Mars Hill Church In Phoenix

[cinepro]

Well, that certainly smacks of Priestcraft, don't it?

What, exactly, makes this "priestcraft"?

Edited March 8, 2014 by cinepro

[Stargazer]

awfully modest controversy to be resurrecting the thread--hiring a marketing firm to influence a best seller list by orchestrating purchases.  and a charge of "priestcraft" no less...  

:0)

 

for those interested in seeing what MH Phoenix actually looks like, the 4th sermon from the James series was preached there.  The local pastor talks a bit about it ~ 2 minutes in: http://marshill.com/media/james-jesus-s-bold-little-brother/james-1-12-15

 

enjoy,

 

--Erik

A little curious about something, and that is a local Christian congregation, Capital Christian Center here in Olympia, WA (just about four blocks from my house), as of March 1 changed its name to Mars Hill Church. Is this of the same, um, denomination as the subject denomination in Phoenix, and yours in Seattle? It seemed a singularly named congregation when I first saw the signs go up, and I only tonight noticed this thread.

[danielwoods]

A little curious about something, and that is a local Christian congregation, Capital Christian Center here in Olympia, WA (just about four blocks from my house), as of March 1 changed its name to Mars Hill Church. Is this of the same, um, denomination as the subject denomination in Phoenix, and yours in Seattle? It seemed a singularly named congregation when I first saw the signs go up, and I only tonight noticed this thread.

 

It appears that is the case. 

 

http://www.theolympian.com/2014/01/18/2938309/mars-hill-church-finds-new-old.html

[mormonnewb]

What, exactly, makes this "priestcraft"?

 

I don't need if it fits the definition of "priestcraft" but I do know that it validates much of what I suspected is wrong with this guy.  And don't get me wrong.  I LOVE Protestant non-denominational preachers.  By definition, they are the very best preachers because they have had to build their churches from the bottom up, largely through the force of their pulpit skills.  Even as a Mormon, I still listen to weekly sermons from my favorites.  But this guy has always struck me as a loud-mouthed braggart and this gaming of the best-seller system certainly seems to point to that.

 

I'd be willing to bet that he has practically replaced his title as "Senior Pastor" with "Best-Selling Author."  He's been trying to use the cache of that title to convince people that he knows what he's talking about.  "After all, not just everyone is a best-selling author on the New York Times How-To Advice List."  Now, I'm certainly not the "Biblical scholar" (or best-selling author) that Mr. Driscoll is, so perhaps I missed the chapter where Christ gamed the Jerusalem Times best-selling scroll list to get his message out there to the masses, but I somehow doubt that happened.

 

This is a man who prides himself on "frank speech" as a berates, insults and bullies his congregates on a weekly basis, yet he will pay almost a quarter of a million dollars to mislead people about his success as an author.  I wish I could say I was surprised.

[Five Solas]

I don't need if it fits the definition of "priestcraft" but I do know that it validates much of what I suspected is wrong with this guy.  And don't get me wrong.  I LOVE Protestant non-denominational preachers.  By definition, they are the very best preachers because they have had to build their churches from the bottom up, largely through the force of their pulpit skills.  Even as a Mormon, I still listen to weekly sermons from my favorites.  But this guy has always struck me as a loud-mouthed braggart and this gaming of the best-seller system certainly seems to point to that.

 

I'd be willing to bet that he has practically replaced his title as "Senior Pastor" with "Best-Selling Author."  He's been trying to use the cache of that title to convince people that he knows what he's talking about.  "After all, not just everyone is a best-selling author on the New York Times How-To Advice List."  Now, I'm certainly not the "Biblical scholar" (or best-selling author) that Mr. Driscoll is, so perhaps I missed the chapter where Christ gamed the Jerusalem Times best-selling scroll list to get his message out there to the masses, but I somehow doubt that happened.

 

This is a man who prides himself on "frank speech" as a berates, insults and bullies his congregates on a weekly basis, yet he will pay almost a quarter of a million dollars to mislead people about his success as an author.  I wish I could say I was surprised.

