Mars Hill Church In Phoenix

[Calm]

No one at Mars Hill Church hates you, jwhitlock.

Someone doesn't have to hate to be an enemy, though it is a quality of many.

[LordUther]

Someone makes an underwear joke & that makes them your “enemy?” Heavy words are so lightly thrown, bluebell...

No one at Mars Hill Church hates you, jwhitlock. It's LDS here (yourself included) who are using the word "enemy" with regards to others. This thread certainly has been informative, but not for the reason you suggest.

--Erik

A friend would respect, even if they disagree, they would not ridicule and encourage others to ridicule. He is an enemy because he has chosen to be an enemy, we would have him as a friend. Maybe you forget the persecutions our people suffered in the early days of the church, too many of our people were killed by people who would ridicule us for what we hold sacred for us to have much truck with such jokes. We have a similar organisation over here in the UK called the Elim Pentecostal, their "playing innocent" lines didn't wash with me on my mission & they don't wash with me now.

[Five Solas]

Someone doesn't have to hate to be an enemy, though it is a quality of many.

If this isn't the nuttiest conversation I've ever seen on an internet forum, it's right up there! The words "hate" & "enemy" aren't coming from anyone at MHC. Those words come from the keyboards of LDS posters on this thread. Isn't that a little embarrassing? Just a teeny, tiny bit?

--Erik

[Calm]

If this isn't the nuttiest conversation I've ever seen on an internet forum, it's right up there! The words "hate" & "enemy" aren't coming from anyone at MHC. Those words come from the keyboards of LDS posters on this thread. Isn't that a little embarrassing? Just a teeny, tiny bit?

--Erik

I am through playing your game....

Someone makes an underwear joke & that makes them your “enemy?”

You made a challenge, people responded.

No one at Mars Hill Church hates you, jwhitlock.

Why can't you own your own words and not try to weasel out of them?

Edited August 3, 2013 by calmoriah

[LordUther]

If this isn't the nuttiest conversation I've ever seen on an internet forum, it's right up there! The words "hate" & "enemy" aren't coming from anyone at MHC. Those words come from the keyboards of LDS posters on this thread. Isn't that a little embarrassing? Just a teeny, tiny bit?

--Erik

Yep, those are the "playing innocent" lines I was talking about...doesn't wash. Not one bit.

[halconero]

If there's an underwear joke in 1 Kings, afraid I missed it calmoriah. Are you attempting to justify bluebell's use of the word "enemy" vis-à-vis the lead preaching pastor at Mars Hill?

--Erik

It's more than an underwear joke, mate. Replace lds garment with Jewish yarmulke, Sikh kirpan (or undergarment, they have one too), or the Papal crown of the Catholics and you see how quickly joking becomes mockery.

Elijah and the priests of Baal doesn't condone mockery, it condones proving the reality of one's faith claims. Evidently a contest in the Old Testament proved that, something that I doubt the wearing of someone's sacred symbols of faith will.

[Five Solas]

I am through playing your game....

You made a challenge, people responded.

Why can't you own your own words and not try to weasel out of them?

I don't think any reasonably objective reader is going to read my posts here and think "weasel," calmoriah. Might ask why you go on defending the indefensible (bluebell & other posters' labels, "enemy" and "hate" with regard to Mars Hill, which--to put it bluntly--is as deranged as it is unhelpful to dialogue). But clearly your heart is in it and we're at an impasse.

--Erik

[jwhitlock]

You can repeat the word "enemy" in as many posts as you like, jwhitlock. You may even believe it (and I'm guessing you very well might). But please know that your sentiment is neither shared nor reciprocated. Not by me and nor by anyone else I know at MHC.

For what it's worth,

--Erik

Here are some more gems from Mars Hill:

That’s why they have massive genealogies in the Mormon church – so they can get all the names of all their relatives and get them out of hell, right? The question is: is that what that text teaches? First thing I would say is beware of any religion that started in America with a white guy in the Midwest, as a general rule, okay? Just as a general rule. If a white guy in the middle of the country goes, “I got a religion,” do not join, okay? Just don’t.

