Criteria For Celestial Kingdom Inheritance

[Vanguard]

Recently, I had an exchange with an atheist on a Christian apologetics site re: the LDS stance on who will and who won’t make it to the Celestial Kingdom. This atheist’s position was that should he continue on his current trajectory during this mortality (i.e., staying away from Church affiliation after having severed ties several years ago as an adult), he will not be found in the Celestial Kingdom according to LDS doctrine. He bolstered this position by quoting from lds.org where it states -

Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable

people “who were blinded by the craftiness of men” (D&C 76:75). This

group will include members of the Church who were “not valiant in the testimony

of Jesus”(D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to

receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the post-mortal spirit

world (see D&C 76:73-74).

Is this really all there is to it? Can we discern from an individual’s actions/inactions which kingdom he will inherit (in this case, the Terrestrial) should he continue on the course he’s on?

[Calm]

Is this really all there is to it? Can we discern from an individual’s actions/inactions which kingdom he will inherit (in this case, the Terrestrial) should he continue on the course he’s on?

I don't believe so; how can someone who can't read another's mind and heart know when they have had an actual opportunity to accept the gospel and not previously been too damaged spiritually to receive a witness or is hampered with biological issues that interfere with feeling the Spirit through no fault of their own?

I also believe the only deception that matters in eternity is self-deception, where someone chooses to blind him or herself to the truth for whatever reason and allows him/herself to be used and misled by others where s/he could have prevented it if s/he truly desired to walk the path.

Edited June 24, 2013 by calmoriah

[Vanguard]

I don't believe so; how can someone who can't read another's mind and heart know when they have had an actual opportunity to accept the gospel and not previously been too damaged spiritually to receive a witness or is hampered with biological issues that interfere with feeling the Spirit through no fault of their own?

I also believe the only deception that matters in eternity is self-deception, where someone chooses to blind him or herself to the truth for whatever reason and allows him/herself to be used and misled by others where s/he could have prevented it if s/he truly desired to walk the path.

Thanks for your response, Cal. So when the lds.org passage explains the Terrestrial Kingdom is reserved for those who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" you don't take that to mean those who have left the faith after having been baptized and remain separate from it? In other words, doesn't remaning "valiant in the testimony of Jesus" mean anything anymore or do you believe that phrase must first be run through the prism of each individual's capacity to discern truth from falsehood? Does that make sense?

Edited June 24, 2013 by Vanguard

[Calm]

do you believe that phrase must first be run through the prism of each individual's capacity to discern truth from falsehood?

This...which may definitely include those who were members and then rejected or left for any reasons.

I have no clue what percentage of people have had a well enough informed opportunity in mortality (preSpirit Prison/Paradise where those who didn't get a full opportunity will get it) that God will hold them accountable for leaving to the point of them being not in the CK no matter what happens in Spirit Prison (of course it won't happen because they have already made that choice, not because God didn't give them a chance there). There may be very few, there may be billions. I tend to lean toward few...whether that is my optimism or low opinion of people being able to accurately discern the truth to significant levels, I can't tell, perhaps a little of both.

Personally I think those who have been willing to be blinded by others have already demonstrated (to God and themselves, the rest of us don't mindread so wouldn't be able to tell) that they do not desire to live in the CK so I don't see too many disappointed people there. I don't see people's 'assignment' to the lower kingdoms as a punishment, but rather a blessing because I assume that is where they will want to be. I can see someone who makes a different assumption, that those in the lower kingdoms will resent not having the opportunities in the higher ones, seeing them as punishment but I figure any punishment/balancing of karma**** is over with by the time we move into that stage of our existence.

*****the second is my view, I don't even think the suffering in hell is what we tend think of as punishment but rather again a gift that allows one to be purified if not sanctified to allow one to have access to eternal heavens even if not the Celestial one. This may however be due to my psychology training that didn't think much of the long term effectiveness of positive punishment (technical term for applying an aversive stimuli to decrease a behaviour as opposed to negative punishment which is to remove a positive stimuli to decrease behaviour) when it came to changing behaviour, reinforcement working much, much better IIRC. This is apparently debated still though, but I figure God has got operant conditioning down pat so he knows which works best and when for each individual....if only psychologists were half as good.