This is more than a little over the top, mormonnewb. 

 

Driscoll rubs you the wrong way.  Fair enough.  But no reason to blast away with wild conjecture.  To begin with, he's never referred to himself as "senior pastor"--if you were even passingly familiar you'd know he eschews that title (Jesus is the "senior pastor").  At Mars Hill, Driscoll is the "preaching pastor."  And Sutton Turner is the executive pastor.  If you'd care to take a moment to educate yourself--you can read the page on leadership here: http://marshill.com/leadership

 

Regardless, he's not replacing his title with "best-selling author."

 

And it's probably not going to help, but there's a whole industry out there dedicated to helping authors and content creators maximize their positions on book lists, internet searches and social media.  But you're quite right--Jesus didn't hire marketing help.  And Mark Driscoll ain't Jesus.  I'm not even going to argue the expenditure was the best possible use of funds.  But there's nothing "immoral" going on (as Billy Hallowell sensationally suggests, to some LDS applause). 

 

As for your claim he, "berates, insults and bullies his congregates"--that's just you being insulting to me, as a member, as if I'd tolerate such a thing and subject my family to it.   

 

--Erik

 

PS.  Hopefully we won't have to wait too much longer to hear Kenngo answer Cinepro's question (post # 151 )

;0)

[wenglund]

The Seattle based Acts 29 Reformed MegaChurch is planting itself a disaster here in Phoenix.

Mars Hill Phoenix

For those not familiar with the Acts 29 Reformed "Calvinists", see here.

This is not good for the Valley.

 

They are on facebook, so they can't be all bad.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Damien the Leper]

They are on facebook, so they can't be all bad.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

They'd be better off if they dropped the Westminster Confession of Heresy and adopted a more Karl Barth and T.F. Torrence Scottish Reformed perspective. But it won't happen. They love their 5 Solas, T.U.L.I.P., John Piper, R.C. Sproul and all that other nonsense.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Valentinus

[Five Solas]

A little curious about something, and that is a local Christian congregation, Capital Christian Center here in Olympia, WA (just about four blocks from my house), as of March 1 changed its name to Mars Hill Church. Is this of the same, um, denomination as the subject denomination in Phoenix, and yours in Seattle? It seemed a singularly named congregation when I first saw the signs go up, and I only tonight noticed this thread.

Apologize for the delay--yes it's the same church, Stargazer.  You should check it out & report back.  There's a whole lotta opinion on the subject of Mars Hill here on the thread.  But folks with first-hand experience, a rare breed...

;0)

 

--Erik

[Five Solas]

They'd be better off if they dropped the Westminster Confession of Heresy and adopted a more Karl Barth and T.F. Torrence Scottish Reformed perspective. But it won't happen. They love their 5 Solas, T.U.L.I.P., John Piper, R.C. Sproul and all that other nonsense.

Well, MHC doesn't entirely align with the Westminster Confession.  But I can appreciate your point of view (even though I obviously don't share it). 

 

See mormonnewb, you don't have to make stuff up (post # 155 ) to offer criticism and/or defend your own faith.  Study & learn from our friend Valentinus.  Be aware, the newbie excuse has a shelf-life.     

 

How long, oh Kenngo, how long?  (post # 151 )

;0)

 

--Erik

[Damien the Leper]

Well, MHC doesn't entirely align with the Westminster Confession.  But I can appreciate your point of view (even though I obviously don't share it). 

 

See mormonnewb, you don't have to make stuff up (post # 155 ) to offer criticism and/or defend your own faith.  Study & learn from our friend Valentinus.  Be aware, the newbie excuse has a shelf-life.     

 

How long, oh Kenngo, how long?  (post # 151 )

;0)

 

--Erik

Are you being sarcastic?

MHC should completely drop the Westminster Heresy. That brand of Reformed theology is the only heresy more dangerous than Arianism.