First we’ll deal with how the Mormons interpret this. So, let’s say a couple of nice guys in white shirts with ties, on bikes, showed up to your house, knocked on the door, very nice, clean cut, and you ask them, “Is Jesus Christ the Son of God?” what will they say? “Yes.” You say, “Okay, so they’re Christians.” No, they’re not. Ask them what they mean, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

See, cults, and false teachers, and aberrant theologians, they’ll use the same language of Christians, but they’ll import different meaning. Like, I had a cult leader come to my house years ago. I said, “Do you believe in the Trinity?” “Oh, yes, we believe in the Trinity.” “What do you think the Trinity is?” “Faith, hope, and love.” Ah, wrong answer! Father, Son, Holy Spirit. That’s the Trinity.

So, if you ask a Mormon, they will say Jesus is the Son of God. Okay, what do you mean by that? What they will say is that men become gods—not that God became a man, but that men become gods—and that when men become gods, they can impregnate women and have children that are then the sons of god. “Oh, that’s different.” Yeah, by about this much, that’s different.

So, they would say there’s a God named God the Father, who, then, he is a man with anatomical— I’ve gotta figure how I say this. He’s a guy, he’s a man, physical man. There, I don’t have to fire myself. [Congregation laughing] He’s a man anatomically and physically. So, you know, there are lots of gods then, and gods are basically glorified men in physical bodies. And that this god, in a physical body, had actual intimate relations with a teenaged girl named Mary and got her pregnant.

So god knocked up a junior high girl. Okay? And then she gave birth to Jesus Christ, and because the father was a glorified spirit being, Jesus is a son of a god. But lots of people are sons of god, and sons of gods, and perhaps even Lucifer, then, could count as a son of god in their theology. There’s a debate regarding that point.

Now, what happens—so back to the point. Are Mormons Christians? No. They may be nice neighbors. They may be decent friends. They may be all kinds of things, but they don’t worship the same God as historic, orthodox, biblical Christianity. Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox Christians all agree there’s one God, three persons. God is not a man and God the Father does not inhabit a physical body, and he did not impregnate a teenage girl, and we’re not all sons of God like Jesus was.

And the list goes on.

The last two quotes were from a sermon from our friend, Pastor Mark, called "Jesus, the Son of God". Straight classic anti-Mormon material, complete with Pastor Mark's seeming obsession with making things sound as crude as possible - a trait fully exhibited in what he calls "humor", and what his congregants apparently approve of, in his stand up comedy routine on humor that calmoriah referred to. He'd give any worldly night club a run for the money.

So claims that Mars Hill doesn't think Mormons are the enemy fall kind of flat, don't they. From the kind of antagonistic stuff they publish on their web site, it's evident that Five Solas is indeed playing deceptive games with what they're really trying to do. Anyone who makes a generalization about whether a group of people are Christian or not, without regard to the individuals that comprise that group, is nothing more than a hate-monger playing to a crowd of lemmings who want to be entertained in church on Sunday in the same way that they're entertained by the TV during the week.

[jwhitlock]

I don't think any reasonably objective reader is going to read my posts here and think "weasel," calmoriah. Might ask why you go on defending the indefensible (bluebell & other posters' labels, "enemy" and "hate" with regard to Mars Hill, which--to put it bluntly--is as deranged as it is unhelpful to dialogue). But clearly your heart is in it and we're at an impasse.

--Erik

Nice misuse of the term "objective" here, isn't it. Turns out that Mars Hill characterizes itself as Fundamentalist in nature. You see, it's apparent that you're not really interested in dialogue. You simply dismiss or ignore some very pointed and accurate comments about what your church really thinks in regards to Mormons. Any reasonably objective reader is going to wonder why you want to misrepresent things when it's so evident on your church's web site that Mormons are fair game for denigration and misrepresentation by poorly informed pastors.

I do wonder about the validity of all those "testimonies" of coming to Jesus through Mars Hill when the congregation seems to enjoy Pastor Mark's crudeness. Reading the transcripts of his "sermons" leaves me with the impression that he'd rather entertain in the ways of the world than teach anything particularly meaningful.

[Five Solas]

Here are some more gems from Mars Hill:

And the list goes on.

The last two quotes were from a sermon from our friend, Pastor Mark, called "Jesus, the Son of God". Straight classic anti-Mormon material, complete with Pastor Mark's seeming obsession with making things sound as crude as possible - a trait fully exhibited in what he calls "humor", and what his congregants apparently approve of, in his stand up comedy routine on humor that calmoriah referred to. He'd give any worldly night club a run for the money.