Edited June 24, 2013 by calmoriah

[The Nehor]

Thanks for your response, Cal. So when the lds.org passage explains the Terrestrial Kingdom is reserved for those who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" you don't take that to mean those who have left the faith after having been baptized and remain separate from it? In other words, doesn't remaning "valiant in the testimony of Jesus" mean anything anymore or do you believe that phrase must first be run through the prism of each individual's capacity to discern truth from falsehood? Does that make sense?

I suspect most of the "not valiant" are sitting in church pews most Sundays.

In our Priesthood lesson today (I taught) we discussed that God is not really interested in checkboxes but what we are. Keeping the commandments is critical but only if it changes us. That being said our spirits are housed in a flawed tabernacle with a brain subject to all kinds of weaknesses we did not choose. Within these constraints we can improve the spirit within. The real test is what is left when we leave it. I suspect there are outwardly "good" people who are really just coasting off of lucky genes and a good upbringing while there are "bad" people dealing with broken brains and psychological issues from a rotten upbringing who appear horrible but are actually showing all the light they can and when God removes the problems we will find a saint inside. C.S. Lewis once remarked that in the balance of heaven one person performing a mild act of kindness may count as much as another man giving up his life.

So no, I do not think we can know what kingdom someone will go to. We might have guesses and, if we are close to them and are discerning, may even be right. Revelation might let someone declare it. God knows. I also believe we can know our own standing through asking.

As to this atheist I suspect God has mercies we do not suspect that will save more then we may have hoped. I could be wrong though.

[Calm]

I should add that part of my attitude has been molded by a three year experience where I was on an anti-depressant that I believe cut off my ability to recognize a personal connection with the Spirit among other things. It literally felt like there was a darkness (not evil, just congestion like a traffic jam in the middle of the night with no power on and no car lights) in part of my brain, it also felt like a heavy weight. Anyway, having experienced the Spirit before enough so that I trusted it, I looked for other ways to test for it and found enough to be reassured that I was still doing okay but was very grateful when the fog lifted after I went off the drug (if only all of the other side effects disappeared so thoroughly...but this was the most important one so thank goodness it went away).

If I had not experienced the Spirit beforehand and known what I was missing or had encountered missionaries at that time and been asked to pray for a witness and then not been able to have recognized it when it was sent, could I have been judged as having an informed chance having lacked a spiritual witness through no fault of my own and in fact was trying to do the righteous thing (I shouldn't have even been on the drug as it was a misdiagnosis, but I trusted the doctor, done my own research--but it was a new drug so some warnings appeared later---and wanted to be a good mother, wife and friend so stuck to it)? I don't think so and I consider it likely that many are in that situation over the years either due to health or upbringing where they are incapable of recognizing the Spirit even if they experience it.

Edited June 24, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

there are "bad" people dealing with broken brains and psychological issues from a rotten upbringing who appear horrible but are actually showing all the light they can and when God removes the problems we will find a saint inside.

Beautifully put.

[BCSpace]

Is this really all there is to it? Can we discern from an individual’s actions/inactions which kingdom he will inherit (in this case, the Terrestrial) should he continue on the course he’s on?

We can discern which actions/words/beliefs belong to which glory and therefore project someone's trajectory with reasonable accuracy. But we rarely have much insight on when and if that trajectory will change.

[halconero]

We can discern which actions/words/beliefs belong to which glory and therefore project someone's trajectory with reasonable accuracy. But we rarely have much insight on when and if that trajectory will change.

Agreed.

Each Kingdom has certain laws which must be met. I find it better to think of them as most people think of the Laws of Physics, or the Laws of Chemistry. In this telestial world all things must abide by the laws of nature. Things don't simply aren't. They don't exist. All creation abides by these laws and therefore exist in the world. You could read it the other way around. All things exist in the world and therefore obey its laws. It isn't a matter of philosophy but of fact.