[mormonnewb]

This is more than a little over the top, mormonnewb.

As for your claim he, "berates, insults and bullies his congregates"--that's just you being insulting to me, as a member, as if I'd tolerate such a thing and subject my family to it.

I did not mean offense but the very last Driscoll sermon I heard was one in which he repeatedly said to the men in his congregation, "Some of you are a joke!" And by repeated, I mean at least 20 times until the point that I could no longer listen. Now, perhaps I caught him on a bad day, but I don't think so. I'm sure with a very little effort (of which he is not worth), I could find a dozen YouTube clips of him using similarly insulting language towards HIS flock.

That being said, I make no judgment about you or any of his other followers, just as I hope you make no judgment of those of us who follow teachings that are very often derided as "ridiculous," "silly," or "foolish" on this very board.

[mormonnewb]

DUPLICATE

Edited March 13, 2014 by mormonnewb

[Five Solas]

I did not mean offense but the very last Driscoll sermon I heard was one in which he repeatedly said to the men in his congregation, "Some of you are a joke!" And by repeated, I mean at least 20 times until the point that I could no longer listen. Now, perhaps I caught him on a bad day, but I don't think so. I'm sure with a very little effort (of which he is not worth), I could find a dozen YouTube clips of him using similarly insulting language towards HIS flock.

That being said, I make no judgment about you or any of his other followers, just as I hope you make no judgment of those of us who follow teachings that are very often derided as "ridiculous," "silly," or "foolish" on this very board.

Shouldn't let the thread end on such a sour note & leave your latest bit of hyperbole unanswered, mormonnewb.  Yes, Mars Hill has a few detractors and yes, a couple of them have combed through online sermons cutting out the juicy bits and stringing them together to make him look like a nutcase.  You have to realize, of course, that such things are done to LDS leaders as well.  There are plenty of things that are neither fair nor flattering to be found on the internet for those who want to go and look.  I trust you wouldn't post such a thing here to try to bolster your argument.  I certainly wouldn't show such disrespect to LDS.  

 

Like to help you overcome your habit of exaggeration and making stuff up.  The Mars Hill sermon archive is very well organized & accessible right here: http://marshill.com/media/sermons

 

Not highly edited Youtube snippets designed to make the pastor look like a fool--full sermons IN CONTEXT.  CFR, mormonnewb: From the archive, link the one you listened to where you heard "some of you are a joke" 20 times.  Otherwise do the decent thing, apologize and retract. 

 

--Erik

[Damien the Leper]

There is a website for those who have left Mars Hill. I'm glad they found greater love and peace of Jesus Christ outside that church. Check out the website: Joyful Exiles

 

Especially read Jonna Petry's story. It is long but well worth it.

[mormonnewb]

Shouldn't let the thread end on such a sour note & leave your latest bit of hyperbole unanswered, mormonnewb.  Yes, Mars Hill has a few detractors and yes, a couple of them have combed through online sermons cutting out the juicy bits and stringing them together to make him look like a nutcase.  You have to realize, of course, that such things are done to LDS leaders as well.  There are plenty of things that are neither fair nor flattering to be found on the internet for those who want to go and look.  I trust you wouldn't post such a thing here to try to bolster your argument.  I certainly wouldn't show such disrespect to LDS.  

 

Like to help you overcome your habit of exaggeration and making stuff up.  The Mars Hill sermon archive is very well organized & accessible right here: http://marshill.com/media/sermons

 

Not highly edited Youtube snippets designed to make the pastor look like a fool--full sermons IN CONTEXT.  CFR, mormonnewb: From the archive, link the one you listened to where you heard "some of you are a joke" 20 times.  Otherwise do the decent thing, apologize and retract. 