So claims that Mars Hill doesn't think Mormons are the enemy fall kind of flat, don't they. From the kind of antagonistic stuff they publish on their web site, it's evident that Five Solas is indeed playing deceptive games with what they're really trying to do. Anyone who makes a generalization about whether a group of people are Christian or not, without regard to the individuals that comprise that group, is nothing more than a hate-monger playing to a crowd of lemmings who want to be entertained in church on Sunday in the same way that they're entertained by the TV during the week.

Yes, we disagree with your theology. And yes, not all of our members actually understand the ever-evolving nuances of Mormon doctrine (a problem not exactly exclusive to non-LDS). And yes, sometimes the characterizations are quite sensational and even unfair.

But that does not a hater or an enemy make. But carry on with the persecution complex, if you must...

;0)

--Erik

[jwhitlock]

Yes, we disagree with your theology. And yes, not all of our members actually understand the ever-evolving nuances of Mormon doctrine (a problem not exactly exclusive to non-LDS). And yes, sometimes the characterizations are quite sensational and even unfair.

But that does not a hater or an enemy make. But carry on with the persecution complex, if you must...

;0)

--Erik

Evidently you participate in deceptive self-rationalizations when you make such statements as you bolded.

You see, even though Mars Hill isn't in my area (I'm on the east coast), there are other fundamentalist churches that I've visited who basically teach the same things I found on your web site in the same way.

I've gone to some of those churches.

And guess what? When they find out that I'm a Mormon, they suddenly aren't very friendly anymore. You don't suppose it comes from what they're taught on the stage by their stand up comedian pastors, do you?

[Five Solas]

Evidently you participate in deceptive self-rationalizations when you make such statements as you bolded.

You see, even though Mars Hill isn't in my area (I'm on the east coast), there are other fundamentalist churches that I've visited who basically teach the same things I found on your web site in the same way.

I've gone to some of those churches.

And guess what? When they find out that I'm a Mormon, they suddenly aren't very friendly anymore. You don't suppose it comes from what they're taught on the stage by their stand up comedian pastors, do you?

No, I pass it off as an East-coast thing

[/humor]

You'd be most welcome to join me for a service or a small group meeting if you were on the other side of the country, jwhitlock. You're not hated. I'm not your enemy. Even though you might subscribe to some pretty jacked-up theology

;0)

--Erik

[Vance]

No one at Mars Hill Church hates you, jwhitlock.

Oh, so you mock the sacred things of those you love???????

[bluebell]

Someone makes an underwear joke & that makes them your “enemy?” Heavy words are so lightly thrown, bluebell...

You can't excuse this by playing dumb Five.

It's not an 'underwear joke'. It's mocking things that to Mormons are VERY sacred. If someone does that, and they know they are doing it, then they certainly aren't my friend. Neither are they 'neutral' to me and my beliefs. Take those two options away and 'enemy' is pretty much all that's left.

If that accusation is 'heavy' then maybe you should help the person who's doing it stop, so things can get 'lighter'.

The sermon on humor was quite good, if memory serves. In part based on Elijah making fun of the religion of the followers of “Baal” in 1 Kings 18—“And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, “Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself…” (v. 27 ESV).

Making fun of someone else's religion? Not exactly politically correct, I know (and that's a real sin for some in this day & age). But hey--there it is right there in your Bible. And it really is kinda funny, no? Ecclesiastes tells us there is a time to laugh...

You can watch it here: http://marshill.com/...gionsaves/humor

Hope you enjoy,

--Erik

You know what else is in the bible? A group of youth being torn to pieces by a bear for laughing at a prophet of God. I don't think I'd play to fast and loose with humor because it seems like when it's something that's sacred, God doesn't ever think it's funny.

And there's no way I'm watching that link. Why would I waste my time with people who have no respect for me or my beliefs?

[bluebell]

If this isn't the nuttiest conversation I've ever seen on an internet forum, it's right up there! The words "hate" & "enemy" aren't coming from anyone at MHC. Those words come from the keyboards of LDS posters on this thread. Isn't that a little embarrassing? Just a teeny, tiny bit?

--Erik

I'll diagram this out for you as I can see you're not getting it.

