in Arizona, even if a few people have to stir up trouble to do it.CCV (Christ's Church of the Valley) is a mega church in the northern Phoenix metro area. I served around there during my mission. It's definitely a very for-profit driven enterprise, sustained by sola-scriptura, once saved always saved, community merchandising, and Christian aesthetics/success doctrine. They were one of the big protestors against the temple being built a few blocks away.
halconero Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Let me just say that I DETEST Mark Driscoll's teachings. Even when I was a Protestant, I thought he was an ignorant, egotistical bully and my view has not changed.ALL OF THAT BEING SAID ... He is not the only person who believes that he is a "true Christian." Don't we also believe the same thing about our faith? That our prophet holds "all of the priesthood keys"? That true salvation can only be achieved through ordinances conducted by authorized authorities from OUR church?Now, don't get me wrong. We have far more class than the Driscolls of the world. We don't mock the beliefs of others (at least, not publicly). But, in the end, I'm not sure that our aim is any different than Driscoll's. He wants to convert all of us misguided people to the "true Christianity," and unless I'm mistaken, so do we. Does that make us an "enemy" of the Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, etc.?In my view, Driscoll isn't any more an enemy of Mormons than we are enemies of, say, Calvinists. They think we have it all wrong and will miss out on HF's salvation unless we repent and we think that they have it all wrong and they will miss out on the Celestial Kingdom unless they participate in our sacred ordinances. Now, in fairness to us, we are a heck of a lot nicer about it. But, in the end, are we all that different from the Driscolls of the world?Well said.
Coreyb Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Listening to some of their sermons, I am just glad they are teaching with the Old Testament. In Oklahoma, very few Calvinists ever took it seriously.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 ????They are found in the Book of Mormon!!!(But they were called "Zoramites" back then).Thee wicked cano be found on all of scripture. There fate I'll be the same.
teddyaware Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) Let me just say that I DETEST Mark Driscoll's teachings. Even when I was a Protestant, I thought he was an ignorant, egotistical bully and my view has not changed. ALL OF THAT BEING SAID ... He is not the only person who believes that he is a "true Christian." Don't we also believe the same thing about our faith? That our prophet holds "all of the priesthood keys"? That true salvation can only be achieved through ordinances conducted by authorized authorities from OUR church? Now, don't get me wrong. We have far more class than the Driscolls of the world. We don't mock the beliefs of others (at least, not publicly). But, in the end, I'm not sure that our aim is any different than Driscoll's. He wants to convert all of us misguided people to the "true Christianity," and unless I'm mistaken, so do we. Does that make us an "enemy" of the Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, etc.? In my view, Driscoll isn't any more an enemy of Mormons than we are enemies of, say, Calvinists. They think we have it all wrong and will miss out on HF's salvation unless we repent and we think that they have it all wrong and they will miss out on the Celestial Kingdom unless they participate in our sacred ordinances. Now, in fairness to us, we are a heck of a lot nicer about it. But, in the end, are we all that different from the Driscolls of the world?There is a very big difference between the plan of God's salvation subscribed to by most of the Christian communities you list above and the plan of God's salvation subscribed to by the Latter-day Saints. It is that very difference of perspective with regard to the plan of salvation that allows and enables the Latter-day Saints to be as you said, "a heck of a lot nicer about it." Here's what I mean: Many non-LDS Christians believe that if the 'Mormons' don't renounce their religion, and accept instead their understanding of the way to salvation, they are going to end up in an endless hell of unremitting, incomprehensibly horrific suffering. Conversely, the Latter-day Saints believe the destiny of the members of these other religions is to eventually inherit a glorious salvation and redemption from sin, death (both physical and spiritual) and the devil in one of the Father's many mansions of heavenly glory. The following passages from the Doctrine and Covenants set forth the position of the Latter-day Saints on this principle..."110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;" (D&C 76) and again..."57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continuetheir labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation." (D&C 138)This difference is critical and is one of the primary reasons why the Latter-day Saints are compassionate and filled with a spirit of hope toward our non-LDS Christian brethren. The Latter-day Saints wholeheartedly believe God passionately loves His spirit children who are not members of the LDS faith and will not give up on them. Conversely, the reason why many non-LDS Christians are so cruel, snarky and eternally dismissive toward the Latter-day Saints is because they believe God doesn't love the Mormons enough to do all in His power to save them, giving up on the Mormons when the God of the Latter-day Saints never gives up on them. They figure if that if God, who is supposed to be the embodiment of perfect divine love, is willing to forever give up on the Mormons and subject them to cruel torture for all eternity, why should they, as mere mortals, care if the Mormons suffer forever in hell. I repeat: There's a very big difference in outlook and understanding between the prospects of salvation the Latter-day Saints have toward their non-LDS brethren and sisters and the prospects of non-salvation the others you mention have toward the Mormons. In fact, these two points of view aren't even close, and that makes all the difference in the world. Edited January 7, 2014 by teddyaware
mfbukowski Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Let me just say that I DETEST Mark Driscoll's teachings. Even when I was a Protestant, I thought he was an ignorant, egotistical bully and my view has not changed. ALL OF THAT BEING SAID ... But, in the end, are we all that different from the Driscolls of the world?Are we ignorant, egotistical bullies? That is the point here, not that he is trying to save the world.