 

--Erik

Are you sure you attend the same Mars Hills Church? Here is a public apology issued by Driscoll himself within the last week:

"In the last year or two, I have been deeply convicted by God that my angry-young-prophet days are over, to be replaced by a helpful, Bible-teaching spiritual father. Those closest to me have said they recognize a deep change, which has been encouraging because I hope to continually be sanctified by God’s grace. I understand that people who saw or experienced my sin during this season are hurt and in some cases have not yet come to a place of peace or resolution. I have been burdened by this for the past year and have had private meetings one at a time to learn from, apologize to, and reconcile with people. Many of those meetings were among the most encouraging moments in my time at our church. Sadly, not all of those relationships are yet mended, but I am praying that God is gracious to get us to that place of grace. Now that others have come forward, my desire is to have similar meetings with those who are willing."

http://renuemag.com/2014/03/16/an-open-letter-of-apology-from-pastor-mark-driscoll/

By his own admission, he has been an "angry young prophet" and acknowledges the pain he has caused and has sought to make amends. So it appears that even Pastor Driscoll doesn't think that I'm "making things up."

That being said, I am impressed with his humility and repentance. I wish him (and his congregation) well. In fact, in about six months or so, I'll re-subscribe to his podcast to see if I recognize the change. After all, he is a brilliant communicator and a good teacher.

In fact, I'll go one step further. If he really does mature into a Bile-teaching spiritual father, then I'll join you one Sunday in the pews (I live in the Phoenix area as well).

[Grudunza]

In fact, I'll go one step further. If he really does mature into a Bile-teaching spiritual father, then I'll join you one Sunday in the pews (I live in the Phoenix area as well).

I assume you meant "Bible-teaching."

I agree that his change seems genuine and heartfelt. Good for him.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Grudunza

[mormonnewb]

Shouldn't let the thread end on such a sour note & leave your latest bit of hyperbole unanswered, mormonnewb. Yes, Mars Hill has a few detractors and yes, a couple of them have combed through online sermons cutting out the juicy bits and stringing them together to make him look like a nutcase. You have to realize, of course, that such things are done to LDS leaders as well. There are plenty of things that are neither fair nor flattering to be found on the internet for those who want to go and look. I trust you wouldn't post such a thing here to try to bolster your argument. I certainly wouldn't show such disrespect to LDS.

Like to help you overcome your habit of exaggeration and making stuff up. The Mars Hill sermon archive is very well organized & accessible right here: http://marshill.com/media/sermons

Not highly edited Youtube snippets designed to make the pastor look like a fool--full sermons IN CONTEXT. CFR, mormonnewb: From the archive, link the one you listened to where you heard "some of you are a joke" 20 times. Otherwise do the decent thing, apologize and retract.

--Erik

And to more fully answer your charge of making things up, here is what Driscoll said in an interview with Glenn Beck:

“Nobody looks at these guys and says, ‘You didn’t have a dad. You’re addicted to porn. You don’t have a clue. You don’t have a plan. You’re part of the problem. Stop smiling, because you’re the joke,’” Driscoll remarked.”Nobody just tells them that, but that’s exactly what they need…”

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/12/04/fiery-pastor-doesnt-mince-words-on-what-young-men-today-need-to-hear-stop-smiling-because-youre-the-joke/

In an earlier post, I mention that, in one sermon, he repeatedly told the men that they were jokes. Do you still think that I'm making things up?

Here is a 6-minute YouTube clip where he repeatedly screams "How dare you" to the men in the congregation, all the while accusing them of domestic violence and sexual immorality. This isn't some snippet taken out of context.

Mark Driscoll Screaming How Dare You - YouTube

Edited March 19, 2014 by mormonnewb

[Damien the Leper]

You should check out the filth he and his wife wrote about sex and marriage. It's not quite as bad as A Call to Resurgence, Radical Reformission or Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe...but still awful.