-If a person is mocking the sacred beliefs of another religion and doing so to make other people laugh (they call this 'bullying' nowadays by the way)

-and another person tries to defend that person by saying "its no big deal",

-the people pointing out that the 'funny man' is neither friendly nor loving, are not the ones being embarrassing.

[jwhitlock]

You'd be most welcome to join me for a service or a small group meeting if you were on the other side of the country, jwhitlock. You're not hated. I'm not your enemy. Even though you might subscribe to some pretty jacked-up theology

;0)

--Erik

Been there, done that with your kind of church, Erik. After reading through Pastor Mark's stand up routine on humor on the site, and looking through the other quotes on the site that are clear evidence that Mars Hill considers Mormons the enemy, my experience tells me that it would server no real purpose. I could probably get as much valid gospel related instruction by going to a nightclub; both activities if done on a Sunday would probably constitute breaking the Sabbath.

Anyway, here's another exciting little gem from Mars Hill Church site:

When the Saturday morning door knockers insistently tell you that they possess more divine revelation (like the Book of Mormon) for you to follow so that you can really be saved—don’t listen to them! And your list containing legalistic rules and regulations for you to follow so that you can really be pleasing to God—get rid of it (Colossians 2:20–23)! Add nothing to Scripture.

Wonderful doctrine, there, that you don't have to do anything. Get rid of all those pesky commandments; they're just legalistic rules and regulations that God really didn't mean to be followed.

That's fairly typical of churches that seek to provide entertainment instead of salvation. Once you're saved, your home free, and you can ignore all those people telling you that you actually have to do something in addition to "confessing with the mouth" - a misused scripture if there ever was one.

And here's another one. If you think the doctrines of the restored gospel are strange, we don't have anything to compare with this from Mars Hill:

Okay, one more. This one’s fun. “I hated God.” You know this guy’s predestined. Tell me about your— “I hated God.” Oh. “I have 666 tattooed on my butt, the Virgin Mary with devil horns—” He has a tattoo of the Virgin Mary with devil horns. Alright, if you are saved, that’s weird. You go to Jesus, you’re like, “Hey, good to see you.” “What about that thing with my mom?” Mary’s sitting there shaking her head like, “That was uncalled for.” “—a goatee and a tail on my leg, and an angel hanging herself on my arm. One night, just me and my girlfriend were hanging out, drunk of course. We got bored. Well, when she moved into my house, I made her throw out all of her God stuff unless it was Mormon-bashing.” So, the only religious stuff he would allow was Mormon-bashing.

“Anyway, we were so bored I told her to put in one of the anti-Mormon movies. She did and my life was changed forever. I found out that Jesus was a real historical figure and not just the main character for the world’s oldest novel. I picked up the Bible. I was going to read it so I could tell people why I hated God and how stupid it was. Before I got done with Matthew, I was a believer, started going to church, and was saved.” Like, if you have 666 tattooed onto your butt, if you have a tattoo of the Virgin Mary with horns, and an angel hanging herself tattooed on your body, and you get saved, you are predestined, okay?

Let me say this: predestined is a wonderful doctrine. What it means is it doesn’t matter how bad you are, God could save you. It doesn’t matter where you live, God could save you. It doesn’t matter who you are, or what you’ve done, or what you’ve failed to do. It doesn’t matter how rebellious you are, how religious you are, how ridiculous you are. God could love you, save you, pick you, bless you in Christ.

Predestination is such a lovely doctrine, isn't it. All those Mormons who are good neighbors and who say they love God and try to do what's right and serve their neighbors are going to the Burning Regions just because they're Mormons, while God is going to randomly pick predestined people (none of which are Mormons) to be "saved". And Pastor Mark has such a spirit-filled way of telling this story, doesn't he.

Mars Hill doesn't consider Mormons the enemy? Riiiiight.

[Sleeper Cell]

You'd be most welcome to join me for a service or a small group meeting if you were on the other side of the country, jwhitlock. You're not hated. I'm not your enemy. Even though you might subscribe to some pretty jacked-up theology

Sure. Any religious person would feel most welcome in a group of people who mock what he considers most sacred. Especially if those people apparently feel they have a religious duty to do so.

[Five Solas]

Been there, done that with your kind of church, Erik. After reading through Pastor Mark's stand up routine on humor on the site, and looking through the other quotes on the site that are clear evidence that Mars Hill considers Mormons the enemy, my experience tells me that it would server no real purpose. I could probably get as much valid gospel related instruction by going to a nightclub; both activities if done on a Sunday would probably constitute breaking the Sabbath.