In each world, be it Telestial, Terrestrial or Celestial there are certain laws just as vital to existence in that world as are the Laws of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, etc. The scriptures state. If these laws are not met something or someone cannot exist in that world.

D&C 88 states it thus:

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

What does abide mean? What did it mean to Joseph Smith?

The 1828 webster's dictionary states it like this: ABI'DE, v. i. pert. and part. abode.

abada, to be, or exist, to continue; W. bod, to be; to dwell, rest, continue, stand firm, or be stationary for anytime indefinitely.

---------------

So in order to exist in these kingdoms the laws thereof must be met. These laws are best described through the principles and rituals of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, we cannot live the laws of the Celestial Kingdom without Christ, His Atonement and Plan.

The Plan of Salvation teaches us that it is here, in a telestial state, that we must begin to learn and apply celestial law. Even though our bodies are in a telestial state (hunger, pain, sickness, etc) our spirits have the ability to live celestial law right now (chatity/marital sexuality, fidelity vs. lust. Knowledge vs. Ignorance, Selfishness vs. Consecration).

It is our spirit, and the law it abides now (with or without Christ), which will reflect on the resurrection and kingdom we receive. The resurrected body we receive will just be a reflection of what is on the inside:

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shalldie, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, aspiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same bodywhich was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

Even though the earth is in a telestial state of plagues, disasters, famine, hunger and sin it abides the laws of the celestial kingdom. It will be renewed by that. So it is with us. To which laws of nature, of which world, will we adhere?

I argue that it isn't difficult to discern who is living what law at this moment. There are those who radiate goodness, faith, peace and serenity. For others living the same laws, or striving to, it is a nice, comfortable thing to abide, or exist, in their presence. It is elevating, calm, and strengthening. Those living a more base law are, many times, uncomfortable or unwilling to be around them. There will come a point where such goodness and faith will be magnified to the level where anyone living a lower law will not be able to abide their presence.

[Alan]

Those who enter the Celestial Kingdom are those who have faith in Christ, repent, are baptised, receive the Holy Spirit, and endure to the end.

That's it.

[CV75]

Can we discern from an individual’s actions/inactions which kingdom he will inherit (in this case, the Terrestrial) should he continue on the course he’s on?

I would say not; discernment of this kind would be a spiritual gift and I don't think its is granted. There are too many unknown variables beyond action and inaction. And these are adressed by the gifts of repentance, healing, forgiveness, atonement, etc.

I think it is useful for one to ask hismelf, "Is what I am doing/saying/thinking/desiring/feeling reflective of a Celestial/Terrestrial/Telestial character?" to get the ball rolling with reaching out to Haevenly Father.

[rpn]

My take is that these scriptures are intended to inspire mortals in their efforts, but they in no way bind Heavenly Father, or grace. He only requires baptism and our personal best with quick repentance. We may know our personal best --- I say "may" because sometimes we hold ourselves accountable for doing more than that, and sometimes we let ourselves off the hook too soon ---- and we surely never know another's personal best in their own circumstances and experiences.

[DH]

I don't worry about who may or may not enter (or abide in, or whatever) the Celestial Kingdom. I think the kingdoms of glory concept is metaphorical, referring to God's kindness and mercy in giving to everyone as much glory and happiness as they will receive. From an earthbound perspective, the Sun is the brightest/most glorious object in the sky, the Moon is next, and then the stars and planets. So the number three is natural when you want to make a metaphor about differening levels of glory. Besides, trying to determine who will go to which kingdom sounds perilously close to judging people.

Also, I am no longer interested in living my life in such a way that is calculated to bring me the greatest "blessings"/payment in the next life, or earn me a "right" to a key to the Celestial Kingdom gated community. Rather, I strive to live the happiest, most honorable, most blessed life I can right now, figuring that if it brings happiness in this life, it will bring happiness in the next life, too. Do I want a happy family life in the eternities? Then I'd better make darn sure I treat them right in this life. God can, and I imagine will, fix a lot of things, like giving us perfect bodies, healing mental illnesses, etc., but he won't force us to behave well in the next life any more than he does in this life.