 

I see plausible deniability or an "out of context" defense on the horizon as a response to this

 

And to more fully answer your charge of making things up, here is what Driscoll said in an interview with Glenn Beck:

“Nobody looks at these guys and says, ‘You didn’t have a dad. You’re addicted to porn. You don’t have a clue. You don’t have a plan. You’re part of the problem. Stop smiling, because you’re the joke,’” Driscoll remarked.”Nobody just tells them that, but that’s exactly what they need…”

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/12/04/fiery-pastor-doesnt-mince-words-on-what-young-men-today-need-to-hear-stop-smiling-because-youre-the-joke/

In an earlier post, I mention that, in one sermon, he repeatedly told the men that they were jokes. Do you still think that I'm making things up?

Here is a 6-minute YouTube clip where he repeatedly screams "How dare you" to the men in the congregation, all the while accusing them of domestic violence and sexual immorality. This isn't some snippet taken out of context.

[For some reason, I can't get the link the paste but a quick Google search of "Driscoll how dare you" will take you right there.]

[mormonnewb]

Shouldn't let the thread end on such a sour note & leave your latest bit of hyperbole unanswered, mormonnewb.  Yes, Mars Hill has a few detractors and yes, a couple of them have combed through online sermons cutting out the juicy bits and stringing them together to make him look like a nutcase.  You have to realize, of course, that such things are done to LDS leaders as well.  There are plenty of things that are neither fair nor flattering to be found on the internet for those who want to go and look.  I trust you wouldn't post such a thing here to try to bolster your argument.  I certainly wouldn't show such disrespect to LDS.  

 

Like to help you overcome your habit of exaggeration and making stuff up.  The Mars Hill sermon archive is very well organized & accessible right here: http://marshill.com/media/sermons

 

Not highly edited Youtube snippets designed to make the pastor look like a fool--full sermons IN CONTEXT.  CFR, mormonnewb: From the archive, link the one you listened to where you heard "some of you are a joke" 20 times.  Otherwise do the decent thing, apologize and retract. 

 

--Erik

 

I just saw this article on the web entitled the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill Church.

 

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2024534198_marshillprofilexml.html

 

But after 18 years of stunning growth, an escalating string of bad news finally started driving churchgoers away. Mars Hill leaders last Sunday said attendance and giving had plummeted so fast that it would have to close several Seattle branches and cut its staff 30 to 40 percent.

And the Highline High School honors student who started the church as a Bible study in his home wasn’t the one making the announcement.

Driscoll had stepped aside temporarily in August so church leaders could investigate whether he was fit to lead, following new accusations that he bullied members, threatened opponents, lied and oversaw mismanagement of church funds.

 

 

If I was a better Mormon, I would resist the urge to say, "I told you so!"  Pray for me!

[Bernard Gui]

It's been in the news here in Seattle for several says. Not a pretty picture.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2024485113_marshillxml.html

Edited September 19, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[mormonnewb]

It's been in the news here in Seattle for several says. Not a pretty picture.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2024485113_marshillxml.html

Hopefully, some of these people stumble upon our Church. If your local leaders are HALF as Christ-like as mine (and I bet they are just as Christ-like), then they will most certainly appreciate the difference.

[halconero]

I participate in the Christianity forum on reddit and the general consensus that I see there is "pray for Mark Driscoll that he finds grace, forgiveness, and peace in life, but he probably has disqualified himself from being a leader in church."

[bcuzbcuz]

From Wikipedia:

"It derives its name from the Book of Acts in the New Testament, which has 28 chapters, making Acts 29 the "next chapter" in the history of the church."

Don't they know you're not supposed to take away or add to the Bible according to the Book of Revelation?

I don´t think Mormons should be pointing out scripture dealing with "adding or taking away" from the Bible, don´t you think?

[halconero]

You realize I made that comment more than a year ago, so I have no clue what context I made it in, right?

Knowing my personality though, I'm 100% I was being fascicious.

[Rain]

I read the whole thread last night. The impression I got was that you were saying it was hypocritical for churches to say to Mormons they shouldn't add to the bible while at the same time adding "Acts 29" to their own beliefs.

And yes, I thought you were being facetious.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Rain