Five Solas Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 ????They are found in the Book of Mormon!!!(But they were called "Zoramites" back then). This merits its own thread. And you shall have it, Vance:0) --Erik
mormonnewb Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 There is a very big difference between the plan of God's salvation subscribed to by most of the Christian communities you list above and the plan of God's salvation subscribed to by the Latter-day Saints. It is that very difference of perspective with regard to the plan of salvation that allows and enables the Latter-day Saints to be as you said, "a heck of a lot nicer about it." Here's what I mean: Many non-LDS Christians believe that if the 'Mormons' don't renounce their religion, and accept instead their understanding of the way to salvation, they are going to end up in an endless hell of unremitting, incomprehensibly horrific suffering. Conversely, the Latter-day Saints believe the destiny of the members of these other religions is to eventually inherit a glorious salvation and redemption from sin, death (both physical and spiritual) and the devil in one of the Father's many mansions of heavenly glory. The following passages from the Doctrine and Covenants set forth the position of the Latter-day Saints on this principle..."110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;" (D&C 76) and again..."57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continuetheir labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation." (D&C 138)This difference is critical and is one of the primary reasons why the Latter-day Saints are compassionate and filled with a spirit of hope toward our non-LDS Christian brethren. The Latter-day Saints wholeheartedly believe God passionately loves His spirit children who are not members of the LDS faith and will not give up on them. Conversely, the reason why many non-LDS Christians are so cruel, snarky and eternally dismissive toward the Latter-day Saints is because they believe God doesn't love the Mormons enough to do all in His power to save them, giving up on the Mormons when the God of the Latter-day Saints never gives up on them. They figure if that if God, who is supposed to be the embodiment of perfect divine love, is willing to forever give up on the Mormons and subject them to cruel torture for all eternity, why should they, as mere mortals, care if the Mormons suffer forever in hell. I repeat: There's a very big difference in outlook and understanding between the prospects of salvation the Latter-day Saints have toward their non-LDS brethren and sisters and the prospects of non-salvation the others you mention have toward the Mormons. In fact, these two points of view aren't even close, and that makes all the difference in the world. I must agree with you on this point. As Mormons, we won't "damn you to hell" if you don't worship HF "correctly." But we do think that things will be A LOT better for you if you do it "right." All flippancy aside, that is a HUGE difference between our approaches. The question is whether it is more of a difference in degree and not kind.
mormonnewb Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 Are we ignorant, egotistical bullies? That is the point here, not that he is trying to save the world. However, to be clear, Driscoll isn't just a bully towards Mormons. In fact, he can be even more cruel with members of his own congregation. I remember one sermon a few years back when he kept calling the men of his congregation "a joke" and seemed to be challenging many of them to a fist fight. However, I wouldn't call him an enemy of Calvinists. He is just a petulant child who confuses verbal aggression with religious fervor. Quite frankly, he simply isn't worthy of the title "adversary" or "enemy."
teddyaware Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) I must agree with you on this point. As Mormons, we won't "damn you to hell" if you don't worship HF "correctly." But we do think that things will be A LOT better for you if you do it "right." All flippancy aside, that is a HUGE difference between our approaches. The question is whether it is more of a difference in degree and not kind.I believe that it's most surely a difference in kind and not really of degree. The reason being that, except for the sons of perdition, who give up on Heavenly Father and want no part of his plan of salvation, the rest of the human family will be happy in the eternities, each receiving as much heavenly glory as they are able to receive. The fact is that even if God were able to give a celestial glory to someone worthy only of the telestial mansion of glory, that person wouldn't be happy there and would feel totally out of place, unable to comprehend or appreciate what goes on in that realm. So in Mormonism, God blesses each of His children with as much heavenly glory as they are capable of receiving, each finding happiness and contentment in their own sphere. Meanwhile, many in these other churches say the Mormons are unworthy of any glory at all; they are only worthy of everlasting torment in the presence of the devil. This all adds up to a stark difference in kind and not degree. Edited January 7, 2014 by teddyaware
mormonnewb Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 I believe that it's most surely a difference in kind and not really of degree. The reason being that, except for the sons of perdition, who give up on Heavenly Father and want no part of his plan of salvation, the rest of the human family will be happy in the eternities, each receiving as much heavenly glory as they are able to receive. The fact is that even if God were able to give a celestial glory to someone worthy only of the telestial mansion of glory, that person wouldn't be happy there and would feel totally out of place, unable to comprehend or appreciate what goes on in that realm. So in Mormonism, God blesses each of His children with as much heavenly glory as they are capable of receiving, each finding happiness and contentment in their own sphere. Meanwhile, many in these other churches say the Mormons are unworthy of any glory at all; they are only worthy of everlasting torment in the presence of the devil. This all adds up to a stark difference in kind and not degree. I really like the way you see the three degrees of glory and how we will ultimately end up in the degree in which we would be most comfortable. My only question is do we still get to be together forever with our families in the two lower kingdoms? Or is there something about the Celestial Kingdom that I'm not taking into account because it does seem to be the kingdom that most of us are shooting for.