Edited June 24, 2013 by DH

[Vanguard]

I suspect most of the "not valiant" are sitting in church pews most Sundays.

In our Priesthood lesson today (I taught) we discussed that God is not really interested in checkboxes but what we are. Keeping the commandments is critical but only if it changes us. That being said our spirits are housed in a flawed tabernacle with a brain subject to all kinds of weaknesses we did not choose. Within these constraints we can improve the spirit within. The real test is what is left when we leave it. I suspect there are outwardly "good" people who are really just coasting off of lucky genes and a good upbringing while there are "bad" people dealing with broken brains and psychological issues from a rotten upbringing who appear horrible but are actually showing all the light they can and when God removes the problems we will find a saint inside. C.S. Lewis once remarked that in the balance of heaven one person performing a mild act of kindness may count as much as another man giving up his life.

So no, I do not think we can know what kingdom someone will go to. We might have guesses and, if we are close to them and are discerning, may even be right. Revelation might let someone declare it. God knows. I also believe we can know our own standing through asking.

As to this atheist I suspect God has mercies we do not suspect that will save more then we may have hoped. I could be wrong though.

Well said. And I agree. The problem lies in the myriad quotes, passages, talks, lessons over the entire duration of the restored gospel that seem to favor a behavioral precription for justification in a particular kingdom. You know, the "murderers shall not inherit this kingdom" kinds of lines. If judgment must ultimately pass through the "prism of each man's capacity" (my phrase) then ultimately no behavior will necessarily preclude one from any kingdom.

In reference to my initial quote from lds.org, conventional wisdom has it that those "full functioning" adults who have left the church after having been baptized while an adult have forfeited the highest kingdom should they remain on this trajectory for the rest of their life. In light of what you and I are talking about, this simply cannot be the case. Though it may well be true for some, it is not a "litmus" for all nor is literally any other behavior. IMO, I believe the Church leadership would ultimately conceded this point and that being the case, why do we still have so many "behavioral litmuses" suggesting certain folks are definately not going to make it?

[Ahab]

This...which may definitely include those who were members and then rejected or left for any reasons.

I have no clue what percentage of people have had a well enough informed opportunity in mortality (preSpirit Prison/Paradise where those who didn't get a full opportunity will get it) that God will hold them accountable for leaving to the point of them being not in the CK no matter what happens in Spirit Prison (of course it won't happen because they have already made that choice, not because God didn't give them a chance there). There may be very few, there may be billions. I tend to lean toward few...whether that is my optimism or low opinion of people being able to accurately discern the truth to significant levels, I can't tell, perhaps a little of both.

Personally I think those who have been willing to be blinded by others have already demonstrated (to God and themselves, the rest of us don't mindread so wouldn't be able to tell) that they do not desire to live in the CK so I don't see too many disappointed people there. I don't see people's 'assignment' to the lower kingdoms as a punishment, but rather a blessing because I assume that is where they will want to be. I can see someone who makes a different assumption, that those in the lower kingdoms will resent not having the opportunities in the higher ones, seeing them as punishment but I figure any punishment/balancing of karma**** is over with by the time we move into that stage of our existence.

*****the second is my view, I don't even think the suffering in hell is what we tend think of as punishment but rather again a gift that allows one to be purified if not sanctified to allow one to have access to eternal heavens even if not the Celestial one. This may however be due to my psychology training that didn't think much of the long term effectiveness of positive punishment (technical term for applying an aversive stimuli to decrease a behaviour as opposed to negative punishment which is to remove a positive stimuli to decrease behaviour) when it came to changing behaviour, reinforcement working much, much better IIRC. This is apparently debated still though, but I figure God has got operant conditioning down pat so he knows which works best and when for each individual....if only psychologists were half as good.

What do you think about the part the "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" part refers to?