Anyway, here's another exciting little gem from Mars Hill Church site:

Wonderful doctrine, there, that you don't have to do anything. Get rid of all those pesky commandments; they're just legalistic rules and regulations that God really didn't mean to be followed.

That's fairly typical of churches that seek to provide entertainment instead of salvation. Once you're saved, your home free, and you can ignore all those people telling you that you actually have to do something in addition to "confessing with the mouth" - a misused scripture if there ever was one.

And here's another one. If you think the doctrines of the restored gospel are strange, we don't have anything to compare with this from Mars Hill:

Predestination is such a lovely doctrine, isn't it. All those Mormons who are good neighbors and who say they love God and try to do what's right and serve their neighbors are going to the Burning Regions just because they're Mormons, while God is going to randomly pick predestined people (none of which are Mormons) to be "saved". And Pastor Mark has such a spirit-filled way of telling this story, doesn't he.

Mars Hill doesn't consider Mormons the enemy? Riiiiight.

Thank you, jwhitlock, for making an irrefutable demonstration that sensational & misleading characterizations of others' beliefs isn't a phenomenon unique to the non-LDS. In your most recent post, you've done the thread a real service--which should be clear to all but the most partisan. And please know that even after your butchery of the biblical doctrine of predestination--you're still not my enemy nor the enemy of my church. So if that was your hope & intent: FAIL

:0)

--Erik

[Vance]

And please know that even after your butchery of the biblical doctrine of predestination--

If what he said was in error, why don't you provide a correction?

[jwhitlock]

Thank you, jwhitlock, for making an irrefutable demonstration that sensational & misleading characterizations of others' beliefs isn't a phenomenon unique to the non-LDS. In your most recent post, you've done the thread a real service--which should be clear to all but the most partisan. And please know that even after your butchery of the biblical doctrine of predestination--you're still not my enemy nor the enemy of my church. So if that was your hope & intent: FAIL

:0)

--Erik

Well we're making progress. At least you're admitting that Mars Hill makes sensational and misleading characterizations of LDS doctrine. Pastor Mark really should get informed before he spouts off like that.

We've moved past the ->fact<- that Mars Hill considers Mormons the enemy. Pastor Mark's sermons make that abundantly clear.

In case you missed it, the two passages I quoted included digs at Mormons by Pastor Mark. I've had discussions about predestination (a non-biblical doctrine if there ever was one) with a number of Calvinist-leaning people, but I really haven't run across anything quite as bizarre as P.M.'s little story. He's really got quite the imagination there, and I do believe he is inspired - though not from the source you think he is.

I think my thoughts on what he was really saying were spot on. He actually sends quite a clear message about Mormons, despite your attempts to try to misdirect us about what he's really saying.

[Calm]

Five Sola, do you believe that the LDS faith is a false religion? Do you believe it deceives?

Edited August 5, 2013 by calmoriah

[Buzzard]

MrSola, the way to resolve this argument seems pretty clear. Since the hateful passages that have been quoted come from published MarsHill literature, but you don't consider us your enemy, or you ours, all you have to do is renounce them. Not your religion, just the statements.

So do those statements represent your feelings toward LDS people and their religion, or not?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I've had discussions about predestination (a non-biblical doctrine if there ever was one) with a number of Calvinist-leaning people,

I would be up for a debate of predestination. I have little respect for that doctrine. Edited August 5, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[jwhitlock]

MrSola, the way to resolve this argument seems pretty clear. Since the hateful passages that have been quoted come from published MarsHill literature, but you don't consider us your enemy, or you ours, all you have to do is renounce them. Not your religion, just the statements.

So do those statements represent your feelings toward LDS people and their religion, or not?

Exactly! There's no doubt that Pastor Mark's statements about Mormons reveal how he really feels about them (they're the enemy, those non-Christian heretics). If Sola is interested in really proving to us that he doesn't consider us enemies, then all he has to do is renounce Pastor Mark's anti-Mormon statements. Then a real discussion can occur.

Well, how about it, Five?

[jwhitlock]

I would be up for a debate of predestination. I have little respect for that doctrine.

If you want to crank up another thread on that, I'll try to participate.