teddyaware Posted January 7, 2014 Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) I really like the way you see the three degrees of glory and how we will ultimately end up in the degree in which we would be most comfortable. My only question is do we still get to be together forever with our families in the two lower kingdoms? Or is there something about the Celestial Kingdom that I'm not taking into account because it does seem to be the kingdom that most of us are shooting for.The Celestial Kingdom is our goal. But remember, those who inhabit higher kingdoms of glory have the right to visit and minister to those who dwell in the lower kingdoms. In this way, the inheritors of celestial glory can maintain family ties with loved ones who didn't obtain a celestial glory. The following passages from D&C 76 succinctly explains how it all works.86 These are they (those of telestial gloty) who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation. That last line in bold italics tells us that telestial beings will not only be ministered to by messengers from a terrestrial glory but by ministering angels from the Celestial Kingdom as well. So the principle of intervisitation between the inhabitants of the kingdoms of glory is revealed and established; there will, doubtless, be joyous visits to beloved family members who are dwelling in the different kingdoms of glory. Edited January 7, 2014 by teddyaware
Popular Post followerofemmanuel Posted January 9, 2014 Popular Post Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) If this isn't the nuttiest conversation I've ever seen on an internet forum, it's right up there! The words "hate" & "enemy" aren't coming from anyone at MHC. Those words come from the keyboards of LDS posters on this thread. Isn't that a little embarrassing? Just a teeny, tiny bit?--Erik For what ever my two cents are worth. I too doubt that the Pastor hates LDS, however, his comments and humour were offensive, distasteful. I am not LDS, and I was very uncomfortable hearing his joke. If he disagrees with others beliefs, that is totally his choice, but he is in a place of authority and should be setting a good example of what it means to love and respect thy neighbour. Humour is ok but this was simply NOT funny. I would not want to laugh at anyone making jokes about Jesus death and resurrection, which I hold sacred. Blessings,Follower Edited January 9, 2014 by followerofemmanuel 6
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 9, 2014 Posted January 9, 2014 Though I have a repulsion towards Calvinist doctrines, I have listened to Driscoll many times and have to say I enjoy his straight -forward style and much of his messages (except where he advocates Calvinist heresies). Drawing on the rough-edges of the Seattle crowd, I believe he has changed many lives for the better, maybe not the best, but the better.
Five Solas Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 700+ people attended the official launch of Mars Hill Phoenix on Sunday Off to a great start! You can read more here (scroll down a bit): http://marshill.com/2014/01/12/church-launch-day If anyone on this forum attended (or attends in the future) please don't hesitate to post your experience. And a big thank you to Valentinus for starting this thread & bringing to the forum's attention --Erik 1
halconero Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 How are we supposed to attend if the official launch to Mars already happened? It's going to take at least a decade or two for them to make the return journey. 3
Damien the Leper Posted January 16, 2014 Author Posted January 16, 2014 What is the CCV?All I can really say is it sounds like the the Lord is going to grow His Church in Arizona, even if a few people have to stir up trouble to do it.Christ's Church of the Valley
Damien the Leper Posted January 16, 2014 Author Posted January 16, 2014 A lot of the people who attended MH-P are already part of Reformed churches.
Vance Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 On a related note. The pastor of the MH church in Seatle does an interesting deed. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/06/distasteful-if-not-immoral-popular-pastors-church-accused-of-spending-200000-to-trick-ny-times-into-making-his-book-a-best-seller/ Humm. Very interesting.
Kenngo1969 Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 On a related note. The pastor of the MH church in Seatle does an interesting deed. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/06/distasteful-if-not-immoral-popular-pastors-church-accused-of-spending-200000-to-trick-ny-times-into-making-his-book-a-best-seller/ Humm. Very interesting.Well, that certainly smacks of Priestcraft, don't it?
Five Solas Posted March 8, 2014 Posted March 8, 2014 Well, that certainly smacks of Priestcraft, don't it? awfully modest controversy to be resurrecting the thread--hiring a marketing firm to influence a best seller list by orchestrating purchases. and a charge of "priestcraft" no less... :0) for those interested in seeing what MH Phoenix actually looks like, the 4th sermon from the James series was preached there. The local pastor talks a bit about it ~ 2 minutes in: http://marshill.com/media/james-jesus-s-bold-little-brother/james-1-12-15 enjoy, --Erik 1
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