I believe it refers to how all of us can receive a testimony from God to know what is true if we will do what is required to receive a testmony from God of the truth. Those who excrcise faith in God and God's ability to share the truth will get it, and those who don't just won't when they otherwise could have by having faith that God can tell them what is true.

Thus the answer to question in the OP is really that simple. We can discern from an individual’s actions/inactions which kingdom he will inherit, as God will judge all of us by our works.

[Vanguard]

What do you think about the part the "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" part refers to?

I believe it refers to how all of us can receive a testimony from God to know what is true if we will do what is required to receive a testmony from God of the truth. Those who excrcise faith in God and God's ability to share the truth will get it, and those who don't just won't when they otherwise could have by having faith that God can tell them what is true.

Thus the answer to question in the OP is really that simple. We can discern from an individual’s actions/inactions which kingdom he will inherit, as God will judge all of us by our works.

And this is the problem I am speaking of. What "actions/inactions" from an individual helps me to "discern" which kingdom said individual will inherit? And in terms of God judging us by our works, I believe he will judge us by our works as they are "informed" by our capacity to do these works. Because no man knows my capacity, he therefore cannot discern to which kingdom I will go. Referring back to the OP atheist, his argument is that we have already decided where he won't/will go despite that fact that he claims having followed his conscience in leaving the church. You can see how we get ourselves into a conondrum when we make claims about his final destination.

[rpn]

The purpose of those scriptures that identify specific actions is to warn mortals so they can avoid the issues. It isn't to bind God who judges as much on what is a person's ability, knowledge, and intentions, as He does on the act itself. And Alma makes it clear that without knowing the law, you cannot sin. That means that it cannot be only the act.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Just tell not to Hurt children and not sin against the Holy Ghost...we I say this its means the shedding of innocent blood.

[Bikeemikey]

Recently, I had an exchange with an atheist on a Christian apologetics site re: the LDS stance on who will and who won’t make it to the Celestial Kingdom. This atheist’s position was that should he continue on his current trajectory during this mortality (i.e., staying away from Church affiliation after having severed ties several years ago as an adult), he will not be found in the Celestial Kingdom according to LDS doctrine. He bolstered this position by quoting from lds.org where it states -

Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable

people “who were blinded by the craftiness of men” (D&C 76:75). This

group will include members of the Church who were “not valiant in the testimony

of Jesus”(D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to

receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the post-mortal spirit

world (see D&C 76:73-74).

Is this really all there is to it? Can we discern from an individual’s actions/inactions which kingdom he will inherit (in this case, the Terrestrial) should he continue on the course he’s on?

To inherit the celestial kingdom all you need is a celestial body.

[The Nehor]

Well said. And I agree. The problem lies in the myriad quotes, passages, talks, lessons over the entire duration of the restored gospel that seem to favor a behavioral precription for justification in a particular kingdom. You know, the "murderers shall not inherit this kingdom" kinds of lines. If judgment must ultimately pass through the "prism of each man's capacity" (my phrase) then ultimately no behavior will necessarily preclude one from any kingdom.

In reference to my initial quote from lds.org, conventional wisdom has it that those "full functioning" adults who have left the church after having been baptized while an adult have forfeited the highest kingdom should they remain on this trajectory for the rest of their life. In light of what you and I are talking about, this simply cannot be the case. Though it may well be true for some, it is not a "litmus" for all nor is literally any other behavior. IMO, I believe the Church leadership would ultimately conceded this point and that being the case, why do we still have so many "behavioral litmuses" suggesting certain folks are definately not going to make it?

I would suggest that anyone fully capable of understanding the litmuses will be judged by them so they are true. As we are not supposed to be judging the eternal destination of anyone but ourselves (assuming no callings or revelation to the contrary) this is sufficient.

[Vanguard]

I would suggest that anyone fully capable of understanding the litmuses will be judged by them so they are true. As we are not supposed to be judging the eternal destination of anyone but ourselves (assuming no callings or revelation to the contrary) this is sufficient.

I don't know that I understand you. What do you mean by "fully capable of understanding the litmuses"? How does one get to that point? What are these litmuses? My position has been that there can be none. Or is it simply a personal matter between the indivdual and the Lord? Is it really just about understanding?

[The Nehor]

I don't know that I understand you. What do you mean by "fully capable of understanding the litmuses"? How does one get to that point? What are these litmuses? My position has been that there can be none. Or is it simply a personal matter between the indivdual and the Lord? Is it really just about understanding?

Not sure what I meant. I was half asleep when I wrote it. I think I meant that the scriptural injunctions are valid against those capable of understanding them.

Then again it may have been a coded message about the Lord Xenu/Illuminati alliance.

Edited June 26, 2013 by The Nehor

[Ahab]

And this is the problem I am speaking of. What "actions/inactions" from an individual helps me to "discern" which kingdom said individual will inherit? And in terms of God judging us by our works, I believe he will judge us by our works as they are "informed" by our capacity to do these works. Because no man knows my capacity, he therefore cannot discern to which kingdom I will go. Referring back to the OP atheist, his argument is that we have already decided where he won't/will go despite that fact that he claims having followed his conscience in leaving the church. You can see how we get ourselves into a conondrum when we make claims about his final destination.

The complexity of the situation comes when we don't know whether or not a person will change his/her ways before that person is judged by God who will then determine where he/she will go based on his/her actions and God's laws. Someone who says they won't change may still change before the deadline on the day of judgment.

For example if it is a law of God that a person must be baptized properly and by the proper authority to enter the kingdom of heaven pertaining to the celestial order, then that means that if a person isn't baptized properly and by the proper authority that person will not enter into the celestial order of heaven. Now suppose that you know a man who hasn't been baptized properly and by the proper authority, and he either says he refuses and is going to refuse forever or that he believes he has been but actually hasn't been yet. He still may, though, if he still has the time and finds out what he needs to do to get it done properly.

[Vanguard]

The complexity of the situation comes when we don't know whether or not a person will change his/her ways before that person is judged by God who will then determine where he/she will go based on his/her actions and God's laws. Someone who says they won't change may still change before the deadline on the day of judgment.

For example if it is a law of God that a person must be baptized properly and by the proper authority to enter the kingdom of heaven pertaining to the celestial order, then that means that if a person isn't baptized properly and by the proper authority that person will not enter into the celestial order of heaven. Now suppose that you know a man who hasn't been baptized properly and by the proper authority, and he either says he refuses and is going to refuse forever or that he believes he has been but actually hasn't been yet. He still may, though, if he still has the time and finds out what he needs to do to get it done properly.

Using your example, are you suggesting this man will not be able to enter the CK because he wasn't convinced - while in this mortality - that the LDS baptism was necessary? I know many great, Christian people who refuse this offer and most likely will to their dying day. Are they therefore precluded from entering?

[Ahab]

Using your example, are you suggesting this man will not be able to enter the CK because he wasn't convinced - while in this mortality - that the LDS baptism was necessary?

First of all, if it is a law of God that a person must be baptized properly and by the proper authority to enter the celestial order of heaven.... if that is God's law... then if someone doesn't get baptized property and by the proper authority that person will not enter into the celestial order of heaven. Plain and simple, whatever the reason why the person didn't get baptized properly and by the proper authority.

Now we know there's a little more complexiity to it than that, because we know it doesn't apply to people who are younger than 8 years old, and we also know the timing plays an important factor, but after all is said and done if it is true that a person hasn't been baptized properly and by the proper authority, after having the opportunity to do it, then that preson will not be entering into the celestial order of heaven. And the reason why not is because it is God's law that a person must be to enter that order of heaven.

I know many great, Christian people who refuse this offer and most likely will to their dying day. Are they therefore precluded from entering?

They still have the opportunity to change their mind until the deadline on their day of judgment. If they haven't been by then they will have been told the law and they will have had the opportunity to accept it. And if they don't it will be because they refused to comply with God's law.